Not Your Token Brown Friend ([info]fire_fly) wrote in [info]debunkingwhite,
@ 2005-04-30 19:22:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
On "Cultural Imperialism"
A friend of mine asked me this question a while ago, and I only got around to responding today:
How do you feel when you see other people using aspects from your ethnic culture for their own benefit? (For example, feng shui and Native American spirituality etc).
I used to get very upset when I saw things like this.

IMO, culture is an holistic system of values, symbols, stories, narratives, norms, practices, skills, processes, ideas, models, meanings... All of these things are parts of a system. They don't make sense without the other parts of the system. They are integrated at broad, abstract and impersonal levels -- like within religious institutions, rituals and in religious texts -- but they're also integrated at the practical level of people's lives.
Religious and spiritual ideas and symbols are part of entire systems, and they can't be completely understood outside those systems.
It seems like a lot of neo-Pagans and New Age mystics believe otherwise, that they can understand and appropriate anything from outside their own system of understanding, and that it'll fit seamlessly into their own practice. I don't think that can happen without a great deal of "trimming off" of unwanted aspects of something.
For example, Hindu ideals of ascetism only make sense from within a caste system that divides labour in Hindu society according to a rigid hierarchy, but people who practice Yoga and suchlike often don't take into account that only a privileged minority of Hindu society was really enabled to devote themselves whole-heartedly to it. But Yogis would (and, IMO, should) dispute how good a caste system is for organising society.

Culture is also, fundamentally, how people live their lives, and the things they have in common. IMO, you can't really understand a culture unless you're a part of it. Participation is an inherent part of cultural learning. Practices, ideas, values and symbols that are an active part of people's lives can't be abstracted out without losing some of their vital aspects. It comes off as kinda arrogant when people who don't share that assume they can know just as much, or more, about someone's life from outside that life.
I think this applies to the past as well. I don't think there's a universal meaning to something outside its particular situation, and I don't think you can understand that meaning without being a part of that situation. I find it strange how people can go through the motions of acting out aspects of the lives of people who are very distant from them in space and time without any concept of the differences that they're crudely glossing over.

That's why I don't think any amount of research is enough to substitute for actually growing up as a part of a culture.

Something that many people don't understand is how culturally specific knowledge is treated by researchers. There's been a lot of work into the colonialist practices that many academic disciplines is based on (in the field of post-colonial studies). Orientalism, by Edward Said, is a good book to start with for a good account of the politics of inter-cultural knowledge.
The assumption that someone outside a culture can fully understand it has underpinned so many imperialist programs, and it's a heavily politically-charged issue, because it's about how much power a group of people have over their everyday lives.

What people who appropriate things from distant cultures don't realise is that what they're doing is enabled by a very unequal global socio-economic structure that puts them in a privileged position in relation to other people. And that structure exists despite the best intentions of the people doing the appropriating.

But that doesn't mean that people from outside a culture can't take part in it. Cultural meanings come from people. People learn them from other people, as they grow up. It's passed on through intimate personal connections -- usually family, sometimes through teachers or elders. I think it's a big problem to appropriate from a culture without any connection to the people who make it up.

But a lot of cultural appropriation goes on outside such personal connections. Specific, personal things get taken out of their context and put into a system that's alien to them -- either the global market for ideas, or the academic system -- which completely denies the people who inherited them any say in what happens to them.
I read an article about dream-catchers a while ago. The article described how dream-catchers are traditionally made by mothers, for their children. But some Native American people had been making them and selling them for commercial purposes, and this had caused considerable controversy.
It's obvious that the meaning of the dream-catcher had been changed irrevocably by the fact that they'd been made for commercial sale, and not as a personal gift. Even if a woman bought one for her child, that's a very different situation to that of a Native American woman making one for her child. Would someone who bought a dream-catcher really understand the work that went into it, its meaning, the place it occupies in relationships in Native American societies? I doubt it.
And that's what's so objectionable -- the impersonality and disempowerment that so much cultural misappropriation brings about.

A few years ago, on a pagan forum, there was an intense debate about this issue between a group of white North American and European suburbanite pagans and a Maori woman. The Maori woman was on the side of limiting appropriation, but made an argument that I remember very clearly: she said that the boundaries between cultures don't have to be rigid and exclusive, but they also shouldn't be totally open. She talked about how, in Maori culture, the way to integrate outsiders was to get to know them. To form relationships, friendships, families with the Pakeha, and to include them in the culture by preserving the ways that knowledge is passed on, which maintains cultural power.

