as n approaches infinity ([info]lacunarity) wrote in [info]death_note,
@ 2004-10-01 00:11:00
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I was poking around on the net and, completely un-Death-Note-related, I came across a reference to Asperger Syndrome. After reading the description, I felt that it really describes L well. I've always assumed that L has some sort of disorder or unusual mental state (and I suspected a type of autism, but didn't know enough about it to make a strong judgement).

This information is taken from OASIS: Online Asperger Syndrome Information and Support, mainly the "What is AS?" section.


(emphasis mine)
Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see. It's important to remember that the person with AS perceives the world very differently. Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior, and most certainly not the result of "improper parenting".

By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and theirnaiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context.



Diagnostic Criteria For 299.80 Asperger's Disorder
A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction L's intense gaze, incredibly bad posture, unusual way of holding cups/spoons/cellphones
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level L declares that Raito is his first friend
3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) It seems like even L's "spontaneous" social actions (tennis, bonding with Misa) have alterior motives. Has he ever done anything social without having a hidden meaning?
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity I disagree with this one, since L seems to care about his coworkers. Then again, he coldly allowed Raito to stay locked up far longer than necessary. It's difficult to tell what L is feeling, and what is genuine versus what is manipulative.

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus L and Justice
2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals L states he can't think properly if he can't have bare feet and sit a certain way. He also has a preoccupation with sweets
3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects L constantly chews on his thumb

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning Considering how, until recently, Watari was his only companion and he had no friends, I believe his social functioning was impaired. Even now, it doesn't seem like he can truly relate to other people.

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia
No comment on these last three, since we know next-to-nothing about L's childhood


I'm interested to hear what other people think of my analysis. I don't know very much about psychology (I've tried to stay away from it because whenever I hear about a syndrome, I start wondering if I have it) but I'd like to learn other people's opinions.

As for Raito...pure psychopath, through and through. (heh)



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[info]sub_divided
2004-10-01 01:19 am UTC (link)
Wonderful. XD Thanks so much so posting this! I still mourn the loss of sociopath Raito in recent chapters which I won't (continue to) spoil for you, so it's good to know that L also has some psychological deficiency.

It is almost certain, I think, that the author had these types of socially impaired people in mind.

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[info]miiol
2004-10-01 02:05 am UTC (link)
Oh wow, that's intriguing. o_o;; L does seem to view everyone as 'objects' rather than 'people', I think, so that works really well. I like the point about the vocabulary used. XD; Why L comes out with percentages seemingly at random points. XDXD;;

Thank you for sharing!

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[info]shino13
2004-10-01 02:35 am UTC (link)
It does seem like this was the template for L's character quirks. Wow.

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[info]mica_chan
2004-10-01 05:35 am UTC (link)
Hey, I liked it! Even though it's strange to think that L really have some kind of syndrome, this one fits him pretty well.

By the way, when you said "I've tried to stay away from it because whenever I hear about a syndrome, I start wondering if I have it", I thought: My God! I'm seeing myself here!! I also have the tendency to identify myself with the syndromes that I've hear about.

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[info]shino13
2004-10-01 06:08 am UTC (link)
You know, now that you mention it, I have practically all the signs, save for two or three. I guess everyone sees something in a syndrome, coz if there wasn't something there, it wouldn't develop into a syndroem, i think.

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[info]aishuu
2004-10-01 08:20 am UTC (link)
My brother has asbergers. trust me, it's not l.

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[info]yasako
2005-03-01 03:08 am UTC (link)
I know that this is a really old post, but my brother has Asperger's too, and it's DEFINITELY not L material. *LOL* How old is your brother?

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[info]kuroi_neko_nyo
2004-10-01 11:13 am UTC (link)
I don't think L has anything mentally wrong with him, I think he just acts the way he does because he isolates himself and therefore doesn't know what's socially acceptable and what's not. Also, most aspergers also tend to be very attention-seeking and L doesn't really act how he does for attention, he just doesn't know any better. Or, if he does, he doesn't care.

I don't think Raito's a psychopath, either, I think he's just corrupted like a rambling war vet. ;)

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[info]wareta_mado
2004-10-01 04:28 pm UTC (link)
I used to be best friends with a girl that was (and still) dating a boy with mild Asperger Syndrome. He would always wear shorts and would only do things a specific way, avoiding most social interaction unless he knew well enough. Besides L being seemingly much happier than the boy I knew, their personality quirks and mannerism are almost identical.

I just had to put in my 2 cents. ^.^;

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(Anonymous)
2004-10-01 05:13 pm UTC (link)
Wow, that is SO L! Great job! I wonder if that creator was actually going for this specific syndrome, of they were just trying to portray an odd individual. Maybe we'll never know.

