debate: I'm A Dragon!

Kettetastic (

yakkette) wrote in

debate,
@ 2003-05-31 15:27:00

Current mood:

amused

I'm A Dragon!
I recently came upon an internet sub-culture I'd previously been unaware of.

"Otherkin" are a group of people who SERIOUSLY believe themselves to not be fully human, or even human at all. Either through reincarnation or some other mystical explanation, otherkin believe that their soul or their spirit- or even their physical form is that of either a mythical creature, such as a unicorn, fairy, mermaid, elf, dragon, griffin, vampire, or angel, or a real animal, such as a fox, a lion, a wolf, or a dolphin. There are even some who believe that they are aliens. Those that believe they are physically not human explain their human appearance by some sort of "glamour" or shapeshifting ability.

Many Otherkin feel that they are much older than their human years, and often believe they have special powers such as psychic ability, healing ability, empathic ability, and whatnot. Some feel they are "superior" to humans and complain about humans a lot. They refer to the process of realizing that they are not human as "Awakening" and many believe that they are more than ONE mystical creature, such as dragon/cat hybrids and whatnot. Many get very offended if their beliefs/abilities are questioned, and there's often a lot of dissent within the community, like when a fox otherkin might claim that the angel otherkin are full of shit, because they don't actually serve God or something.

Here's a few links that describe this phenomenon better:
Otherkin Abilities
Otherkin.net
You Might Be Otherkin If...
otherkin

For debate: Although I do try to respect people's spiritual and religious beliefs, to put it bluntly, I think anyone who believes themselves to physically be a fairy/wolf hybrid is either self-delusional or quite possibly psychotic. Most of these people tend to share some traits- social ineptness, serious depression or other psychological problems, a love of fantasy/sci-fi novels and RPGs, and not feeling like they "fit in" in society. It's understandable that an overweight, pimply, 16 year-old nerd would want to escape into fantasy by daydreaming about life as a majestic winged dragon, but I think it negatively affects the person's life when they take the fantasy and act as if it's reality. It gives them an excuse to continue in their anti-social ways because now they feel they're "better" than the mean humans who teased them in high school. Instead of growing up and facing reality, they find online communities that become their only link to other people, and they all reinforce each other's delusions.

But does this vary from typical religious beliefs? Is considering yourself "otherkin" any less delusional than being a Wiccan? A Christian?

Side debate: Is it cruel and intolerant to mock these people, or is it good, clean, fun?

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yakkette
2003-05-31 03:59 pm UTC (link)

For the record, if otherkin angels can claim to be the Metatron, this should mean that I can claim to be Trinity from The Matrix. Don't you know that the directors just stole their idea from my past life as a kick-ass, leather-clad babe? They tapped into my psychic subconcious and made it into a movie- they owe me royalties!

If you don't address me as Trinity from now on, I will accuse you of being intolerant towards my belief system.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

luwana
2003-06-01 05:00 am UTC (link)

not true. it's a bit likeme claiming to be, say, una, or illucian. i'm notthem, they are their own people. i could however claim to be a hippocampus, or a ludrakoni. you could not claim to be trinity, trinity is an individual, however you could claim to be a pvc clad, sunglass wearing, gun wielding babe who lived in a world where there really was a matrix and a zion etc.

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yakkette, 2003-06-01 11:52 pm UTC

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luwana, 2003-06-02 03:36 am UTC

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yakkette, 2003-06-02 02:05 pm UTC

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luwana, 2003-06-02 02:22 pm UTC

Therein lies the problem -

anonymous_army, 2003-06-03 07:12 pm UTC

Re: Therein lies the problem -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 01:56 am UTC

Re: Therein lies the problem -

anonymous_army, 2003-06-04 06:20 am UTC

	wik 2003-05-31 04:07 pm UTC (link)
	They're delusional and creepy in the same way this guy is. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	yakkette 2003-05-31 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	I disagree. I don't know of any otherkin who actually advocate having sex with animals. The dolphinsex guy is way creepier. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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wik, 2003-05-31 04:18 pm UTC

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eyesxonxyou, 2003-06-01 06:40 am UTC

xaoswolf
2003-05-31 04:22 pm UTC (link)

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!