Some say that trying to limit access to certain knowledge, symbols and practices is based on arbitrary privilege. But that's a denial of the living practices of a culture -- such as the hierarchies that control who gets religious knowledge. There's no society in which all knowledge is freely available, and the politics of knowledge in Western culture are no more rational than they are in any other culture. Expertise is valuable, and rare, and it's not something that everyone has access to in any culture. You can't disparage the practices that allow for privilege in one culture just because they're different to those in another culture.

I think people ought to try to empathise with people rather than study and adopt cultures by remote control. And I think people should have a say in what happens with the materiél of their lives.



(Post a new comment)


[info]oneiota
2005-04-30 10:56 am UTC (link)
Couldn't agree more, thanks for spelling this out so clearly.

I often find myself in stuck the middle of these issues, not quite sure how to react. I'm white (with certain Dutch/Indonesian cultural influences, but essentially white), and my partner is Indian Australian. Having been with him for a long time, lived with his family for a while, gotten to know his relatives, etc, I've been, to a limited extent, "assimilated"* into certain aspects of Indian/Tamilian culture. I'm absolutely not claiming that this diminishes my whiteness (I'm always wary of people who attempt to gain cultural capital through intercultural relationships), but there are many things about "Indian-ness" that make more sense to me than they do to most non-Indians.

There are the superficial things, like the Tamil names for spices and veges, or eating only with your right hand, or not pointing your foot at elders. You need to know them in order to not offend, but you could pick those sorts of things up by reading a book, if you wanted to. And then there are those subtle cultural things which, as you said, you can only learn through long-term connection with people, through messing up and having things explained to you, through an honest, open-hearted commitment to knowing and understanding other human beings. They're often the things that we don't even think of as "cultural" because they just seem like common sense.

When I see white women wearing bhindis, or Ganesha statues in homeware shops, or signs advertising "Bollywood Dancing Classes" in the white, upper-class suburb where I work...I'm just torn. One one hand, I have no cultural authority with which to explain that they're completely missing the point. And that's okay - I am quite aware that I will never be "Indian", and wouldn't purport to speak for those that are. On the other hand, I've been assimilated* enough to find many white people's interactions with Indian culture nonsensical. I'm a little embarrassed that other Indians are quite likely to see me as belonging in exactly the same "dumb-white-moron" category, regardless of how respectful I attempt to be.

You can't win. But you can offer love and respect with all of your heart, and hope.



* I'm aware that given the power dynamic usually associated with 'assimilation', this isn't quite the right to word to use, but it's the best I can come up with tonight. Suggestions welcome.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fire_fly
2005-04-30 12:03 pm UTC (link)
Thanks muchly for your thoughts.

Adding you back, BTW. So glad to meet a fellow Sydney-sider who understands. :-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]littlebutfierce
2005-04-30 02:07 pm UTC (link)
i liked your post a lot... i like also how it answers the charge of "but are you saying that all cultures should just stay in their own little boxes & never change???" & makes room for context--like i generally say, when talking about why kanji tattoos on white people enrage me, that if someone (for example) had a huge & real connection to japan (japanese spouse, or lived there for a few years, or SOMETHING), i could see them getting a kanji tattoo. but not the ppl who just waltz into the tattoo shop & want something spicy & exotic. :P

now here's a question (i had been toying w/the idea of making this a separate post, but i'll just put it here for now)--what is useful to say to people who approach the issue of cultural appropriation w/the "but i'm an ARTIST!" (broad sense of the word--writer, painter, etc.) mentality?

lately i've seen a lot of this on lj... people who say, "but i'm an artist. my cultural heritage is the world!" & "if white people feel they can best express themselves by using such-&-such from another culture, who are we to trample on their artistic expression?"

& i'm having more trouble than usual coming up w/coherent responses to this kind of attitude. because for them, it seem to all boil down to censorship of free expression (& the kind of "political correctness"--eyeroll--that artists should be free of). i don't know why this feels like it needs a different approach than how i usually talk about cultural appropriation, but it's been frustrating me lately. any ideas? maybe i should post this separately after all, meh.

(oh, & since they happen to be writers a lot of the time, they're much more eloquent & thus more difficult for me to debate w/, since i get all fumbly-like)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jet
2005-04-30 04:35 pm UTC (link)
artists have a long history of looking towards the "primitive" for new ways to express themselves.

yes, they should be free to express themselves, but i think their art and their artistic practices need to be carefully examined from a perspective that is more critical of this colonialist mindset. there isn't a great deal of this sort of criticism from art historians/critics, just as there isn't a lot said about gender issues, queer issues, etc. these sorts of scholarship/criticism are ghettoized and dismissed by many.

as a painter, i feel responsible for whatever images i produce. i don't think everyone necessarily does, though. and then there is the underlying issue of how people view themselves in relation to the rest of the world.

