deleterius: Meyshi, Phase 2 : Legalisation

Jeron Kidd (

roaringbrute) wrote in

deleterius,
@ 2007-12-23 16:40:00

Current location:	Under My Bed
Current mood:	scared

Meyshi, Phase 2 : Legalisation
I know it's a while since I posted here, and I've never been outspoken about fandom-issues before, sans the Meyshi-debacle of some months back. However, recent discussion with online friends have led me to campaign for knowledge of a new organisation which I deem is a threat to the future of communities like this one, and a defense for wannabe-writers such as aforementioned Meyshi.

The new organization is called the "Organization for Transformative Works." (Livejournal, InsaneJournal) They are an fan advocacy group. In their mission statement, they say, and I quote :

"We envision a future in which all fannish works are recognized as legal and transformative and are accepted as a legitimate creative activity. We are proactive and innovative in protecting and defending our work from commercial exploitation and legal challenge. We preserve our fannish economy, values, and creative expression by protecting and nurturing our fellow fans, our work, our commentary, our history, and our identity while providing the broadest possible access to fannish activity for all fans."

This group envisions a future in which female-oriented and dominated content overshadows the male-oriented, for reasons that are perfectly clear: this is an endeavour to make a hobby something more substantial. These are highly educated, English speaking, white women who want their hobby to be not embarassing. I resent the implication that fandom is benefited by women being the major part of it, and only women. The organization preaches for all of fandom, despite the obvious truth that it is NOT. Note that though women are a majority on sites like FF.net, there is still a substantial 39% that is male:

"The stickiest site on the Internet. Ranked #462 on Alexa. According to comScore Media Metrix the site's user base is 61% female (75% according to internal surveys), 58% are 18+, and 65% have household incomes exceeding $60,000."

"Beyond this initial set-up, the board will be elected by members of the OTW (yes, paying members - donations and membership fees will support the operation of the OTW)."

OTW charges a fee of some 10 bucks for access to their little election, which is to represent fandom. Note that 42% of FanFiction.Net's users are under 18, and has no legal way to pay this fee and thus join the election (or is even allowed to.) - so how much of this is representing fandom, and how much is getting the richest and most adamant of fandom-members to join up and advocate something a bare minimum agrees on?

I was involved with the Meyshi thing and I'm undecided about this. What side would OTW come down on? It seems obvious that OTW would support Meyshi, because Meyshi's claim was basically that she had the right to send a DMCA takedown notice as her story was independently copyrightable. As OTW claims they want fanworks to be "recognized as legal and transformative," then Meyshi would have been within her rights, according to OTW. Am I interpretting this right? Is OTW creating a situation where sporkers would have to live in fear of fan authors because fan authors would have the legal right to do that because their work is copyrightable? Or would OTW support the sporkers, like us, protecting us against legal threats from idiots like Meyshi? Knowing what problems we had with a delusional kid like Meyshi trying to set up everyone against communities like this one, what could a real organization, backed by plenty of people, do to mess up our harmless fun?

I'm not the only one who is ambivilent (Hell, angry) about this organization. John Scalzi is too. Lee Goldberg finds them laughable. People in fandom have problems with them, as is all too understandable.

Is OTW good for us sporkers? Is it an organization of glorified Meyshi-supporters? Is it a walking, talking lawsuit, just waiting to happen? What are your thoughts?

(Post a new comment)

	morzsa 2007-12-23 05:54 pm UTC (link)
	I think it will be groups like this--or the OTW themselves--who willm ake the real copyright owners crack down on fanfic and fanart. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	faelynleaf 2007-12-23 06:07 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed. This is a REALLY bad idea. Authors generously allow us to use their characters, and are being nice about not making fan fiction a legal issue. This new campaign is an abuse of that generosity, and any move to take fan fiction out of that legal grey area will only result in publishers cracking down. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	twistdfateangel 2007-12-23 06:14 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed that this will come back to bite them. (Reply to this) (Parent)

elfwreck
2008-01-01 09:20 pm UTC (link)

This campaign is not an abuse of that generosity... Fanlib is, with its sponsored contests and "bring fanfiction out of the shadows!" campaigns. OTW is a direct reaction to the growing mainstream and coporate media attention fanfic is getting... followed by "isn't that only legal if it's properly endorsed?"