Oh man...

Give me a minute...

OK, *snicker* I'm sure that these "people", hee hee, are practicing a religion that is just as valid as *giggle* Wicca...

Now, whether or not Wicca is delusional...

That's a whole nother story.

You find it frustrating you can't turn into wind, and end up running into doors as a result.

Oh shit...

LOLZATHONTERYAKI!!1!1!111!!!1

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	yakkette 2003-05-31 04:24 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe I'll post a Wicca debate later, since I've got mixed feelings on that one. But I take it you don't find it cruel or intolerant to mock them. I've been entertaining myself with this otherkin stuff for a week, now. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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i_am_a_troll, 2003-05-31 04:39 pm UTC

I'm going to go stir my caldron until all contents are boiling -

tydestra, 2003-05-31 04:51 pm UTC

Re: I'm going to go stir my caldron until all contents are boiling -

i_am_a_troll, 2003-05-31 04:54 pm UTC

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yakkette, 2003-05-31 05:03 pm UTC

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luwana, 2003-06-01 05:04 am UTC

	artisdead 2003-05-31 04:23 pm UTC (link)
	As a Christian I, unlike Wiccans and otherkin, do not believe anything which is observably false. And since we aren't allowed to burn them I think the fires of mockery will have to do for Wiccans and otherkin. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	wik 2003-05-31 04:27 pm UTC (link)
	Rising from the dead...I bet that's another power some Otherkin have... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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niekhilet, 2003-06-01 11:28 am UTC

I am an Otherkin -

flotsam_sl, 2004-08-12 04:17 am UTC

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thrashercub, 2004-09-21 11:36 am UTC

skaloop
2003-05-31 04:25 pm UTC (link)

Weird. My favourites are the girl who thinks she's a hippocampus (?!?!?!) and the other one who thinks he's electricity. His explanation (he likes thunderstorms, and get sleepy during power outages) are nice, but I betcha most people get tired during power outages, because it gets DARK!

To me, it is just as delusional as any other spiritual belief.

As for the side debate, mocking them is cruel and intolerant fun. The best of both worlds!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

yakkette
2003-05-31 04:27 pm UTC (link)

That's part of what I find amusing- a lot of the "proof" for "otherkinness" is based on very common things, such as being drawn to nature (most people are drawn to nature. It's pretty and nice) or having strangely colored eyes (mine do appear to "change color" but I attribute that to different lighting conditions, not being an elf) or having vivid dreams (nicotene patches will give you some fucked-up, seriously vivid dreams!)

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stipe, 2003-05-31 07:09 pm UTC

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xaoswolf, 2003-05-31 08:33 pm UTC

mugrug
2003-05-31 04:33 pm UTC (link)

One of my friends is involved in this sort of thing. Though he just likes to create ater-egos and doesn't actually believe himself to be a dragon. It's much the same as any other roleplay.
That said there are others on groups such as #alfandria (IRC) who believe it to be true. I say they're crackpots, but friendly crackpots.

With my friend it seems to be more of a "scaley" obsession than anything else. This is like "furry fetishes." Or becoming aroused by amphropomorphic creatures/people in suits... or even plush toys. There's a lot of stuff on the net, if you care to look. It's... interesting. To say the least.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

wik
2003-05-31 04:37 pm UTC (link)

No, the furry people still are putting on suits. They like furry or scaly things, and pretend to be them, and draw really scary pictures of them having sex. None (that I've met) have the actual level of belief that they *are* their characters. Old Celtic stuff (like the Otherkin people seem to go for) seems to be a better basis for believing that you actually are something else, and don't just like to pretend you are.

