DISHOOM! ([info]setsuna) wrote in [info]death_note,
@ 2007-02-28 23:16:00
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Mr. "Raito" is Mr. Wrong
I needed an excuse to write this. Looks like I got it. Consider it a birthday un-present.
This has nothing to do with dating, but rather collects together my arguments as to why Light is so thoroughly wrong.

1. A little about where I stand on the characters.


The trouble with L
    I think L is adorable, but he just didn't get enough development to really come into his own. I.e., he is the good guy. He happens to have a lot of quirks. He likes Macs, perches like a street urchin on living room furniture, and hot damn, that looks like mascara. But he just didn't get enough backstory. So for a while, though I thought he was my favorite character, I realized I thought he needed more dimension.

The trouble with Light
    Light, on the other hand, has a bit more dimension. He starts out as a brilliant brat. I nearly gave up on him, and would have entirely, but for the (spoilers!) episode where he temporarily forfeits ownership of the Death Note and all of his memory of being Kira -- and grapples with, for once, genuinely trying to catch the killer while being disturbed by his own sympathies for some of the killer's choices. Yay, he wasn't being a total ass!
    However, he ruined it. He recovered the Death Note and all of his megalomania. Sigh. If he didn't take himself seriously when he made those allusions to being the god of a new world and all, I think I'd really like him, as a character. But that last bit, as soon as I realized, "Okay, wait, no, this is stupid, but he's not kidding..." just made me realize he was in la-la land and there was just no saving him.
    "I'm too sexy for my stationery!" Fine, fine, you did good with your tools, you can do your Tiger Woods fist-pumping and your victory dance, but a little prudence, please?
    If only he just winked at Ryuuk.
    "I am the god of the new world!" *wink* "Psych!" See, that would have made it all better. Then not only would he be Kira which is playing a joke on everybody, but he'd be telling his inner circle he thought he was god, and also would be playing a joke on them. Then nothing has a hold on you, not even the ego of being a capital-g GOD, and that makes you a cooler character, IMO. Be thorough, dammit, and don't believe your own media machine. *sigh*
    But no such luck. At least he wasn't emo, philosophizing all the time. Being god has a decisiveness about it, so even if that puts you in la-la land, it frees the rest of your brain up for action, I guess.

Light's name

    I wonder if the author was thinking of Lucifer when writing the character of Light. My understanding is that the original name of Lucifer is, literally, the "Morning Star," and he was an angel of light in his own right. Then, of course, Lucifer, the original Lucifer, got too big for his britches and got booted out. Sucks to be him. Is there a connection?
    The kanji for Yagami Light is 夜神 月. My kanji's a bit rusty, but I believe that makes his last name, literally, "night god," or "evening god." So you, what, have a light, the moon, in the night? Light in the night? Morning? Just a thought.
    Name aside, the fall from grace seems quite obvious. Lucifer, too, started out as a good guy. Angelic good guys, apple of everyone's eye (haw, haw), and both, in seeking to create a new empire, were eventually put back in their place. What goes up... must come down.

So. I think L is cute but dull after a while. I think Light has a compelling fall-from-grace story, but is, at the end of the day, a sucker for his own myth and too immature to see beyond it. Now, the main point.

2. That's not justice
.

The modern Panopticon

    In the late eighteenth century, the English philosopher Jeremy Bentham designed a prison. It was circular, with a central core for the guard(s) and all of the holding cells radiating from the central core. The guard or guards could sit at leisure in the center and see, at any time, exactly where a prisoner was in his cell and exactly what any of the prisoners was doing. The prisoners, for their part, could not see their guards. They could not know when they were being watched, indeed, or if they were being watched at all. Like having a constantly recording security camera directly on you at all times, you knew that someone might have the ability to see what you were doing at any time... and since you could never check, you had to assume that they were watching you all the time.
    This, indeed, was the entire point of this prison's design -- to play on each's prisoner's natural paranoia, and natural conclusion that he was always being watched, to keep the prisoners well-behaved.
    It occurs to me that although nobody has made the connection, this is Light's premise as well. I believe (I read the manga last year, if I'm wrong tell me) at one point (spoiler!) he decides he needs to rein in Mikami because Mikami is punishing criminals who have sincerely repented/done their time. This demonstrates that Light's purpose is to augment what he thinks is a limp and toothless justice system. If the justice system's punishments on their own are not stopping crime, they are not harsh enough!
    He wants mind control, just like Bentham's design. He needs to be that invisible guard, always there, and always scare the living daylights out of criminals who would offend or re-offend, such that they just don't do it for fear of being caught. His killings are like spot checks, proof that yes, he is paying attention and his killing mojo still works. The fact that his killings are continuous in turn proves that Kira's is a full-time job, and yes, he's always watching.
   