OTW wants to be able to say, "no, it's legal even if the original writer objects." And they want an archive that won't start deleting huge swaths of users because of a wrongful DMCA or C&D notice. (Or hell, even with a fully legal and correct DMCA or C&D notice... announcement that a single story or vid violates copyright doesn't mean everything that person creates breaks laws somehow.)

The OTW didn't decide to challenge the grey area... Anne Rice did that. TSR did that, years ago, when they sent C&D notices to ftp archives of RPG stuff. Meyshi did that, in claiming the right to shut down parodies she didn't like (based on her stuff based someone else's stuff, a fine legal tangle to begin with).

(Disclaimer: I don't work for OTW in any way. I just like what I understand of their goals.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

mcpo_john117
2007-12-23 06:11 pm UTC (link)

Agreed in full that this is a terrible, awful idea.
Also, I resent the implication that I, as a male fanfic writer, am somehow less valid a member of a fandom due to my gender - it's one thing for OTW to want some sort of... legitimacy to their hobby, but to discriminate on top of expecting unreasonable demands and rights is ridiculous.
Fanfiction is fanfiction is fanfiction, and that's the way it should stay. We don't need legal recognition to be able to enjoy our work, we're supposed to be doing this for the fun, not the recognition.
And no, I don't think it would hurt us Sporkers in the end, if we played our cards right with the Fair Use Doctrine and regulations regarding satire.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	indongcho 2007-12-23 07:33 pm UTC (link)
	Yup. Certainly we don't want to steal the fics we spork. The world would end before I claimed ownership of Celebrian or Unknown!! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	zonga 2007-12-23 07:38 pm UTC (link)
	Also, wouldn't sporkers fall under the same "transformative" definition? Sporkers transform the original works into a readable parody/satire format. The language is fuzzy enough to push that issue. (Reply to this) (Parent)

shanrina
2007-12-23 06:28 pm UTC (link)

In the long run, I think this will hurt pro authors (like Naomi Novik, who started this thing and who is also the author of the Temeraire series--wtf?) and fandom if it ever gets off the ground. I actually don't think it'll be too bad for us sporkers, though, because it's satire. And if worst comes to worst, I think we can also claim what we do as "transformative"--transforming the suckitudinously bad into the funny.

Seriously, though, I think this is a bad idea. And I'm suddenly very glad I've never spent a penny on one of Novik's books, something I don't plan to do anytime in the near future either.

*crosses her fingers that this thing falls flat on its face, and bookmarks it to keep an eye on it*

(Reply to this)

emma_moon
2007-12-23 06:29 pm UTC (link)

I think OTW is a terrible idea and I wonder what the hell those people are thinking by starting that site.

I love fan fiction and fan art. I love that we get to play a bit in worlds that we love and that the authors allow us to, but idiots like those at OTW are going to screw it up for the rest of us.

And I've read some awesome stories from male fan fiction writers. To say they aren't worthy in the fandom world as female writers is stupid.

I don't think it will affect sporkers... I enjoy reading the sporks on this community and others and would be very sad to see that go away.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

icecreamempress
2007-12-27 11:48 pm UTC (link)

The OTW mission statement doesn't say anything about male fan fiction writers being unworthy; I think people are responding to the OP's characterization of the mission statement as though it were the actual mission statement.

What the mission statement does say about sex and gender is this:

"2. We value our identity as a predominantly female community with a rich history of creativity and commentary.

5. We value infinite diversity in infinite combinations. We value all fans engaged in transformative work: fans of any race, gender, culture, sexual identity, or ability. We value the unhindered cross-pollination and exchange of fannish ideas and cultures while seeking to avoid the homogenization or centralization of fandom."

I think OTW is a stupid idea, but I also think the OP's characterization of it as sexist against men is misleading.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

shadwing
2007-12-23 06:49 pm UTC (link)

I have to chime in, bad idea no where in this do I see where the original copyright holders rights are respected or even acknowledged, from what I read here this group would support SVA and RDR in their publication of the HP Lexicon in a For Profit Venture.

They are considering Fandom works and endevors completely separate from the original creators works, thusly entitled to the same protections and rights as the original work, which is basically a flawed concept. You wouldn't have the fannish works without the original works, thusly you must acknowledge the original and give credit, and you cannot expect the same protections and rights to a fannish work as you would if it was an original work and concept.