getting to your question, i think what is useful is to engage them in a dialogue as to learn why they are painting certain types of imagery. from that point, one could talk about the problems with cultural appropriation, and might point to the well known artists such as paul gauguin who were in search of the "primitive" because they thought "primitive" people were more naive and child-like and therefore more pure. one bit of irony in gauguin's story was that he went to tahiti in search of the "primitive", but then upon arriving, realized it was a little too "primitive" and wanted to help them to be more french (civilized). of course, he had no problem screwing whatever girls/women he felt like. then you realize there is the exploitation of this idea of the "primitive" for sexual purposes. this is still ocurring with white men.

i think the intentions behind what someone is doing are what is important to get at, and through dialogue, we can find out what is going on in their head and we can also potentially influence an artist to be more responsible and thoughtful with what she or he creates.

i study painting and art history, so i may have veered off course with your comment. plase forgive me if that is the case.


(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]littlebutfierce
2005-05-02 12:34 am UTC (link)

i study painting and art history, so i may have veered off course with your comment.


no, not @ all. i appreciate your thoughtful response. thank you!

i agree that artists (not just painters, but of all types) often feel this attraction to the "primitive."

& yeah... dialogue. always helpful. but sometimes i get so tired of having to initiate all the time, augh!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fire_fly
2005-04-30 11:04 pm UTC (link)
You can't express something you don't understand, and don't share in. That's what I'd say to artists.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]littlebutfierce
2005-05-02 12:36 am UTC (link)
but then i feel like we're edging close to the "are you saying i can't ever write/draw/etc. a non-white non-male non-straight character, because i'm not one?" which i think is tricky in itself... i think it's silly to assume that no one can write a character outside of zir experience, but on the other hand, how do you draw the line? i also hate how people pull out the "i'm not just going to draw white men!" thing whenever their cultural practices are questioned.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]fire_fly
2005-05-02 06:20 am UTC (link)
Who said people should stop trying to understand differences? The thing is, there are ways to epxress the limits. The feminist concept of 'situated subjectivity' comes to play here -- being reflexive in recognising the cultural baggage (especially imperialist cultural baggage) that comes with being from a particular place, time, and socio-economic position. You have to understand your limits before you can move beyond them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]demondoll2001
2005-04-30 06:38 pm UTC (link)
I agree. You've stated my thoughts and ideas on the topic perfectly!

(Reply to this)


[info]quiche86
2005-04-30 07:26 pm UTC (link)
please lj-cut

(Reply to this)


[info]angelo7
2005-04-30 08:38 pm UTC (link)
Liked the post. But about the dream catcher. When I was in fifth grade these Native American women came to our school and showed us how to make dream catchers. They had sinewen(sp?) that's made out of guts and even real vines to bend into a circle and make it round. The only thing that was't real were the feathers--which we kids righted by running around the playground in search of stray ones.

So we made dream catchers and I thought it was a beautiful idea when they told us the story behind it and what it means. But I really treasure my dreamcatcher, and now I'm in college and it still hangs, lopsided and wilted, over my bed. I don't pretend to understand the culture of Native Americans, but that part I really do think is beautiful. I would be dissappointed if someone came in my room and told me my dreamcatcher was the result of me trying to be a poser or didn't really mean anything because my mom didn't make it, or what have you...

So I mean I can see how people can identify with parts of a culture but not fully understand the whole thing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fire_fly
2005-04-30 11:42 pm UTC (link)
Well, what's the story of your dream-catcher? It's a product of your personal experience with some people, and carries that meaning with it. It doesn't have to adhere to the letter of tradition to be meaningful, but I think there should be a meaningful transformation of tradition, by people, according to their personal desires and needs, with as much interpersonal contact as possible.

I don't think you're a poser.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bike4fish
2005-05-01 04:01 am UTC (link)
I agree with what you are saying, and would like your opinion on a couple of phenomena.

What do you think of members of a culture specifically writing about aspects of that culture specifically for people who are not members of that culture? In the context of the discussion, the Dalai Lama, Chögyam Trungpa, and Paramahansa Yogananda come to mind.

There are more thoughts on this here.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fire_fly
2005-05-01 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Well, are they conscious of how it'll affect their culture? Will they lose out by it? Will they retain a measure of power over whatever they're sharing? Do they feel coerced into it because of oppressive socio-economic circumstances (known to happen with some indigenous arts and crafts)? Can they convey what they want to convey using another language?

The answers to those questions is never "yes" or "no", it's much more complicated.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

In general, my views...
[info]ex_kali_shey961
2005-05-02 10:21 pm UTC (link)
I've just joined...

I'm Romani, or ethnic 'Gypsy' of the Sinti nation. We--Gypsies--have a HUGE problem with this sort of thing.