Serving scapegoats to the vain philosopher king

1. There's no shortcut to justice, so be prepared to become a toy for criminals

    But oh, I don't care if Light is hot and a smarty-pants who tops the nerd charts. Smart is one thing, and wise is another. Light is firmly, most firmly, in the former category.
    Have you ever noticed that whenever just about anyone makes an argument about smart people or stupid people, they generally assume they are one of the smart people? Plato's utopia would be ruled by a philosopher-king; he apparently said, "Philosophers [must] become kings…or those now called kings [must]…genuinely and adequately philosophize." Notice that Plato was a philosopher. I'm jumping to conclusions, but I do wonder if he wouldn't just love that top job in his ideal world. Light falls prey to the same sort of argument: "I am smart and competent enough; the world would be so awesome if everyone would just do things my way!"
    Except, my dear boy, you are fallible. I think that the manga made a big mistake in not pointing this out, or at least mentioning ONE story like this...
    Anyhow. Imagine for a second that someone with Light's abilities surfaced in the world today. Criminals die in numbers and with an efficiency unprecedented anywhere. Eventually people realize that what's needed for a criminal to die is a nice big media report.
    Hmm. So if I want someone to die, I need to get him or her in the news for doing something reeeally bad. And then this criminal-killer will kill him and say he has punished the guilty. Nice!
    Come on, please tell me, the next step is obvious, right?
    Stories of framing!
    "I hate my wife and want to divorce her. I also hate my mother-in-law. It happens my wife hates her mother. There's an opportunity here -- I will kill my mother-in-law next Thanksgiving and make it look like my wife did it. Then, see you dear, you won't survive the six o'clock news."
    Yeah. I think that in the real world, Light would have to deal with a TON of false reports... and would find out time and again that he got the wrong person. He might reason that it is just going to be the sacrifice of innocents in the greater picture of the quest for justice... but the point remains. Light is a slacker who doesn't do his own investigative journalism on all the criminals in the world, nor could he if he tried. He's at the mercy, yes, at the mercy of media information.
    Impeccable power to punish without something approaching decent power to properly convict does not a justice-maker make.

2. The issue of succession

    The manga got this one -- power to kill or no, Light is gonna die eventually. And then, who is going to succeed him?
    Gotcha there. Light thinks nobody on earth is as hot as the particular species of hot shit that he represents. So nobody can replace him. So nobody will replace him. And like all big-ass eras that dictators dream up (usually in 1000-year denominations), his Kira Era is doomed to die at least at the same time he does. Pretty unstable god plan, let alone society blueprint, if you ask me.
    Sorry, kiddo, your party will have a curfew.

The justice by many is the only kind we can depend on

    I recently watched the second Death Note movie, and yet I forget what exactly Yagami says in defense of the imperfect current justice system. Something about it being people's best shot. Or the best they can come up with. My argument here is along the same line, but hopefully a bit more articulate and memorable. ^_^;

1. The conspiracy we all agree to

    Suppose you walk out the door tomorrow morning to pick up the newspaper the paperboy threw onto your lawn. You see your neighbor across the road and wander to the sidewalk to chat. Your neighbor's huuuge German shepherd runs up to you, gets your legs hopelessly tangled up in his leash -- and just as a car is coming, he darts out into the road, pulling you with him.
    The dog is mortally wounded. You, in turn, break your arm. You don't know it, but you've cut an artery, and you're bleeding at a rate with minutes to live. Somehow your roomie woke up early this morning, and has called 9-11. What happens next?
    In the first ending, the paramedics arrive. The head medic comes out, looks at you, and says, "Oh, I've never seen this particular person before. I don't know how his/her body works. I can't do anything, sorry." You die.
    In the second ending, the paramedics arrive, and the head medic comes out, looks you over. He has never met you in his life, but he makes an intuitive judgment based on all his years of treating people of all shapes and sizes. He knows where to apply pressure to stop the bleeding. He knows to call the medics to load you up into the van like so. While you are in the van, he directs them to put inflatable pants on you to stabilize your blood pressure.
    In the end, you've lost a lot of blood, but you survive.
    The point of this being that there are many things about people that work the same way. He has not met you personally, but he has known enough people -- who, together, share enough with you to inform him about how to treat you -- so he still intuitively knows how your body works and can save your life.
    Well, that was your arm. Let's replay this for a second. What if in the accident, you had hit your head? What if instead of a medic speaking, it was a brain surgeon?
    Brain surgeon 1: "I've never seen this brain before. You know, all brains are so different. How can you expect me to operate on this one?" You die.
    Brain surgeon 2: "Hang on. This is a deep wound... (but I have 25 years of experience and have seen areas and wounds like this before.)" She does her thing. You live.