Dear gods this is rather scary, and I hope they step on toes now so they get slapped down quick.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	roaringbrute 2007-12-23 06:50 pm UTC (link)
	It reminds me eerily of the Meyshi debacle, and quite a people got a slap on the wrist when it was just an annoying teen crying murder. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

shadwing
2007-12-23 07:03 pm UTC (link)

Check out the LJ com where they claim that Fanfiction is neither illegal nor is it infringing, that is also a flawed concept, its legal as long as the copyright holders allow it.

Exhibit A) Anne Rice

And I think we are okay, since the same protections they are claiming for fan fiction also apply to our use of it in our sporks/parodies.

Exhibit B) The fact that we are still here despite repeated attempts to TOS this com and countless others across LJ.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

malganis
2007-12-23 09:00 pm UTC (link)

Check out the LJ com where they claim that Fanfiction is neither illegal nor is it infringing, that is also a flawed concept, its legal as long as the copyright holders allow it.

Actually, this is an interesting concept. I agree that technically fanfiction would be considered illegal, but it is still illegal if the creator (for example, Joss Whedon or J.K. Rowling) approve of fanfiction and publically give it their blessing? Because they may be the creators, but there are other entities that hold copyrights, etc. There are a lot of fingers in the pie.

Also, do you think writing/posting fanfiction is illegal/immoral when the author has expressed dislike of fanfiction based on his/her works, but has so far not taken any legal actions against it? I'm thinking specifically of George R.R. Martin, who's said that he dislikes fanfic and finds it a waste of time and talent, but as far as I know, he's not taken any action to specifically prevent it from getting on the Net in the sense that other authors have.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

shadwing
2007-12-23 11:53 pm UTC (link)

If the creators give fan works a nod either coming out and saying "Yes you can make Fan Works of my Works" or not explicity stating "No, don't do it" I don't think it's illegal. However permission given can easily be taken away by the owners and as fans we have to accept this simple truth;

We are only allowed to do what we do at the whims/blessing/permission of the copyright holders/creators, as long as we don't piss them off we are cool. But if you cross that line where ever it may lie prepare to be smacked and smacked HARD and to earn the scorn of your fellow fans while you are at it.

IMO this is a truth that is held to high regard in the 'old school' fandoms such as Star Wars and Star Trek, even when new fans to entered post new movies and such there were enough 'Old Timers' there to show them the ropes and the rules. Newer fandoms that have exploded online (HP and Buffy for example) have very few old timers to so them the ropes hence the lack of respect for the copyright holders/owners. And why we have crap like this showing up.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

elfwreck
2008-01-01 09:29 pm UTC (link)

If fanfiction is "technically illegal," then every 13-year-old who writes down "My Dream About Meeting Hannah Montana" is breaking the law. And there is something very wrong with that as a legal premise.

Copyright, unlike trademark rights, don't vanish if you don't protect them; authors (or whoever) are free to file suit against anyone they think is directly affecting their livelihood and ignore anything else, whether or not a court would find it infringing. Being a tort rather than a crime, the way the courts deal with the breach of law is drastically different from, say, theft or assault.

I'm rather baffled at Martin's stance, given that he edited a 12-book series of authors mixing fanfic with original characters in a shared setting. (Plus three other novels, but they weren't collaborations the way the first 12 were.) I'm not sure what he thinks "fanfic" is, if it excludes the "Wild Cards" stories.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	dinpik 2007-12-23 07:47 pm UTC (link)
	Some of us more cynical types are speculating that it's just a way for the acafen to stop getting snickered at by their fellow academics. Or a fandom power-grab. Either way, the paternalistic tone really grates. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ms_treesap 2007-12-23 08:20 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah; being talked down to like that is not going to appeal to the (sadly large) section of fandom who does write self-inserts etc, never mind people like us (journal users who do blogging as well as possibly other stuff)whom they seem to be aiming for. /wannabe acafen (Reply to this) (Parent)

	shadwing 2007-12-23 08:20 pm UTC (link)
	nods Did you note that Heidi is part of their legal team? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	malganis 2007-12-23 09:36 pm UTC (link)
	Who is Heidi? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dinpik 2007-12-23 10:00 pm UTC (link)
	Cassie Claire's primary defender whenever people mentioned CC's plagiarism, who did it herself. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	malganis 2007-12-24 02:13 am UTC (link)
	Ah, I thought I'd heard that name before. Thanks. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	dinpik 2007-12-23 09:57 pm UTC (link)
	Yes. And if they think her history of ~~homage~~ plagiarism won't be trotted out should they actually get a lawsuit, they're lying to themselves. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	malganis 2007-12-23 08:52 pm UTC (link)
	Either way, the paternalistic tone really grates. Shouldn't that be maternalistic? BIG MOMMA IS WATCHING YOU. (Reply to this) (Parent)

topazlily
2007-12-23 09:27 pm UTC (link)

I find it most unlikely this will get off the ground. I think if it came to a legal case the court would rule in favour of the original author. I doubt we're going to see major changes in copyright law because of this lot.