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yakkette, 2003-05-31 04:39 pm UTC

Re: -

mugrug, 2003-05-31 05:03 pm UTC

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youngvanwinkle, 2003-06-01 04:53 pm UTC

mlfoley
2003-05-31 05:29 pm UTC (link)

Wow, you just discovered the otherkin? Where have you been? ;)

Otherkin sites tend to pop up fairly reguarly on the Portal of Evil, I site I check damn near daily. I think people who are otherkin are kind of deluded, but I fail to see how it is necessarily psychotic, let alone comparable to Christianity or Wicca (since, to disprove those, you'd have to disprove the existance of God, Goddess, Christ, etc..., spirituality, etc, etc... which is pretty impossible).

Disproving "otherkin" is pretty easy. Since someone does not physically look like a dragon (which they are suggesting they are) they can't be otherkin. It's sad, and deluded and pathetic, sure. But harmful? Only to the believer, I'd say, and if it gives him/her meaning, then by all means, go for it. Who am I to deprive someone of something that gives their lives meaning?

As far as making fun of it... I don't do it to their faces, but Portal of Evil is pretty much dedicated to making fun of people (furries, ICP fans, otherkin, people with bizzare fetishes, etc).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

yakkette
2003-05-31 06:05 pm UTC (link)

I've always known that some furries consider themselves to have the soul of whatever animal they like to roleplay, but I had no idea how popular and widespread this belief is.

I actually did some research on this on portal of evil. The most amusing thing about otherkin is the threats they make when offended- like griffins who threatened to claw at the POE forum peeps with their razor-sharp talons. Ooooh.

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yakkette, 2003-06-01 11:19 pm UTC

It lodges it's boot firmly in it's trap.. -

anatexis, 2003-06-01 04:11 pm UTC

	maybesomeone 2003-05-31 05:52 pm UTC (link)
	As long as they are not hurting or bothering themselves or someone else, let them do whatever it is that they want to do... Sometimes the most delusional people are the happiest! (Reply to this) (Thread)

yakkette
2003-05-31 06:02 pm UTC (link)

Most otherkin seem depressed. Read their journals. I don't see a lot of evidence of "happiness".

And the argument isn't about trying to prevent them from doing what they want. They can be just as delusional as they want and I can't stop that, nor can I stop a coyote otherkin from howling or or growling or whatnot. What I can do is make an assessment of their belief system, which is what I am attempting to do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	artisdead 2003-05-31 06:51 pm UTC (link)
	And if my remarks did not make it clear, I have exactly zero patience with belief systems I find stupid and dangerous. So mocking the otherkin is not only good clean fun, but it is our duty. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	tydestra 2003-05-31 07:12 pm UTC (link)
	I have exactly zero patience with belief systems I find stupid and dangerous. Spoken like a true Christian. Which makes you not only an idiot, but a jackass too. Cause not only is Christian a belief which is stupid; its also dangerous too. Spanish Inquistion The Crusade (All 3 of them, one being the children's crusade) Salem Witch trails (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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xaoswolf, 2003-05-31 08:36 pm UTC

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catwoman980, 2003-05-31 09:06 pm UTC

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artisdead, 2003-06-01 03:23 am UTC

Lurking: good and good for you... -

mister_pixley, 2003-06-05 06:10 pm UTC

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janusdoa, 2003-06-01 12:07 am UTC

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fangtsu, 2003-06-03 05:34 pm UTC

	hollowman 2003-05-31 07:20 pm UTC (link)
	It's stupid. There was a great MP3 rant going around awhile back about some guy who thought he was a dragon. Wicca isn't so much a delusion as a good laugh. Christianity is far more serious, and thus more dangerous. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	anatexis 2003-06-01 05:46 pm UTC (link)
	Therefore the degree to which christianity is dangerous or isn't is dependent entirely on personal experience and consequent opinion! Put a fucking shirt on. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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hollowman, 2003-06-01 06:01 pm UTC