2. The analogy

    Let's replay this in a completely different setting. Suppose, this time, you were standing in the middle of the road, with your dog who stubbornly insisted on stopping and sniffing something there, and you just can't pull him away. It's in the morning, and you're hoping your dog will just finish up and you can get back on the sidewalk. Not so.
    That same car comes barrelling down the road. This time the driver is drunk, yup, in the morning, and you and your dog look like a fairy to him. Your dog tangles you up in his leash for a second, and you can't move! Just as the car is about to make an impact, the dog untangles himself and runs free -- but not fast enough for you to move. You die. Your dog is sad, the car is smushed. The driver is still going on about fairies, is arrested, and brought to court. It's the day of the trial. What happens next?
    Ending 1. The judge looks at your family and says, "Well, I never knew the victim, and the victim is no longer alive to speak for him/herself. Justice is all relative, and what is fair for one person isn't fair for the next... there is no way to arrive at any kind of decision on this." The case is thrown out of court.
    Ending 2. The trial proceeds as normal. There is a jury, there are witnesses, and although you are dead, the drunk driver is tried, convicted, and punished on your behalf.

3. So, my point.
    The safest way of taking a crack at a justice system is the democratic one.
    First of all, the more people involved in the carriage of justice, the less likely they will all be taken for fools (i.e., taken for a ride by savvy criminals using the media, as could have easily happened to Light.) So it is more stable, as I've pointed out before.
    Secondly, justice determined by one person is only fair to that one person. I.e., Light's brand of justice is really going to be fair to Light alone. The fewer the number of people involved in the making of laws and the carriage of justice, the riskier it will be that that small group of people will choose in a way somehow detrimental to everyone else. The inverse is true. The more people who have input in the justice system, the more likely the laws will be more general in order that the most people can agree with them. This makes this type of justice slower, true, but it also thereby provides an incredibly potent safeguard by making it more likely that what is finally agreed upon is really a fundamental principle that most people share. (I.e., innocent until proven guilty -- instead of Light's "die if you risk exposing me.")
    And finally, the democratic method is the only self-sustaining, self-renewing type of justice. As mentioned, Light's brand dies with him. An impersonal brand of justice, however, that is always changing, even slowly, is always adapting itself to new realities of what people need in a justice system. And because it is a product of several people, hopefully, not the ego-project of one person, it can live on long after even the most well-meaning crime-fighter working within its framework has gone.

So, Light, nice try, but I wouldn't want the world's justice system dependent on your whims, and hanging on your mortal shoulders. You meant well, your game grew to control you, and boy, am I glad you're a fictional character.

Thanks for reading. ^_^



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[info]fusakugyoku
2007-03-01 07:45 am UTC (link)
Great read! It sort of makes me feel that there's no way Ooba wasn't trying to tell a message with her story (although I guess the fact that false reports is never an issue proves that Ooba didn't really think things through that well). (and I love your sarcasm XD)

Can I ask you permissions to post this, with full credit to you, on DeathNotes (deathnotes.kefi.org), a website that hosts Death Note analysis and essays from all over the web?

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[info]fenm
2007-03-01 08:29 am UTC (link)
(although I guess the fact that false reports is never an issue proves that Ooba didn't really think things through that well)

There's another big problem with this, too. Did we ever find out who Jack the Ripper really was? The Zodiac Killer? Didn't it take decades to find out who the Green River killer was? My point is: Kira can ONLY kill people who's real names are accurately reported in the news. But there are a lot of criminal whose names were never known, or only discovered decades later, and some of them are far from petty criminals. So while he's offing Jose the gangsta, James the serial rapist-killer-cannibal goes unpunished. And while Jose may well deserve punishment, so does James. So, how can what Light/Kira does be true justice when some people can escape it simply because we can't figure out the their names? Hell, that seems like a HUGE hurdle to overcome, and one that the book never really addresses. And seeing that knowing their names is a big part of how the DN works, it really should have been addressed... seriously he got the names of ALL the gangsters in the US so he could wipe them out in book 9? That's harder to swallow than the existence of shinigami.
And, yes, how long after hearing "so-and-so committed such-and-such crime" does Light write the name down? What if they're actually innocent? And not even a case of them being framed; what if it's an honest mistake? Imagine if he'd been watching the information about the bombings at the Summer Olympics in 1996? Would he have offed Richard Jewell? Whoops, that would have been a mistake, ne?

