The Devil's dead. Now we can all do as we like! ([info]cribbins) wrote in [info]doctorwho,
@ 2006-08-29 15:42:00
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Current mood:amused

Liz Shaw: Supah-staw (you try getting it to rhyme)
Okey doke. Veteran media journalist Rob Buckley (he writes about the telly) has been reminiscing about some of his favourite TV characters. Notably, he lists Liz Shaw among them, citing her as 'a far more feminist character than basically any other companion'. His eulogising somewhat sticks the knife into Sarah Jane:

'Liz Shaw: Old-school Doctor Who fans will cite Sarah Jane Smith as the first "feminist character". A few will cite Zoe, who was allegedly smarter than the Doctor, but frankly all she did was scream a lot while wearing a sparkly cat suit. But four seasons before Sarah Jane came along and started refusing to make coffee for the Doctor and demanding that everyone take her seriously, Liz Shaw was simply making everyone take her seriously.

A few comparison points for you
  1. Liz Shaw got hired as scientific advisor to the most important military operation in the country because she was pretty much the smartest human being in Britain at the time. Sarah Jane… wasn't.

  2. Almost all Doctor Who companions scream. Liz Shaw screamed once - it was more like a yelp actually - when she was pushed off a bridge towards a raging weir. Sarah Jane screamed every single episode (disclaimer: may not actually be true, but it felt like it)

  3. In her first story, Liz Shaw saved the whole world and the Doctor by fixing the very complicated piece of alien machinery the Doctor had built using her brain, rather than twatting it one with a mallet; he was indisposed, being attacked by an alien octopus thing, so Liz Shaw saved the day. Sarah Jane once talked a robot that had fallen in love with her into almost giving up. Once. Oh yeah, and in that spin-off series, she beat up a market gardener.

  4. The only time Liz Shaw was ever captured by baddies, it was because they were specifically trying to abduct her - she was the only one smart enough to do the things they needed doing. Sarah Jane was abducted every story as a recreational sport.
As you can see, Liz Shaw much better and a far more feminist character than basically any other companion before and after. Including Ace and Rose Tyler. She also a good sense of humour, spending most of the time taking the piss out of the Doctor and the Brigadier. Plus she went to Cambridge. So there.

Yet completely forgotten in favour of Sarah Jane! Oh the injustice of it all.'
Buckley's also briefly quite nice about Turlough, but I don't suppose anyone's interested in that bit.

Edit: Rob Buckley has replied to some of the responses made here in the comments thread at his own site.



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[info]verlaine
2006-08-29 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Liz Shaw is forgotten BECAUSE she went to Cambridge :P

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[info]ladyvivien
2006-08-29 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. All the cool people got rejected from Oxbridge. Or at least, that's what my Mum told me...

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[info]miss_s_b
2006-08-29 03:18 pm UTC (link)
That man is right.

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[info]bibliophile1887
2006-08-29 03:21 pm UTC (link)
I've always preferred Liz to Jo and Sarah Jane.

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[info]aerynstales
2006-08-29 03:26 pm UTC (link)
There is very little I do not agree with in this (the exception being disinterest in Turlough... :D). I noticed Liz's saving of the day in Spearhead From Space right off. She had like 5 degrees and used her brain. She may have ended up being the Doctor's assistant, but she was a mind to be reckoned with on her own. She was doing quite a bang up job too for UNIT before the Doctor came along.

And who doesn't love a woman that can dish it right back out to the Brigadier (bless his camoflage socks) and make him back down.

I know she went back to Cambridge to her important research project...but I miss her all the same.

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[info]tree_and_leaf
2006-08-29 07:57 pm UTC (link)
Her one flaw was being a Cambridge woman, if you ask me. But I do admire that level of devotion to science and academia!

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[info]satanicharisma
2006-08-29 03:29 pm UTC (link)
hahah

I would have definitely liked to see more of Liz. FOur stories just wasn't sufficient, and I think that has got more to do with her underrated status than anything else. It would have been great to see her travelling in the TARDIS, too.

I like Turlough. Whatswrongwithat huh????

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[info]londonkds
2006-08-29 03:34 pm UTC (link)
I love his comments about Rose in Doomsday

But frankly, this 'great separation' was more on a par with a 19-year-old woman finding her much older boyfriend, who she's never slept with or even so much as properly kissed, has been sent overseas and she can't afford the plane ticket to go and visit him. Oh no, I'm never going to love like this again. I'm just going to have to stay in this country with my recently resurrected millionaire Dad, my mum, my new brother or sister and my now-beefcake ex-boyfriend. Oh boo hoo.

Pah. Bloody teenagers. 'Died'? You'll get over him in a couple of months. Plus he'll probably be back anyway.

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[info]shishmish
2006-08-29 03:39 pm UTC (link)
Oh that's just tooo good *lmao*

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[info]nostalgia_lj
2006-08-29 05:21 pm UTC (link)
It's funny because it's true!