Class wasn't my forte.. -

anatexis, 2003-06-01 07:49 pm UTC

Re: Class wasn't my forte.. -

hollowman, 2003-06-02 11:30 am UTC

	christiana 2003-05-31 10:14 pm UTC (link)
	What a sexy user icon. snickers (Reply to this) (Thread)

	yakkette 2003-06-01 11:21 pm UTC (link)
	From someone who uses a pinup as an icon because they're afraid to show their face- or when they do show their face in an icon, it's only HALF- I'll take that as a compliment. Oh yeah, and grow the fuck up, you goddamned cow. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	tyler1968 2003-05-31 11:54 pm UTC (link)
	All religion is superstitious nonsense, so all religions are ripe for mockery. Especially Catholicism. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	anatexis 2003-06-01 05:47 pm UTC (link)
	I know that all religion is superstitious nonsense. To know this I must have seen every religion in every possible way and at every point in time. Therefore, I am god. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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tyler1968, 2003-06-01 11:01 pm UTC

	janusdoa 2003-06-01 12:03 am UTC (link)
	Oh yeah. Like Furries, except more dangerously psychotic. People like that should be, therefore, treated as non-human and exterminated like the abominations they believe themselves to be. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	I hope you're just kidding kinkyturtle 2003-06-03 12:09 am UTC (link)
	Because if not, you creep me out a lot more than any Otherkin. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

yakkette, 2003-06-03 03:39 am UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

kinkyturtle, 2003-06-03 03:39 pm UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 02:02 am UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

kinkyturtle, 2003-06-04 02:33 am UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 01:50 pm UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

janusdoa, 2003-06-03 06:31 pm UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

kinkyturtle, 2003-06-03 06:45 pm UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 02:02 am UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

kinkyturtle, 2003-06-04 02:33 am UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 01:50 pm UTC

Re: I hope you're just kidding -

mister_pixley, 2003-06-05 06:19 pm UTC

foobiwan
2003-06-01 03:13 am UTC (link)

For starters, I think that anyone who bases their life upon things that are empirically false or strongly empirically unlikely are a bit off.

Anyone who talks to their imaginary friend in order to change the world has probably been missing a few neurons. That being said, anyone who actually thinks, not pretends, but full on thinks, they are something that they are empirically provably not (they think they're a fish? Go drown, dumbass!) is even further gone.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

mister_pixley
2003-06-05 06:38 pm UTC (link)

You make a good point- something I personally agree with. Blind faith, impossible egocentricity and escapism are all potentially dangerous chemicals - definitely not something one would want to OD on.

But I think they can have their purpose.

There's a lot of holes in empirical knowledge that would be better off filled with hypotheses than left open. That's where blind (if not educated) faith comes in handy.
As for egoism- a little self-indulgence now and then is good for the esteem. It's nothing to make a lifestyle out of, and ego-inflation can be downright counterproductive; but there's nothing wrong with holding oneself in high regards, so long as it doesn't reach the point of looking down on other people.
And escapism... can be nice. As was said previously, we all daydream, and we all need an occasional break from the generic cloud of normalcy our lives have taken up residency in.

That said, I don't think Therianthropy can necessarily be pidgeonholed as an indulgence in any of the afore-mentioned three. True, a lot of people adopt the philosophy for such reasons, but there's too wide a spectrum of Otherkin out there to say, for sure, that it's used as a fantasy, or as an "example" of one's alleged superiority, or what have you. To paraphrase Ghandi, 1000 people can mean 1000 different things, even when they seem to be saying the same thing.