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[info]satancat
2007-03-02 01:51 am UTC (link)
hmm...I think what raito intended was to have the rest of the world grow paranoid enough to think that there was some superior being conscious of every single crime...I really don't want to sift through the chapters now, but I'm just about positive that his plan was to change people's psyches, rather than truly killing alllll of teh bad guys.

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[info]fenm
2007-03-02 06:50 am UTC (link)
But surely people figured out that only crimes reported on the news were punished? And as soon as people figure that out, he loses a lot of his effectiveness.

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[info]satancat
2007-03-05 01:37 am UTC (link)
True, but the majority of the people are probably foolish enough to fall for his bluff. Unless Dateline does a special on "The Truth About Kira." XDD Then that would suck for Raito.

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[info]fusakugyoku
2007-03-02 11:20 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, but I guess I'd be the first to admit that Light's no longer concerned about innocent people; he tries to justify himself by saying he'll only bump off those who defy him, but is that really an excuse for killing his own father? Even more importantly, he even thinks about killing Misa, who not only is NOT against him, but is one of his staunchest supporters; there is no reason, by his own morality, for him to kill her. He believes himself to be so morally superior that standard social morals fall below him, which essentially makes him amoral; at the beginning of the series, he probably should have had qualms about killing potential innocents, but by the end these have all disappeared.

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:43 pm UTC (link)
I am *so* sorry it took me an eon and a half to get back to you!

I botched the second part of this writeup (done in hurry and when tired), but I think I'd be okay with having it posted! ^_^;

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[info]fusakugyoku
2007-05-02 11:55 pm UTC (link)
Awesome! Thank you so much for your contribution!

I've just uploaded your essay onto DeathNotes (http://deathnotes.kefi.org/essays/smeioh_mrraito.html), and I've credited you as smeioh, with a link back to this post. Is that all right with you?

Thanks again!

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-03 01:47 am UTC (link)
That's lovely, thank you!

I have two questions.

1) If I revise this "essay", can you replace it on the site? (As I mentioned, I botched the second part...)

2) I am thinking of posting a philosophical (?) debate on this issue shortly, where I argue both for and against Light's use of the Note.

Either I'll write a straight out essay...

...or, because the idea was prompted from an RP situation, I'm tempted to try my hand at writing it as a dialogue debate.

If it's formatted as a debate, would it be eligible for the site?

Thanks again!

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[info]fusakugyoku
2007-05-03 02:00 am UTC (link)
1) Absolutely! If you ever want to change anything, even something as small as a couple or words or adding in reference, feel free to ask at any time (I'm tracking this topic of course, but you can e-mail revision to me at fu.sakugyoku@gmail.com)

2) That sounds really interesting! It sounds like it would actually be able to get the point across even more effectively than a standard "essay." DeathNotes is pretty lenient about format; lots of the "essays" on the site are actually more like rants and musings anyways ^^;;;. (It's excessively lax to a fault; I'll be the first to admit it.) There's definitely no requirement for structured paragraph form or other really formal conventions, as long as it has some interesting insight to offer.

<3 Thanks again!

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-07 12:53 am UTC (link)
Hey! The only revision I have right now... is that my username is now "setsuna" . ^_^;;

As for the new essay -- man, I just might collapse this into a bigger chara analysis. O_o; Glad there's some flexibility, though! I think a debate could be really, really effective!

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[info]fenm
2007-03-01 08:03 am UTC (link)
Very, very nice! A few of my favorite points:

power to kill or no, Light is gonna die eventually. And then, who is going to succeed him?

Yeah.. Even if there is a Kira follower who wants to take up the mantle and actually finds a DN of her.his own, it won't the same. They might have different ideas about who should die, they might have a different way of going about it, they might not be as smart and get caught (especially since there people on "our" side of the law who know about the Book now), etc...
So, yeah... Bye, bye, baby.

Secondly, justice determined by one person is only fair to that one person. I.e., Light's brand of justice is really going to be fair to Light alone.