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[info]kaoru_is_here
2006-08-29 03:41 pm UTC (link)
I've always been a bit surprised about the fact that she's a "forgotten companion" although she's in the most popoular Pertwee-season. If not one of the most popoular seasons of them all. Anyway, she's one of my favourites, too.

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[info]nostalgia_lj
2006-08-29 05:20 pm UTC (link)
Liz didn't get her tits out as much as Jo did.

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(no subject) - [info]kaoru_is_here, 2006-08-29 05:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 05:26 pm UTC

[info]mimisoliel
2006-08-29 03:42 pm UTC (link)
I do agree. I liked Liz. Thanks for the post.

I think Sara generally gets more credit because she brought more of the Doctor's emotions for a companion out, than most other companions, on a regular basis.

Well, within the constraints of Doctor Who story-telling of the time.

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[info]sunyata_digest
2006-08-29 03:51 pm UTC (link)
thanks vmuch for sharing that!

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[info]shadowkitty
2006-08-29 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I do wish people wouldn't build up their favourite characters by tearing others down! That said, I don't disagree with any of the points made about Liz

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[info]bubonicplague
2006-08-29 04:15 pm UTC (link)
Word on that. I loved Liz. I loved Sarah Jane.

Plus, it... kinda defeats the purpose of calling a character feminist while tearing another woman down, Buckley.

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(no subject) - [info]vampadvocate, 2006-08-29 04:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 04:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 05:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-29 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 05:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-29 05:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 06:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 05:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 05:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-29 05:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 05:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aervir, 2006-08-29 05:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aervir, 2006-08-29 06:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 06:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aervir, 2006-08-29 08:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 08:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aervir, 2006-08-29 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aervir, 2006-08-29 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]livii, 2006-08-29 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aervir, 2006-08-29 08:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]livii, 2006-08-29 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aervir, 2006-08-29 08:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]livii, 2006-08-29 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-29 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]livii, 2006-08-29 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 06:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 06:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 06:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-29 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 07:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubonicplague, 2006-08-29 08:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-29 06:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vampadvocate, 2006-08-29 07:05 pm UTC

[info]ladyvivien
2006-08-29 05:24 pm UTC (link)
I'd have to agree, although that isn't necessarily belittling Sarah's general kick-assity. I think she's actually stronger in some of the Third Doctor episodes - Monster of Peladon, for example, where she has a great little speech about women's lib. With Four, she's a lot dorkier and cuter, which sometimes works well, and sometimes doesn't. Liz definitely took less shit from anyone - I can't imagine her succumbing to hypnosis left, right and centre the way Sarah does. I think the fact that she's a self-defined women's libber counts for a lot - she might not always practise what she preaches, but at least she's willing to describe herself as a feminist. That said, I think that School Reunion scuppered that slightly - I can't believe that any self-respecting woman would wait around for a man who never even said he was coming back, let alone for thirty-odd years. Liz Shaw is probably secretly ruling the world by now. But newsflash - you can have more than one feminist character, and you can have more than one type of feminist. One isn't necessarily better than the other. Sarah might have a tendancy to fall down three foot cliffs and get kidnapped, but she can and does step up to the plate when she needs to.

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[info]ed_zeppelin
2006-08-29 05:28 pm UTC (link)
A few will cite Zoe, who was allegedly smarter than the Doctor, but frankly all she did was scream a lot while wearing a sparkly cat suit.

Au contraire, she only screamed in The Mind Robber - and there he his praising Liz for only screaming in one story too. Tsk tsk. Bearing in mind that Zoe had more stories than Liz, that's actually a lesser scream rate. I agree with a lot of his points but I turn my nose up at that.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with a sparkly catsuit? More specifically, a sparkly catsuit with Wendy Padbury inserted in it?

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[info]ed_zeppelin
2006-08-29 05:29 pm UTC (link)
Actually, Liz screams more than that. Cliffhanger to part two of The Silurians.

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(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-29 05:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nostalgia_lj, 2006-08-29 06:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cribbins, 2006-08-29 06:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cribbins, 2006-08-29 06:48 pm UTC

[info]ctanworldkiller
2006-08-29 06:10 pm UTC (link)
Liz Shaw is my favourite companion too.

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[info]ladyvivien
2006-08-29 07:12 pm UTC (link)
I either read or heard an interview with Elisabeth Sladen where she talked about how much she screamed as Sarah, and she made the point that if you're being menaced by a giant scary alien, screaming your head off is actually a pretty logical course of action. And it doesn't automatically mean, 'oh, big strong man come and save me!' - it can also mean 'holy FUCK, that's a giant scary alien', or 'get the hell away from me!' I think you can make a pretty compelling argument that a blanket criticism of the screaming actually supresses the female voice, as well as being an attempt to silence or belittle perfectly natural emotions that just happen to be labelled 'feminine'. OK, so sometimes beating the crap out of a dalek with a baseball bat is going to do more direct good, but the voice can also be a weapon, and some of these women had pretty powerful lungs!

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[info]neohippie
2006-08-30 01:00 am UTC (link)
Besides, do any of the guys scream?