Actually, it would be nice in theory if fanfic writers had some guarantee against being sued... but in practice that's not an issue as long as the copyright holder has given permission. So what is this all about, really?

(Reply to this)

blueskypenguin
2007-12-23 10:28 pm UTC (link)

The whole thing is ridiculous. I can see the benefits, to stop internal plagiarism, but we have no right to the characters, situations or anything and any attempt to change that is going to end up with more publishers/writers/distributors asking their fans to cease and desist. It can only end badly for fandom as a whole.

And as for the gender aspect, I'm amazed at their stance! I'm sorry, but any proportion in double figures is substantial and if anything, it's unfair to discriminate against the men who agree with the mission statement and wish to join.

(Reply to this)

reverie_shadow
2007-12-23 10:52 pm UTC (link)

I've just read about this, so I haven't really gone and read all the sites and cracked this down to the very last detail. Although, looking at it from a writer's point of view, I have to think of it this way: I create my own original projects. I wouldn't mind if my fans were to borrow my characters and reality, just as long as they never lay claim to all my hard work and try to make money off it. The same goes for vice versa--if I'm using someone else's material, I better damn well double check to make sure credit goes where it's due, and I'm not stupid enough to try to make profit off it without consent.

What these people need to realize is that fandom is a privilege, not a right. As the creator, I am not obligated to bend over backwards to you; in fact it should be the other way around. It's my hard work, after all, and I'm simply letting you borrow it. But I could very well raise hell if you even dare do so much as start talking about my rigorous efforts being taken as your own when all you did was smack your name on it, and try to make it a copyright claim.

This is what pisses me off about these people: Fandom is already legitimized in its own right. Perhaps not in the way people would like, but we should just be grateful that companies/creators aren't throwing the ban hammer down on fanfiction and artwork (yet. After all, who knows what kind of shit this thing's going to stir. It certainly does rub me the wrong way).

Fucking ingrates, is what they are. I hope this thing gets blown to the ground. They should be appreciative of what they've got. I mean, I've got nothing with the fans expressing their love for what one creates; I've definitely got something against them talking about making it a legal issue. You do it for fun. You don't do it for money or for fame/popularity. If you feel any different, you've got no business writing in the first place.

(Reply to this)

ripplepaw_wind
2007-12-24 01:13 am UTC (link)

I basically agree with what's already been said. You should write fanfiction because you like it and not for fame, popularity, money or whatever else you can think of. Fanfiction is a hobby and should stay that way.

Some fanfic writers, however few, are talented enough with their ideas that they could get published, but publishing a fanfic? These authors are creative enough to write their own ORIGINAL work, not using other people's creations.

By making fanfiction publishable, it's as if you are stealing all of the hard work and creativity/imagination the author has worked on. Like said before, fanfiction is a privelage not a right. The author could easily say that writing fanfictions about their already published work isn't allowed. So don't take it for granted.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

carmarthen
2007-12-25 06:07 am UTC (link)

Fanfiction is a hobby and should stay that way.

I totally agree. And like all my other hobbies (sewing, archery, embroidery, reading, etc.), I'd like to not get sued for it. And I don't think it is or should be illegal in most cases (and history's behind me on fanfiction--bad as it sometimes is--as part of literature). But I also started out writing 100% legal, theoretically saleable fanfiction based on works in the public domain (is Alan Moore an immoral thief, too, or is his work okay because the original authors are long dead?).