Indeed. And it also becomes a form of justice that only reflects his/her morality and idea of justice. What if, say, he agrees that drugs should be illegal and users should thus be punished, while another person thinks that drugs--or at least some of them--are ok to use, and wouldn't want say, a marijuana smoker punished. Under a more community-based from of justice, this would be discussed and voted on, and there might even be some give and take in the justice system even if it is illegal. In a one-person justice system, that person decides, END OF STORY. So if he hates drugs, that's it. No appeal, no discussion. People could send out pleas to this person to try and persuade and convince him otherwise, but if you fail, that's it.

Oh, about L. First off, it's bags under his eyes... he doesn't sleep much. And I agree, it would have been nice to know more about his background. [sigh]
Well, I think I've gone on long enough.

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:45 pm UTC (link)
So sorry for taking so long to reply here. I'm very happy you enjoyed reading this!

Haha, poor L. Though for bags... those are pretty flattering. ^_^;

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[info]aiulen
2007-03-01 08:15 am UTC (link)
(note: my english is not so good...)
I think that the message of the author is to show that people who think like Light are, in fact, wrong. I suppose you've read all the story, (if not, SPOILERS) so you must have arrived to that conclusion too. I think the message is what "someone" (I don't remember who) says: that making people behave correctly by their fear is not fair (or something like that).
It makes more sense if you suppose that the author is an atheist, because in the end they said that there's no place to go after you die.
I don't know if Light has something to do with Lucifer; I always thought of him as a characterization(?) of God. I don't pretend to start a religious discussion, it's only one point of view: we all know that a lot of people has always used the image of God to create fear and impose arbitrary laws and beliefs. (I'm not talking about religions, just about the people who use them for their own interests. Though for atheists this is about religions too).
So, if you keep supposing that the author is an atheist, it makes a lot of sense that Light represents God or people who try to be God or think that they're God's messengers. Also, it can be anyone who claims to own the only truth and justice...
In general, I agree with you, but I don't understand if you see this as the message of the story or at the contrary ?_?
Well, I don't know what else to say. It was very interesting to read your point of view ^^
(and somebody tell me please if the author is atheist or not xD cause I don't know)

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:47 pm UTC (link)
I think the author said it was all open to interpretation in HTR 13 (?). Very hard to pin down his/her personal moral opinion.

Thanks for reading!

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[info]quaedam
2007-03-01 08:31 am UTC (link)
I love you. (No, really. ^^) And so much word. I don't understand the idea of objectively approving of what Light does as a GOOD IDEA either (to me, he wants to do what the Grand Inquisitor wanted to do. . .though I wouldn't even give Light credit for having his heart in the right place--that is, in empathy with the suffering of mankind in an unjust world--it's made too clear from the start that he wants to use the Death Note because it gives him, personally, some sense of meaning, certainty, and self-definition in a meaningless world--his motives are entirely selfish).

I would say, though--I don't think that it would have been possible for the author to give L greater definition--at least, in the sense of letting us know more of what his own ethical or moral beliefs are, if he has any, etc.. Ohba has said, I think, that the main idea she wanted to convey through her manga wasn't primarily anything to do with trying to sell one idea of justice, good, or evil but rather, the idea that the world is morally neutral and death comes to everyone in the end whether we choose to think of them as 'good' or as 'bad'.

I think she's made an effort not to put any authority behind any of the characters' beliefs--the neat thing about the manga, to me at least, would be the fact that it allows the audience to choose freely who they think is right, or at rate the least wrong. ^^ You or I may think Kira's ideas are lousy, but plenty of people intelligently disagree, and the author and the manga do nothing to dissuade them. But L is set up in such a position to be read as the 'good guy', or at least to seem to be the character the author most approves of (from certain things she's said, she seems to identify with him a bit), that if we knew too much more about what he himself *believes* (if anything) then the reader would be under some impression that the author means for him or her to agree with him, or side with him. (As far as we know, L simply opposes Light because doing so makes him who he is, just as the Death Note makes Light who he is (the whole exchanging of names that goes on between the two of them--when L dies, Light takes his name--suggests that this is a fight for identity on each of their parts, as much as anything else). The whole 'justice will prevail' thing isn't so much a statement of belief as of confidence in his own strength--since in this manga's world, might makes right in the short term, though everyone dies in the end. :))

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for reading! Glad you liked it.