How many times has THE DOCTOR screamed?

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(no subject) - [info]ladyvivien, 2006-08-30 01:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]steph_emu, 2006-08-30 09:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarahjanex, 2006-08-30 08:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]steph_emu, 2006-08-30 10:37 am UTC

[info]tree_and_leaf
2006-08-29 07:36 pm UTC (link)
Hurrah! Liz Shaw love!

Sarah Jane was great - but Liz will always be my favourite, and it's a crying shame that there weren't more stories involving her.

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[info]vivelabagatelle
2006-08-29 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Nice to see someone a) remembering and b) bigging up Liz. I always though they should have teamed her up with that Ruth whatshername woman who was inadvertantly the Master's hench wench in "The Time Monster" for a spin off - they could have taken over the universe in a calm, collected and brainy way whilst griping about misogynistic Timelords!

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[info]daniel_saunders
2006-08-29 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Liz was great, although I agree with whoever it was (sorry, can't remember and I haven't time to scroll through all those comments to check) who wished people could praise one character without criticising others.

Zoe was also great and I don't know why Mr Buckley thinks she didn't do anything. Who destroyed the cyberfleet, hmm? And made the computer in the Land of Fiction self-destruct? And was always using her photographic memory or fixing hi-tech equipment, with or without the Doctor? Zoe "the Doctor's almost as clever as I am" Herriot!

Barbara was also a lot more proactive than the stereotype of her as a screaming, middle class, middle aged, out of date history teacher suggests: just watch her bluffing her way into the Dalek control room in The Dalek Invasion of Earth - and that's far from her best story.

Anyway, getting back to Liz. One thing no one ever seems to mention is the rather odd relationship she has with the Doctor, which perhaps is why she is a bit ignored. Admittedly, they share surprisingly little screen-time together, usually being separated for plot reasons, perhaps a consequence of a companion who is not just as brave and intelligent as the Doctor, but as knowledgeable too (we tend to mistakenly see intelligence and knowledge as much the same thing, but they're not: Leela was clever, but she had no scientific knowledge). Still, their relationship does bear closer examination. It seems very formal. There aren't many of the little jokes we associate with the really close companion relationships and which both of them have with the Brigadier. Their relationship does seem tied to their work and it's certainly difficult to imagine them holidaying together on Metebelis 3 or Florana. On the other hand, perhaps due to the acting, they both seem completely at ease around each other and they very quickly develop a total trust in each other. Liz never behaves like this around other characters, neither does the Doctor during this season. Perhaps at this stage neither feels able to develop any kind of closer friendship (both have been unwillingly uprooted from the life they knew and thrown into the military, which neither of them have a high opinion of) and is just glad to be working with someone who isn't only interested in blowing things up.

One thing I have always wondered though: Liz seems fairly young, but apparently she has degrees in medicine, physics and a dozen other subjects, some of which must be postgraduate degrees. Even if the Brigadier is exaggerating when he says "a dozen" other degrees, they must have all taken a while (medicine in particular is a very long course), but I wouldn't put her age above mid-thirties (although I am a particularly bad judge of these things), so how did she do them all?

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[info]cribbins
2006-08-30 08:45 am UTC (link)
Yes, the Brigadier states Liz is 'an expert in meteorites, degrees in medicine, physics and a dozen other subjects.' What's not immediately clear is whether that means fourteen degrees, or a degree in medicine plus another degree in physics which incorporates digressions (specialisations) in other areas, or some state in between. And then there's the fact that medical degree schemes offer intercalated BSc's in a related discipline for an extra year's study. Moreover, we don't know how young she was when starting her first degree, or whether she finished some qualifications in less time than they normally take or if she studied some subjects concurrently.

And so on. If we take into account that she's a clever clogs of a science fictional universe, there's sufficient room to manoeuvre.

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[info]neohippie
2006-08-30 01:15 am UTC (link)
I too don't like it when people have to express their love for something by tearing down something else.

Also, I tend to think Doctor Who in general has very good female characters. The "useless screamer" idea is SO overblown. I'd like to see an actual count of how many times all the characters on DW screamed (including guys and the Doctor) just to see how they really did.

And also, in some situations, I think screaming would be entirely appropriate. Don't you dare tell me if a giant rat was chewing your leg off you wouldn't scream.

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[info]cribbins
2006-08-30 08:49 am UTC (link)
Sorry, are you talking to me at this point or just questioning for rhetorical effect?

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(no subject) - [info]neohippie, 2006-08-30 12:36 pm UTC

[info]orange_groves
2006-08-30 01:18 am UTC (link)
Well, Barbara certainly didn't take attitude from Ian or the Doctor at some points.....

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[info]chicafrom3
2006-08-30 03:30 am UTC (link)
Bless. Barbara deserves a lot more love and respect; she was a great, strong character.

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[info]endless_psych
2006-08-30 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Methinks perhaps people are taking the tearing people down thing a bit seriously. I think the overall tone is intended to be comedic so its not really an excuse to start burning Bras...

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