I remain ambivalent about OTW, but I see a lot of odd assumptions being made about their motivations and just plain wrong things being said about the legal issues (legal, by the way, is not quite the same thing as copyrightable).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ripplepaw_wind 2007-12-25 10:16 pm UTC (link)
	"And like all my other hobbies (sewing, archery, embroidery, reading, etc.), I'd like to not get sued for it." I agree with that. I like my hobbies the way they are and keep me out of legal trouble. (Reply to this) (Parent)

gen_adrianfii
2007-12-24 02:10 am UTC (link)

I know I haven't posted anything here yet but I do want to throw my two cents in because it's important.
This "cause" if that's what they want to call it is not only offensive to every male fanfiction writers out there but.. *sighs* Not to sound completely liberal here, what about the transgendered fanfiction writers as well. That's a person beef of mine but by making it for women only, you're cutting out a HUGE part of the population.
More over... god, this is such a BAD idea because... Fan fiction is usually only tolerated by many writers because of the simple fact that it is a hobby that yields no money on the part of the fan fiction writer. Intellectual property can be used all anyone wants, so long as you are A. not claiming it is yours and copywrited to you and B. that you're not making any money off of it. This is just going to open up a WHOLE lot of can of worms...
Then again, it might not. I mean, there is the phenom of doujinshi, fan made comics.
Doujin writers make plenty of comics and even sell them so... maybe I'm wrong.
For me, personally, the difference comes down to this; Quality. Is the fan work worthy of honoring the original content? In the case of a lot of doujin, I'll say yes. But honest, I wouldn't pay $10 for a published book written by a writer of say Meyshi's quality.
But that's just me.
Sorry for rambling, this just really caught my eye.

(Reply to this)

serenanna
2007-12-24 04:15 am UTC (link)

(Surfing in via

metafandom)

I'm probably going to regret adding to this discussion in the morning, but here goes. I'm not involved with OTW or anything, but I'm actually hoping they succeed for several reason (get into that in a little), and I think you're all barking up the wrong trees IMHO.

All talk of profit aside, if the OTW succeeds, it's a victory for fair use under the current copyright laws. Fair use current covers a lovely little addition known as parody. Since sporking, MST3k-style fics are meant to be humor and critical, they fall under parody pretty easily, and are thus protected if it does go to court. Meyshi's case, if it would have gone to court, probably would have been laughed out anyway regardless of the legal status of fanfics because parody and criticism is legally precedented fair use (the Larry Flynt case), but because DMCA orders are an effective scare tactic, she won.

Currently, none of the authors on mega-sites such as FF.net, DevArt, worthy writers and artists or not, profit from the content they're providing, and they're providing a lot to the site maintainers. All of the ad revenue goes to the people operating the site, which for somewhere like FF.net with hundreds of thousands of fics and users has to be a huge profit after server costs. There's already been scandals before on Aff.net and the old Grey Archive of the owners essentially embezzling the site funds for their own use. Fanlib, the site that caused the OTW to start, has capital funneled into it in order to make it for profit, marketing and everything, with the goal of being the MySpace of fanfiction, just as big as FF.net if not bigger, and the people profiting from it certainly aren't the users, but do include the ex-CEO of Yahoo who could probably care less about any type of fans.

From what I understand of the OTW, politics aside, they are going to open their own archive and social networking site that will be legitimately non-for-profit, which means the authors on it probably won't profit off their fics there either, but at least no one else will be either. Personally, that's what I am looking at the most in this whole situation, all legalities, politics, and academic notions aside, that archive and how it will be run.

Regardless of if we want it or not thought, the legal debate will be settled eventually given the way the net is going. Very little is free anymore or without corporate funding. As fandom in general, media companies have our number already since we're so vocal about what we do and the ranks keep growing. After Potter ended, I saw more than a few articles that reccommended fanfiction to kids as an activity.

The way I see it, these companies will either try to sanitize us completely then make money off of us by selling our hard work for us, or will kill us off with C&D's if we can't do anything for them. And so, fandom can either adapt, organize, or fade away, and I kind of like fighting. OTW is just one organization, and really is not perfect, but at least they're doing something right? To me, their spirit seems to be in the right place even if their message isn't and I for one wish them luck, and am keeping my fingers crossed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	mcpo_john117 2007-12-24 07:32 am UTC (link)
	Meyshi, actually, did not win. When threatened with the prospect of Rowling's lawyers, she backed away with her tail between her legs. The only suspensions that occurred were those who didn't comply with the necessary legal requirements for contesting a DMCA. (Reply to this) (Parent)

morzsa
2007-12-24 09:18 am UTC (link)

of the owners essentially embezzling the site funds for their own use.

That is impossible. If they are the site owners, the funds generated belong to them. It is not embezzling. They provide the service of hosting other people's fanfic--after all those other people want their fanfic read by others, so they need the service, they are not the ones doing the service to the owner: they can set up sites for their own fanfic if they don't like the idea of the owner profiting from their hobby.