And L and Light... it's been a while since I wrote this now, but I'm beginning to see both as somewhat amoral. :(

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[info]quaedam
2007-05-02 05:36 pm UTC (link)
Oh, absolutely--I agree. I absolutely think they are both amoral--even if L is what you might call a more mature aesthete than Light, neither one has made that leap to becoming an ethical person. (Neither has, as Kierkegaard would say, yet chosen 'Either/Or'--both still exist *outside* good and evil.)

That said, I tend to think that if either one had managed to *lose* and yet live, either one might yet have been shaken out of his solipsistic complacency and his absolute belief in his own superiority and strength. Both L and Light act like immature or adolescent personalities--'childish sore losers', as they themselves say--they act like characters of little actual experience who have lived largely in their own heads. Death and other harsh realties are not *really* real to either of them, and so it means little to either Light or to L to inflict death or suffering on others.

Light's fear at the end is important, I would say, since it shows how little reality all this has ever had to him--for all the death he'd visited on others, he never really *understood* it. He's not a character like, say, Johan Liebert from Monster, or any other Nero or Caligula-like character who's truly managed to become 'superhuman', or rather *inhuman* in his utter disregard for life up to and including his own--Light actually fears death more than he ever knew he did. And I'd say this is the most hopeful thing one can say for him--he remains at least that human.

Had either L or Light ever gotten the opportunity to 'grow up', been faced with death and his own finite weakness and yet still survived, I think that either of them (L more than Light, but still both) at least *could* have eventually learned empathy, ethical concern for their fellow man, and so forth.

But for all that they're very similar and neither is quite 'good', I wouldn't put the two absolutely on a level. L has no interest in exercising power over others on a large scale as Light does, and L is at least the character who's setting out to *discover* the truth as opposed to the character setting out to *create* truth by force of will. (That first forceful 'I *AM* JUSTICE' nonwithstanding. ^^) We see L in an attitude of doubt, see him being persuaded to change his mind as Light never (as I recall) does. And when L dies, he looks. . .*enlightened*, as though he has finally discovered the truth and is at least somewhat glad of it for its own sake. Light would never say 'So I was not wrong' in that way, since Light *cannot* be wrong--he has set out to make himself god and to *create* right and wrong.

(AUGH, I'm sorry--I've been writing essays lately and CANNOT SHUT IT OFF. XD)

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 05:53 pm UTC (link)
I need some of your essay-writing mojo! :O

(I am running out of steam. :P)

You bring up a very good point. One aspect of the Death Note that makes it so powerful is that you can kill at a distance. You never necessarily touch the victim. You never necessarily see them. Someone else cleans up after you.

You are detached.

So.

I think the only person Light actually touches who he kills is L, right? And L haunts him for the rest of his life.

As for the others... the psychological weight of everybody he kills possibly never, ever hits him. They are all statistics, so far removed from his line of sight that they do not factor into his mental equation. It's like dealing in imaginary, paper deaths. Light of course knows intellectually that they're real... but that isn't enough to make an impact on him.

...And so, that might make it easier for him to get carried away (and keeps him from maturing)?

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[info]quaedam
2007-05-03 01:15 pm UTC (link)
Yes, just so--L was the only one Light touched when he died--and even then, Light did not have to stab him or *directly* choose to kill him (indeed, in this case, Light didn't actually write the name in the book himself, couldn't know the exact moment when Rem would choose to write it either, didn't even directly *tell* her to write it--that part of effecting the murder was even *less* hands-on than usual).

This is why I'm never entirely convinced by the idea that Light really is or was always a 'psychopath'--even the little throwaway line about his being unable to sleep, the brief scene of him retching in the alleyway after killing the man in the street, display too much emotion for that. And an actual psychopath, the sort who starts out killing animals as a child because he just can't help himself, would never be fully satisfied with the Death Note--it's too abstract, too detached. I think that such a person would eventually have *needed* to kill people in a more hands-on way, or to kill more of them for less reason. But even to the end, Light restrains Mikami from killing people who don't fit his idea of who does or doesn't *deserve* to die, and we never see him even act *tempted* to try stabbing or strangling or shooting a person who gets in his way--that never even seems to occur to him. The whole thing really never comes home to him as more than a prolonged thought-experiment, I don't think--not until the *very* end.