Let me just say straight off, however, that I have no problem whatsoever with people who are genuinely interested and ask respectful questions WITHOUT LOSING SIGHT OF WHAT THEIR OWN HERITAGE IS. Unfortunately I don't come across many people like that, which is a shame.

Instead, I spend much of my time arguing with people (largely new-age, pagan types) who refuse to see that we're a race/ethnic group and not a lifestyle. What really gets me is that they're drawn to this pseudo-'spirituality' and the very worst stereotypes about my people. The very same stereotypes, might I add, that caused our ancestors to be beaten and hanged and raped and gassed and that weren't even true in the first place. These new age wannabe Gypsies have no right to mess around with these things in the first place, in my opinion, and then they go about in costumes which are similar to what our ancestors wore circa 1589 and they tell anybody who will listen that they're 'Gypsy' and, in a nutshell, misrepresent my people to a society that has no frame of reference for us to begin with.

We're ordinary people who live in the modern day and drive cars and go to college and get married and divorced at a comparable rate with the rest of society. Yes, some groups are more traditional than others in the sense that they keep themselves to themselves and have a healthy mistrust of many of the things that go on in the world but the bottom line is that we're as diverse a group as any other and, if we couldn't survive in the modern world and were, instead, the kind of living history exhibit these people take us to be, we'd have all died out long ago.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Continued...
[info]ex_kali_shey961
2005-05-02 10:21 pm UTC (link)

Trying to be kind and reasonable and explain things to these new-agers is like talking to a wall ... I'm genuinely astounded by the number of times people have gone really irate with me and my friends because we don't fit into their skewed and twisted idea of what we 'should be'. I'm equally astonished by the fact a lot of these people (pagans, SCA 'Gypsies', Ren Faire 'Gypsies' and similar) come across literature regarding the Romani and the Holocaust and the European Gypsy Hunts and slavery and persecution and it makes no impression on them whatsoever...? I cannot, for the life of me, begin to imagine how these people are able to justify the things that they do to themselves. I can only figure that somebody who is so shallow and sad that they have to try to appropriate somebody else's heritage because their own isn't 'exotic' enough has serious problems.

By the way, I'm only speaking for my people, the Romani. Not the Irish Travellers or the Dutch barge people or the New Age Travellers or the Jenische or any sub-culture of that nature. They're an entirely different animal and are nothing to do with us. I don't know what they do or why they do it. I know some of them - I know they're nice people who have their own problems but here I'm talking purely about race, not lifestyle.

For me, it can all be summed up quite easily - these people didn’t want to be ‘like us’ when they were rounding people up for transport to Auschwitz; why do they want to be like us now?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Continued...
[info]demondoll2001
2005-05-04 02:57 am UTC (link)
these people didn’t want to be ‘like us’ when they were rounding people up for transport to Auschwitz; why do they want to be like us now?

The SCA/Neo-pagans, etc, all get on my nerves for the same reason! And yes, exactly! THey love to steal our "ethnic heritage" , but don't want to deal with the racism and discrimination we have to deal with.

I've known New-agers who will gladly "appropriate" Hindu gods and clothing when it suits them.....but conveniently enough, they never have to face any penalty for being different.

Welcome to the community, by the way!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Continued...
[info]ex_kali_shey961
2005-05-04 04:04 am UTC (link)
Ta muchly! :))

The SCA and the Ren Faire people I have a big problem with. I'm anti-racist, of course, and consequently I'm also against making broad, sweeping generalisations against any group - ethnic, religious, political etc. but, by and large, the SCA drives me batty. I've spent a lot of time talking and/or arguing with SCA 'Gypsies' and I do have to say that I've spoken to a couple of people who were decent and asked intelligent questions and tried to compromise and were very reasonable ... but by and large that isn't the case, unfortunately. Ditto the New Agers. I spend a lot of time resisting the urge to go outside and bang my head against a tree.

And, yeah, that's exactly it ... no penalties for being different and, if things get ugly (and, let's face it, things periodically do) nobody's going to pay them the slightest bit of attention while the rest of us are stuck because we can't change our origins (AND I'll be you that, when it comes down to it, we're held responsible for *their* behavior as well!!). I can't believe these people can't take a bit of responsibility and that they can't think logically about this stuff and consider the damage they might be doing.... It really makes me despair.

Erm...you might have noticed all my posts and comments run along the same lines! lol! I'm vastly relieved and enormously grateful that I'm meeting people who understand and have had similar experiences .. it's good on a number of different levels and I'm hoping to talk more and that we can all work together on these things in the future; I've had the great fortune of running into like-minded people in these groups and, as much as I despair over some of the idiots, I'm equally hopeful now that I know there are more of us! :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…