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foobiwan, 2003-06-05 08:44 pm UTC

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mister_pixley, 2003-06-06 12:27 pm UTC

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foobiwan, 2003-06-06 09:38 pm UTC

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mister_pixley, 2003-06-08 05:00 pm UTC

luwana
2003-06-01 05:25 am UTC (link)

wow *gets over the fact that she is the only 'kin/were/whatever posting*

basically, i actually agree with you on some things :p people who say they're otherkin because they love nature or have funny coloured eyes need a thwacking over the head with a very large stick. people who reckon they're little faeries n shit make me doubtful to say the least.

yeah, i'm crazy too, i think i'm a dragon. but i'm not that bad. as a dragon, i know damn fine that i shat, drooled in my sleep, made inane comments, and generally was an ass at times. i wasnt some 'all wonderfull heavenly being'.

yeah, i sometimes wonder if i'm just crazy. i know there's every chance that i am not 'kin, that i am infact just schizophrenic. it's a worry that haunts a lot of real 'kin and weres. (the truly delusional ones tend not to even consider that they're crazy) so yeah, maybe i am mad. but since i consider it sick to make fun of some one who's crazy, i suppose i consider it sick to make fun of otherkin who are crazy. and christians who are crazy, and anyone like that.

though i have to admit, fluff bunny wiccans get up my ass so much i reckon they're fair game :D

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	jonfmorse 2003-06-01 04:36 pm UTC (link)
	i know there's every chance that i am not 'kin, that i am infact just schizophrenic. Sure, where "every" = "a 100 percent." (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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luwana, 2003-06-04 10:00 am UTC

	rainoftruth 2003-06-01 06:17 am UTC (link)
	I think it's more delusional than being Wiccan or Christian, but I think all these positions require a stretch of the imagination and a little less common sense than people ought to be equipped with. Otherkin are funnier than Christians or Wiccans, but it takes the fun out of mocking them when it's just so easy. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	yakkette 2003-06-01 11:50 pm UTC (link)
	Easy targets, yes. Still funny, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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rainoftruth, 2003-06-02 12:10 am UTC

	jonfmorse 2003-06-01 09:30 am UTC (link)
	Side debate: Is it cruel and intolerant to mock these people, or is it good, clean, fun? It's neither, darlin'. It's a fucking moral imperative. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	cosmogonic 2003-06-01 04:31 pm UTC (link)
	Jon, Jon! waves arms Right above your comment by like three, there's ONE OF THEM. I don't know what to do with her. You do something. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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yakkette, 2003-06-02 12:07 am UTC

Welp...

thyamath
2003-06-01 12:21 pm UTC (link)

I think anyone who believes themselves to physically be a fairy/wolf hybrid is either self-delusional or quite possibly psychotic.
Hmm, you didnt understand it right, nobody claims to be physically a dragon or whatnot, its all psychical.

Human-Bashers are also a well-known in the Otherkin communities and are they way you think most Otherkins are: whimps, who just claim to be something to feel superior to... well, almost anyone! But thats a problem in every community, may it be Christians, Buddhists, etc.

And its not a religious belief, its just a belief. Sure, it could be were a bunch of nutters... true. But hey, tell a Christian he/she should give a proof for God, or ask a Buddhist he/she should give a proof for reincarnation... And you cant tell them otherwise on the other hand, you just can say "I dont believe it!". There is no proof for nothing, unless you believe in it. Thats the point! Thats why any arguing is useless....

Side debate: Is it cruel and intolerant to mock these people, or is it good, clean, fun?
Its neither. You highly doubt it, I dont... If I would make fun of everyone who isnt the same opinion like me... well, I think you know what I mean, right?

And I would like to add here: Do you really think -like in my case- being a dragon would make life easier? I bet no one would feel superior, if almost everybody makes fun of him/her...
It just makes life more complicated, but it is what we believe in... as simple as that.

And since most of us dont harrass anyone, whats the deal? ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Welp... jonfmorse 2003-06-01 04:39 pm UTC (link)
	Sure, it could be were a bunch of nutters... true. But hey, tell a Christian he/she should give a proof for God, or ask a Buddhist he/she should give a proof for reincarnation Little help here: just because they're fucking nuts doesn't mean you're not. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Welp... -