It seems to me that the author (and for that matter, the anime) both emphasize more how *ordinary* Light is (aside from his intelligence) than how exceptional he is--hence the slightly pathetic and fragile quality about him (especially at the end, of course). And there's definitely an irony in the fact that all his overblown delusions of grandeur and godhood are finally based on nothing more than just *writing names in a book* (the writing-names-in-the-book scenes in the anime are so melodramatic and overplayed as to be actually funny and slightly embarrassing ^^)--and that a book which came to *him* entirely by accident, and through no fault or merit of his own.

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-07 06:34 am UTC (link)
I'd have to disagree about Light directly choosing to kill L -- that was probably the death he spent the most time plotting and planning, and executing. But you're quite right, he definitely delegated the "dirty work". The blood on his hands was the conceptual variety.

Three disclaimers: I haven't read the manga in a year. I don't watch the anime. Finally, I don't know the definition of a psychopath. That said:

Re: the retching/sleeplessness you mentioned. Is this after killing the guy who was assaulting the woman outside the bookstore, or after he started his Kira crusade? If he started retching after the Kira crusade, that might discredit my theory below.

Re: psychopathic or not. If the definition of psychopathic (?) killing would be for the reaction, or some kind of perverse thrill in seeing victims suffer, then Light doesn't fit the bill. I think the most gruesome he does were the "experiments" where he had victims do some cryptic moves. But, again, this was done with the detached manner of a (messed-up) scientist.

Perhaps a parallel with Josef Mengele is more fitting? He too performed all sorts of disgusting experiments -- but he did not, IIRC, consider his victims to be human... Light would have to acknowledge the victims as human and be interested in their reactions to get a kick out of that.

...I don't know if that makes him better or worse, actually. *shudder*

This is me living in a little denial of my own, but I like to think that Light isn't that ordinary. The more ordinary he is... the more possible it becomes to imagine that the kind of horror he perpetrated could have happened if anyone had picked up the book. (And maybe he was just good at not getting caught.)

I do think that Light is the biggest sucker, the biggest fool in the entire manga, though. I'm continuing to analyze his behavior, off and on... (I'll probably post another essay sometime...) and I think he was the only one to really and truly believe -- hook, line, and sinker -- his own lie. Beyond Mikami, beyond everyone. He built a fanaticism around his own idea of self-righteousness, and became so incredibly blind that he became its biggest victim. Totally blinded. Totally taken in.

However... while I think 40 (?) seconds was enough for him to realize that yes, he is mortal, and his death wasn't going to be an imaginary, distant one...(also, "crap, I have so much more Kira work to do, I can't die now!") hence the panicking... I think that 40 seconds was too short for him to realize that he was a fool to his own charade.

I think if the full extent of that had hit him in some kind of overpowering flash of insight, he'd have been paralyzed by the horror -- and it would have instantly shut him up.

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[info]saaraneth
2007-03-01 11:35 am UTC (link)
I enjoyed reading that - wow it must have taken a while to write. Haha funny pun in the title.

I agree that democracy is the best judgment system there is, but I always thought that after Light established his Kira kingdom then it wouldn't matter if he died or not, people would still be scared. Like in 1984 - they don't know if Big Brother is still alive or not, but they still feel scared. Of course, in that case there were the telly screens actually monitoring them 24/7 and the secret police...but I figured Light could set up those things when he came to power. I guess if he set up his very own secret police, that'll deal with the problem of false reports?

Light is extremely immature though you are right - I think this was mentioned in the series? L says something along the lines of both Light and himself being immature and hating to lose. Light has a lot of bad points, but that's why he's still my favorite character, even though I make fun of him a lot. =) Like drawing a mustache on his face...lol.

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[info]fenm
2007-03-01 06:35 pm UTC (link)
but I always thought that after Light established his Kira kingdom then it wouldn't matter if he died or not, people would still be scared. Like in 1984 - they don't know if Big Brother is still alive or not, but they still feel scared.

Ah, but here's the thing: Even under an All Seeing Eye, people will STILL commit crimes. ALWAYS. Because they're too crazy to stop themselves, or think they're too clever to get caught (and maybe they are--Kira's methods are FAR from perfect), or something. So, yes, Kira's around and killing them. But then... people start to realize that criminals are NOT suddenly dying. They figure out that the All Seeing Eye is gone, for whatever reason, and it's back to business as usual.

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Glad you enjoyed!

And, oh yes, Light is so much fun to make fun of. Pompous ass. ^_^;

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[info]grendelity
2007-03-01 12:55 pm UTC (link)
Oh, this was very well articulated. I wasn't expecting something this involved and intelligent at 7:52 am, so please forgive me if I don't match you. I do think it's an interesting point about Kira being at the mercy of the media; everyone in DN-verse seems to take for granted that the evening news is the gospel truth.