As someone who hosts blogs and archives, the ads and donations cover my server costs most months, but they don't cover the work I put into running the sites.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

serenanna
2007-12-24 12:52 pm UTC (link)

Um, it is embezzlement (to me at least) because of the sites I mentioned, Aff.net run off donations and a Cafepress shop in addition to ads and the Grey Archive runs exclusively on donations from users. Jaxxy, who runs Aff.net now, disappeared for six months with no contact while the Head Mod at the time took care of everything. Assuming Jaxxy was gone for good, she cut off her access to the site funds after she notice some suspicious transfers of money. As soon as that was done, Jaxxy magically came back the very next day and accused the Mod of stealing the site from her, etc. She now owns Aff.net exclusively and is still running it off of ads and donations.

The Grey Archive owner, Jase, used the additional site donations (at the time the expenses were about 250 a month) to build himself a go-cart in his garage. I do realize that it does take a lot of work for these sites to run, and that someone has to do it, but really big places like FF.net have hits in the millions, which is a whole other scale of money isn't it? I'm not an owner like you so I don't know. I have to ask though, if people are handing over money but it isn't going to it's intended use, then what is it if it's not embezzlement?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

morzsa
2007-12-24 01:07 pm UTC (link)

The biggest problem with these so called donations is that they are basically just giving money to a friend. As a gift. There is no receipt, no charity deductions, nothing. While it might be immoral, it is most likely not illegal to spend money you got on building a go-cart. There is a disclaimer on my sites saying that any profit made will be used depending on my choice: either recycling it to my site, or to buy me groceries so I can work on the sites.

I have to admit the whole AFF.net fiasco was rather entertainining from the sidelines, but I am sure it caused much grief and anger. And with hits in the millions the expenses are just as much higher than the income, and I think it does take at least one full time employee if not more to keep that site running.

I think the biggest problem is not the recognition of fanfic, but rather the unclarified expactations of archive owners and contributors. When I started my first site with a donation button I contacted the local equivalent of the IRS to find out how I can do this legally, as a hobby or as a business. Maybe that should be done more often.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Many Kinds of Bad

dfiantharlequin
2007-12-24 07:26 pm UTC (link)

The first thing about this that scares me as a fanfic writer is the goal of "legitimizing" fan fiction -- giving the writers of fan fiction some legal ownership of what is, when you strip away all the pretense, wholesale expropriation of other people's property. Like it or not, with every word we write, with every story we share, we are breaking the law. We are tolerated, in the main, by the rights owners because we are "just a bunch of fans". We're just a bunch of people writing our stories and sharing them with friends (or the world) and in the most part, no real threat to the rights owners. It looks very much to me like One True Way here (I just can't get around that TLA) is trying to change all that.

As someone who remembers the MZB debacle, and the loss to fandom of the Darkover fanzines, of the anthologies, of the right to play in Marion's world, that resulted from one greedy fan, this scares me more than a little. As long as we're living in the shadows, we have some safety through the "don't mind us, we're just playing" attitude; we're not a real threat to the creators' rights. But when we step out of those shadows and say "we have just as much legal right to your characters, your settings, your stories, as you do" then we are a threat, one that will get the attention of everyone from megacorporation legal departments to the authors who, as MZB once was, have been friendly or neutral to fan fiction.

The past decade has been a golden age for fan fiction writers. Rights owners, by and large, have been less paranoid about us, and the Internet has given us an enormous opportunity to share and enjoy what we do. We have benefited greatly from the benign neglect of the people who created the worlds we play in. But those worlds are still theirs. Those rights are still theirs. And when fans, any fans, start trying to turn that privilege into an entitlement, when there are noises that sound like claims of squatter's rights through adverse possession, then the rights owners can no longer afford to ignore us.

What I'm seeing here is like the classic case of city dwellers moving to a small town and demanding that it become more and more like the big city they left behind. They want to make fan fiction corporate, with themselves as the corporation. That is a total denial of the heart and soul of fanfic writing. Fan fiction is samizdat. It's piracy. It's freedom. It's counter-culture, it's punk, it's a life lived on the edge between legal and illegal, right and wrong. That is part of its appeal. It's a subculture where we can feel (even if mostly in self-delusion) that we are standing up for creativity and freedom and laughing in the face of The Man. We don't write it for money, or for academic acclaim, or for any other reason than it's just plain fun to write the stuff. Turning fanfic into something that some people, some BNFs, hope they can make money off of by holding out the promise to others that we, too, can join them in happy corporatization, with boards and committees and elections and annual dues, will benefit no one and destroy, if it succeeds, the very things that have made fanfic what it is; indeed, if they succeed in attracting the ire of certain large corporate interests, might even destroy fanfic as we know it today -- open, free, and thriving. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And for the love of God, don't break it!