thyamath, 2003-06-02 12:27 am UTC

(no subject) -

pervypervington, 2003-06-02 04:04 am UTC

(no subject) -

thyamath, 2003-06-02 04:41 am UTC

(no subject) -

pervypervington, 2003-06-02 05:21 am UTC

(no subject) -

thyamath, 2003-06-02 05:52 am UTC

Re: Welp... -

yakkette, 2003-06-01 11:50 pm UTC

Re: Welp... -

thyamath, 2003-06-02 12:20 am UTC

Re: Welp... -

yakkette, 2003-06-02 04:32 pm UTC

Re: Welp... -

thyamath, 2003-06-02 10:05 pm UTC

(no subject) -

angelwind, 2003-06-02 10:47 pm UTC

(no subject) -

yakkette, 2003-06-03 12:12 am UTC

(no subject) -

kinkyturtle, 2003-06-03 12:26 am UTC

(no subject) -

yakkette, 2003-06-03 03:37 am UTC

Oddness -

anonymous_army, 2003-06-03 07:38 pm UTC

Re: Oddness -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 02:04 am UTC

Cruelty, Intolerance, and the establishment of Delusion...

lordandrei
2003-06-01 01:08 pm UTC (link)

I began typing my response. Sadly, due to the limitations of Live Journal's commenting system, I was greeted with the ever annoying: Sorry, but your comment of 8263 characters exceeds the maximum character length of 4300. Please go back, shorten it, and try posting it again.(Since then, through refinement and editing I have added some 400 characters and 80 words. Thank you to my S.O. for the proofread!)

So, I will leave you to read the debate entry that was made in my journal.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	tydestra 2003-06-01 06:42 pm UTC (link)
	Amusing little thing that no one has bothered reading it. I did and bravo...simply bravo. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Cruelty, Intolerance, and the establishment of Delusion... -

yakkette, 2003-06-01 11:46 pm UTC

	pervypervington 2003-06-01 04:39 pm UTC (link)
	What I want to know is why no one has replied to the two people who actually think they are dragons or whatever. Are we scared of them? I know I am. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	cosmogonic 2003-06-01 04:47 pm UTC (link)
	Never mind, Jon's on the attack. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

pervypervington, 2003-06-01 05:02 pm UTC

(no subject) -

cosmogonic, 2003-06-01 05:04 pm UTC

(no subject) -

kinkyturtle, 2003-06-03 12:31 am UTC

(no subject) -

yakkette, 2003-06-03 03:37 am UTC

(no subject) -

xriss, 2003-06-03 02:37 pm UTC

(no subject) -

tobeskye, 2003-06-03 03:49 pm UTC

shameless nit-picking -

anonymous_army, 2003-06-03 08:07 pm UTC

(no subject) -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 02:05 am UTC

paradoxicalchez
2003-06-03 04:16 pm UTC (link)

Although I do try to respect people's spiritual and religious beliefs, to put it bluntly, I think anyone who believes themselves to physically be a fairy/wolf hybrid is either self-delusional or quite possibly psychotic.
Nothing mentioned about mentally or spiritually...

Most of these people tend to share some traits- social ineptness, serious depression or other psychological problems, a love of fantasy/sci-fi novels and RPGs, and not feeling like they "fit in" in society.
I suppose so--don't know all 'kin, so who am I to say? Also, do the traits cause the feeling of being 'kin, or vice versa?

...but I think it negatively affects the person's life when they take the fantasy and act as if it's reality.
Is it really negative if it does not interfere with their everday life?

It gives them an excuse to continue in their anti-social ways because now they feel they're "better" than the mean humans who teased them in high school.
Yes, there are some 'kin who claim to be above humans. But not all 'kin are like that.

Instead of growing up and facing reality, they find online communities that become their only link to other people, and they all reinforce each other's delusions.
Generalization... Also, what if being 'kin is their reality? What if it is a way to cope for that person?

And, yes, I believe myself to be 'kin. Or believe as much as I believe in anything... **shrugs**

And, to be clear, I'm not trying to be whiny or anything... Am just rather curious and interested in how you feel. You're not being rather horrid about the whole issue, and that's pretty nice.. and for your question...