Though also I think it's important to step back a bit; I don't think Kira and his message was ever meant to be truly portrayed as "right"; it's as you said: that "this is stupid, but he's not kidding" reaction is the intended reaction. DN's Kira walks the fine line between elevated thinking and absolute stupidity. I would think that Ooba means to portray this to someone in order to make him/her think, "Wow, this is the stupidest philosophy I've ever heard. But--he's going through with it--and he doesn't get caught." It's Raito taking it as far as he does that makes the story. Et cetera.

I'm not making any sense, sorry. XD

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Light walks in such rarefied air that maybe his brain doesn't get the oxygen it needs anymore. *grin*

Thanks for reading!

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[info]kalium_kx
2007-03-01 04:41 pm UTC (link)
*claps*well said..well said indeed

you knew that someone might have the ability to see what you were doing at any time... and since you could never check, you had to assume that they were watching you all the time.

I could say this applies to Light since he felt that way and was rather paranoid..

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:50 pm UTC (link)
This is true. Thanks for reading!

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[info]bloodyfire
2007-03-01 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Well I really don't know what to say. I enjoyed reading this very much and agree with quite a few of your views, actualy it's the first thing I put in memories... bah I'm not very articulate.. so yeah thanks for putting this up.

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Aw, thanks! Glad you enjoyed reading it! :)

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[info]_nanimo
2007-03-02 05:58 am UTC (link)
Interesting, but I'm not sure what the point is. My understanding is that Deathnote is about flawed ideals, the true meaning of justice, and asking "where do we draw the line?"

In my opinion, Light was not created to represent the true ideal of justice, but instead show the way good intentions can be twisted and corrupted. A perfect world free of crime sounds wonderful, but how do you create that? Is it right to sacrifice lives to reach that ideal? Light believed it was. Mr. Yagami didn't. (If my memory serves me correctly, he spoke up against using bait at one point in the story, or something similar.) Matsuda represents many people who sit on the fence, unsure of what is truly justice.

People behave better when watched. If there are negative repercussions to a person's actions, there is less insentive. Light, like you said, takes this idea to a whole new level. In the Bible, there is a story where a group of men are about to stone a woman who has been caught in the act of adultry, according to the laws of the time. When asked if the woman should be stoned, Jesus replies "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." In order to punish the criminals, and create a sin-free world that he will rule, Light must believe he is superior to them. If he did not truly consider himself a god, how could he justify judging all other humans?

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:52 pm UTC (link)
My point, I think (it's been a while now) was just to get a set of arguments as to why Light's wrong onto paper. No more, no less!

The story offers a lot of other fodder for debate, though, that's for sure!

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[info]kissingchaos
2007-03-02 06:32 am UTC (link)
*high fives* Wow, that's a dead-ringer for some of the stuff I've said in the past, though I can't claim to be nearly as well-spoken. I've didn't really care for Light until he gave up his claim to the DN, which was then kind of painful because you could see what he *could* have become without the DN as a corrupter ... and then he went and screwed it all up. >.<

I wonder if I'm giving the mangaka too much credit when I say I'm willing to bet the media-trusting attitudes of the characters are part of a sort of greater social commentary on modern Japan, especially youth. (There's a sort of insulation that comes with the ability to have, at a tap of your fingers, just about any information you could possibly want. As for accuracy ... even knowing that say, Wikipedia is not the Encyclopedia Britannica, how many people still take what is printed there as absolute fact? It's a pretty easy thing to do, even for those that know better.) Add in the Kira acceptance crew and worshipers, too, and how fickle and easily led along they are.

And then, there's L, who somehow thought it necessary to build an entire freakin' skyscraper in the middle of the city to accommodate all of what, eight people (I know he said something about families moving in if they wanted, but even then he seemed to feel that capacity was like 30 max? BUH?) Who does that? I wondered for a while if it wasn't some sort of hint-of-lineage through slightly-mocking-perception-mocking, but I'm not really so sure on that one.

Blahblahblah wow sorry; I'm shutting up now, really. ToT

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[info]setsuna
2007-05-02 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Aw, thanks for reading! I'm glad you liked it. :)

I'm not sure if any of the manga is social commentary. I've tried to dig up the author's opinions, but s/he is frustratingly vague. :(

...And, yes, I guess some suspension of disbelief is always called for, in manga!

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