Leave fan fiction alone.

There is no One True Way.

(Reply to this)

dustedangels
2007-12-25 01:52 am UTC (link)

The only thing fanfiction writers own are the plot bunnies that they/we use. Maybe an OC or two. Some good fanfiction writers, like desolate03 (I hope I have her pen name right) can incorporate MANY OCs without it seeming overboard. But that's all we own. And, because fanfiction writers are allowed to publish their works (so long as they make no money in doing so) due to the benevolence of the original fiction writers... then it is hypocritical at the very LEAST to stake a claim such as the one this group is aiming to.

At its worst, like others have said, it will bring down the lawyers on the fanfic writers, and NONE of it will be allowed.

My parents used a brilliant theory on me as I grew up: Share and play well with others, or don't play at all. Share your toys, or they'll be taken away.

This is that same concept. Share, or the big lawyers will take it all away from us.

We (fanfic writers) have a tentative respect for others' work if its good enough to earn that respect, and we do try to make our ideas somewhat original (though in this day and age, what really IS original anymore?) But sporking is no less legal (or more, for that matter) than what fanfic writers are doing. MST3King fics are brilliant as well, and should still be allowed just as much as fanfiction itself is allowed.

I agree whole-heartedly that if groups like these gain power and notoriety, it will only be a matter of time before fanfiction as we know it will be shut down for good.

Oh, it will still exist, yes. Just as Rice-ian fan fiction still exists, even on the web. But like Rice-ian fan fiction has gone somewhat underground (you need to really hunt for the stuff, and even then its hard to find *anything* good), so will ALL fan fiction.

Someone needs to point this out to this little group before they gain that power they seek. Do they even know about the dragon they're about to wake from its sleep? I hope some of us have hefty mylar... the world of fan fiction as we know it could get rather .... ehhh... hot.

Edit: I just thought I'd add a lovely bit Rowling herself created that might be rather applicable here: Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.

Edited at 2007-12-25 02:13 am UTC

(Reply to this)

A Question.

malganis
2007-12-26 05:15 am UTC (link)

If push comes to shove and heat is threatening to come down on fandom's collective heads, do you really think that the corporations will shut down fandoms' online expressions (fanfic, fanart, images, videos, and sounds) for good? Wouldn't that be poisoning the well and turn the fans against them?

While I'm not in favor of stealing people's stuff and profiting off it, I am in favor of new media and I think that the corporations need to open their eyes and see that instead of prematurely squashing it, it helps them. I watched Robot Chicken on Youtube and became a fan of it. I had no other opportunity or way to see it without Youtube. If the corporation that owns RC realized that it could use Youtube and similar things as promotional tools, they could get more fans like me who don't have cable or whatever station it comes on.

Fanfiction helps a fandom, and thus it helps that fandom's object of obsession. Fansites, fanart, all of this draws a fandom together and unifies it. It would really be in the best interest of a corporation if they ignored us and let us write our fics, share our images and our art, and have our sites, because we are their fanbase and we're the ones who buy their products. Cut that out and you've cut out the heart. The product will get less word of mouth, less attention paid to it, and less people being drawn into the fandom and staying for a longer time.

I can't imagine any major crack-down on fan expressions like fics and art NOT being disasterous for the corporations that own the properties. I remember the rancor that X-Files fans held Fox in when they tried to shut down XF fansites. It might not have hurt Fox's profits, but it did lose them some goodwill.

What do you think? Do you think that the corporate Powers that Be will continue to tolerate us, if only to save their products' fanbases?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: A Question.

topazlily
2007-12-26 03:42 pm UTC (link)

Well, firstly, it wouldn't be a case of "saving the fanbase". Trust me, there are a great many people who don't write fan fiction, and yet are fans of something.

And if companies such as publishing houses have to choose between allowing fan fiction and keeping their own rights– what do you think they're going to do? Authors likewise. It would be just too easy for some upstart to cash in on the popularity of an original fiction– without doing the real creative work.

However, I don't think it will come to that.