I think of believing oneself to be kin as a belief system, yeah. Different from religion, I think, as there's no worship, but it's belief and, I would suppose, faith in something. Believing in something that maybe you can't prove, but you believe it.

Can't really say much else--not a big believer in anything, and gods know I'll mock what I don't like as much as the next person.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

"Better" than the mean humans who teased them . . .

bookwyrm_com
2003-06-03 07:52 pm UTC (link)

It gives them an excuse to continue in their anti-social ways because now they feel they're "better" than the mean humans who teased them in high school.

Yes, there are some 'kin who claim to be above humans. But not all 'kin are like that.

Certainly, not all otherkin claim to be better than humans in general . . . out of that, most dragons I know have grown relatively quickly. As a matter of policy, acting aggressively anti-human is disallowed in the community I frequent.

The relatively immature otherkin who speak vituperatively of humans are arguably only equal to the "mean humans" who tease them. I would argue, however, that being worse than "mean humans who tease" is rather hard to do without stooping to physical harm. (It might be worth noting that many students, otherkin or not, do have to deal with physical assault and damage to property from their 'peer group' to which they 'need to learn to relate'.

Otherkin are different. Whether this is a product or cause of their perception of themselves as otherkin, they are different from other people their age. Intelligence may do the same thing; I suspect it's a contributing factor for many otherkin. Paul Graham wrote of the secondary school student experience, "Kids are sent off to spend six years memorizing meaningless facts in a world ruled by a caste of giants who run after an oblong brown ball, as if this were the most natural thing in the world. And if they balk at this surreal cocktail, they're called misfits."

There is also the issue of what, exactly, anti-social means. Certainly being "averse to the society of others" is no crime worthy of persecution; "hostile or harmful to organized society," however, seems to apply more fittingly to those who torment others than to those who are the target of such abuse, even if a warped forum has made abusiveness a social norm.

Putting others down in order to make oneself feel better is a bad habit. Ridiculing others publicly in order to make oneself feel better is a worse habit. Physical assault and property damage are inexcusable. Given this progression, I would suggest that even a dandelion or an aphid had right to feel superior to "mean humans who tease [others] in high school;" for otherkin or other humans to privately consider themselves better than that sort is something in accordance with which I fervently hope they will behave.

Being "too good" to behave abusively is, after all, a virtue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: "Better" than the mean humans who teased them . . . -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 02:08 am UTC

Re: "Persecution" -

bookwyrm_com, 2003-06-04 08:47 am UTC

(no subject) -

yakkette, 2003-06-04 02:20 am UTC

~$.019 (+/- .001)

theogrin
2003-06-07 01:32 pm UTC (link)

Found this post through a rather odd set of cross-referencing, so I can't resist contributing my own little bit.

I'll state this: I'm hardly the most 'normal' individual. Although I, myself, am not 'truly' anthromorphic or lycanthropic, so to speak, I do identify somewhat with those groups, especially considering certain shared beliefs (wiccanism or paganism appears a common theme). In essence, I believe in psionicism and the gestalt principle, but that's not entirely important.

What I feel is important is the necessity to cease the mockery, hatred, and irrational impulses of behaviour, 'natural' to everyone, on both ends. The problem with this is that it's a vicious cycle: one spark sets off a bonfire which sets off an inferno. Take a look at some of the rants above, after all.

"It's right to make fun of them because they're different." "It's right to exterminate them because of what they believe." "It's a moral imperative." Much as I dislike invoking Godwin's law, what all of these say is that the other side is automatically wrong because they're in the minority. Spirituality, in particular, is nearly impossible to disprove -- whether a person's spirit is, indeed, anthromorphic or even bestial is an entirely difficult thing to discern (let alone over electronic channels). And if you try and discriminate against others based on what their beliefs are, you find yourself in the position of a tyrant.