I also think it would be a good thing if the legal status of fanfiction were settled– I mean if it were ruled that fan writers are immune from prosecution as long as they don't overstep certain limits.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: A Question. dinpik 2007-12-27 02:35 am UTC (link)
	And if companies such as publishing houses have to choose between allowing fan fiction and keeping their own rights– what do you think they're going to do? Authors likewise. Exactly. Mess with people's source of income, and they get nasty. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: A Question. topazlily 2007-12-27 03:29 am UTC (link)
	And before anyone screams about how MEAN and GREEDY they are, I'd just like to point out that most writers are not rich, by any means, and that publishers have to make a profit to be viable. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: A Question.

dinpik
2008-01-02 03:15 am UTC (link)

Rowling and Rice can afford to wield the Lawyers of Doom. Other authors? Not so much... unless they could make a class-action lawsuit out of it. Now there's an idea to make fen whimper.

It's more the studios you'd have to watch out for, though, as the Bottom Line rules all. Case in point: years ago, there was an Invader Zim website that hosted forums, fanfic and fan art. It also sold unauthorized t-shirts, as well as downloads of the episdoes.

Word got back to Viacom, and not all the "I'm just a kid! (even though I'm 18)" kept Viacom from making him take down the t-shirts and the episodes, even though the letter they sent (he put it up on the forums) said they had no problems with fanfic and fan art.

Fans hate it, but it's true: Money talks and bullshit walks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

xtricks
2008-01-01 08:24 pm UTC (link)

I don't believe that OTW (which I have been following closely since its inception, but I am *not* an OTW spokesperson - being male, among other things) is claiming that fanwork is copyrightable in the same sense as original work. What they are claiming is that fanfiction falls into the same 'fair use' clause of copyright that parody (and sporking) fall under. In fact, sporking would be as protected under their concept as any other fan work. In *no* case are they claiming that fanauthors should be allowed to sell their work for profit, if it derives from someone else's work. What they are trying to claim is that fanwork (parody, fics, vids, RPS) all fall under 'fair use.'

I do have problems with the *tenor* of OTW, and the fact they are basically a small, closely knit, contingent of fan producers who are financially well off, well educated and self- satisfied with their opinions. It reminds me, in fact, of the historical problem that American feminism has faced for decades; the difficulty of grappling with the experiences of non-American, non-white, non-white collar, non-Western, non-academic women, non-straight in America and elsewhere while claiming to speak for all women or all women's problems.

The most serious issue to me is that evidently one of their lawywers is a known fan plagarist and not well thought of in fandom as a whole. Plus the (according to the OP) financial requirement to vote.

As to if OTW will cause a backlash from the powers that be? Honestly, I think that the 'confrontation' between fan/hobby producers and TPTB is inevitable and going to happen, regardless of OTW, in the next decade or so. Fanworks are inevitably moving into the minds of the public as a whole.

On the final hand - I'm all for their archive, so long as it's free to use and does not demand certain 'quality' requirements are met.

(Reply to this)

	tacky_tramp 2008-01-01 10:02 pm UTC (link)
	I'm an OTW supporter, and I think these are good questions and valid concerns. Will you consider coming to the next OTW chat and pose them to the Community Relations committee? They post the details on otw_news. (Reply to this)

anthimaeria
2008-01-01 10:47 pm UTC (link)

I don't like the idea of a "predominantly female" community. What if this was called a "predominantly white" community? We need to value the contributions of male fic writers as well.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the meaning of "transformative" or what the point is of this organization, if it has one.

We don't need an organization to advocate for the copyright protection of fan work. If someone copies your work, they've plagiarized. If they quote portions of the same for parody/sporking, that's fair use.

(Reply to this)

briarwood
2008-01-02 10:56 am UTC (link)

Meyshi's claim was basically that she had the right to send a DMCA takedown notice as her story was independently copyrightable.

And she was half correct. Fan fiction is already copyrightable. The actual stories, the specific words we use in fan fiction are copyright to whoever writes them. That they are based on characters/worlds owned by someone else means that our little bit of copyright doesn't mean much, but it still exists. Legally, if you create a derivative work, you own the copyright to your derivations. Just not to the elements that aren't yours in the first place.

Where Meyshi was wrong was in believing that this gave her the right to send a DMCA takedown notice, because what you call sporking and others would call lampooning or satire is specifically covered by fair use provisions in copyright law.

What OTW wants to do, as far as I can tell, is to clearly establish that fan fiction (and other fan works) likewise fall under fair use provisions.

(Reply to this)

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