It's also pointless to consider oneself superior because one didn't start any fights. It takes two to begin one -- if one side believes that they have a 'moral imperative' to attack the other based on belief, then so long as it's not a physical attack it can be absolutely ignored. (It's the bonus of electronic communications; you can always turn away.) If it's the case in real life...well, by all means, strike them back...not with their own weapons, but with logic.

Both sides should know better than to fight. It only ends in trouble.

(Reply to this)

Ponderings and points of view

spiritrunner
2003-06-19 11:38 pm UTC (link)

hmm... Interesting conversation indeed. And one I can't resist. ^_^

First off, a little about myself so there is a proper frame of reference.(boring stuff I assure you LOL) I'm your basic, 23 year old schlubbing his way through life, living in Canada, working and writing... or trying to anyways. I have no history of mental illness or dysfunction, and neither is there any record of such in my immediate family history on either side. That said, I do consider myself a part of the Otherkin community, namely as a Dragonkin.

It is true, there are a lot of people in these communities that put out a bad face... from the ever so common 'holier than thou' syndrome (of which even -normal- people suffer as well), to misguided people trying to make themselves believe they are something much greater than they actually are, and to bring as many people along for the ride as they can. IE 'I am Lord Vasoloth of the fifteenth star command from planet hoch-fuu!!' And, unfortunately, these are the sort of people that stand out the most because of their 'loud' nature and conscious or unconscious need to be heard.

Because of this, the entire group is given the same stigmas as the loudest portion. It's a natural process, but one that makes it difficult to explain yourself when you are already surrounded in Biases. Also there is the added confounder that every individual you talk to has a different view on what it is to be otherkin. It is a spiritual path and belief system, yes; but it is also mainly un-structured and informal, based on Symbolism and personal interpretations of said symbols.

That said, I believe myself to be Draconic in nature. That doesn't mean that I physically have a tail/wings etc. Nor does it make me a cr 2+ creature with scales and so-many hit die that can let loose a breath weapon every so often (for you RP fans out there). What it means is that on a spiritual/Soul level I have chosen a symbol (unconsciously, consciously, or more likely through a combination of the two) that somehow reflects Me. A compilation of my beliefs, knowledge, what little wisdom I have, what I believe of myself, where I am spiritually and mentally, basically everything that surrounds me and makes me who I am translated into a single image. When I Awakened it didn't change me, because it was only finally recognizing how I already was. Naturally I've grown and changed some since then... who doesn't... but I seriously doubt that makes me crazy ^_^.

I guess the point of all that rambling is that it's usually a good idea to read between the lines in everything... Sometimes what is said, and what is heard, are two very different things. For example the mistake/assumption that this sort of belief is based physically. Or that all otherkin originally suffer from some sort of mental illness (it's common, yes. But it's just as common in normal society).

My name is T'Kaill... and these... are my two cents.
----------------------
"Wisdom is the use of knowledge through the eyes of the heart."

(Reply to this)

The Appellation of Delusional

vasilisablack
2004-07-17 03:05 pm UTC (link)

Thought that I would reply in on here. I will give my stance on this topic as objectively as possible. I personally do not like the word delusional applied to anyone by anyone simply because they do not agree with that person's beliefs. The dictionary definition is given as a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence. It is very easy to label another person as delusional. Yes, I am Otherkin by the way. I do agree with the clearly obvious fact that we are not physically other creatures. Unless some person says that they are something else physically and you look at them and clearly see a human being, then that is a true delusion. In order for any belief to be demonstrated to be an actual delusion, you have to also offer empirical evidence of how and why they are delusional. Otherwise, this is only your own opinion and nothing more. The claim of being Otherkin is a matter of personal belief and as such can neither be proven or disproven by scientific means. If they say however that they can physically transform into an animal, I myself would consider that mental state to be an actual delusion. I could also easily claim that a lot of the people in this country are delusional because of following this lo-carb craze, but I personally think most people are so insecure about the appearance of the slightest bit of body fat that they avoid carbs at all costs. There is a certain expression that I am fond of, Don't condemn what you don't understand.

(Reply to this)

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