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[info]chasingthewinds
2004-10-01 06:24 pm UTC (link)
One of my best friends has Asperger's Syndrome. Honestly, it's not L. His is a relatively minor case, but aside from having a LOT of difficulty opening up and getting his point across when he's speaking, he's normal. He has a lot of difficulty remembering simple things as well, especially names and events that took place.

L doesn't seem to have it. I think his quirkiness and behavior comes from a lack of contact with the outside world, and some sort of paranoid personality disorder rather than AS.

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[info]aishuu
2004-10-01 09:52 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. Asbergers also tends to have a lot more social adjustment problems than L - an unwillingness to adjust to the world... it's kind of hard to phrase, but if you've seen it, you recognize it. It's like a piece of the "hardware" we all come equipped with is missing. Both people with Asbergers I've known are incredibly self-centered, thus the focus inwards, and are incapable of understanding the world does not revolve around them.

L is odd, but I think he fits into the range of normal behavior (merely eccentric). His emotions and logic processes seem rational.

Raito as well, oddly enough. While we SAY he is a psychopath, there is no evidence of that in his formative years... he seriously believes in what he is doing (originally). He's amoral, not psychotic. Nothing "wrong."

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[info]aelice
2004-10-01 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Though to sociopaths, what they're doing isn't wrong to them. O_o Even if they think they have society's best interests in mind, it's to the point of acting out so brazenly and emotionless in Raito's case that determine's he's more harmful than amoral.

He HAS killed innocents, after all.

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[info]aishuu
2004-10-02 12:51 pm UTC (link)
So? Soldiers kill innocents. (Let's not go there...)

"The ends justify the means." How often do we hear that? Basically, I believe Raito starts out as perfectly sane. Actually, I think he's probably the sanest person I've seen - he weighs the facts, and makes a decision. Sociopaths aren't in it for "the greater good" and Raito was.

Raito may be a meglamaniac, a bit, but honestly, I think he's on the normal spectrum... originally. I think we WITNESS his descent into insanity.

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[info]aelice
2004-10-02 02:16 pm UTC (link)
You know you cant compare Raito to soldiers. They have to answer to superiors, they're bound by countless rules, etc. Every day, we ourselves unintentionally attribute to innocent deaths. Raito Googles criminals and executes them because he can. He executes people that get in his way. Is that not sociopathic behavior, to do such and believe they're justified because they think everybody else is wrong? He. Doesn't. Think. What he's doing. Is Wrong. That's why I consider him a sociopath. I think the Deathnote truly reflects on the person, but doesn't corrupt them. The person with the Deathnote has the freedom to kill or not kill. Misa isn't even inspired to kill, but does so only to meet Raito. Even before Raito knew all the rules of the Deathnote, he jumped ahead and took the initiative to use it to his twisted advantage. I'm not arguing on whether or not what he's doing/done is morally 'okay'.. but it IS sociopathic. I mean, I could totally see myself killing people if I were in Raito's situation, but I wouldn't disillusion myself to the point of thinking it wasn't wrong, especially if I killed people simply because they got in my way.

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[info]aishuu
2004-10-03 09:17 am UTC (link)
I think Raito is just acting out of a different set of morals. I tend to think he IS morally justified... until he crosses the line with the FBI agents. That's when we begin to see some sociopathic behavior... but I don't think he's a full-blown sociopath. It's complicated, but Raito started out as a "perfect student" who could be the "A student" in any school. We can relate. I was that student.

I think it comes down to the capotal punishment issue, really. Raito represents society.

Not going to argue the soldier thing, it's really hot-button.

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[info]chasingthewinds
2004-10-02 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, yes. I agree with you on the Raito thing...Raito is relatively sound of mind and does not exhibit characteristics of anything mentally wrong with him.

And, on a completely other note...you like Prince of Tennis and DeathNote. You're automatically spiffy in my eyes. Mind if I add you as a friend?

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[info]aishuu
2004-10-02 12:48 pm UTC (link)
Free friending policy, just drop a note on my journal so I can friend you back - had to go friends only recently.

I think we're too quick to "diagnose" people with something mentally wrong. People can act evil and still be thinking in perfectly rational fashions. We just may not agree with them.

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[info]drworm
2004-10-03 06:17 pm UTC (link)
an unwillingness to adjust to the world...

Ha! "Unwillingness..." Oh, if only I could figure out how to adjust to the world most people inhabit, I would most certainly be willing. In fact, I've been trying aimlessly for years, unable to understand what exactly I was meant to change within myself in order to see the world 'correctly.'

Asperger's Syndrome is a neurological disorder. It has nothing to do with willingness.

Not to mention that I had no idea these two people you know were acting as representatives of everyone with AS. Astonishing what one learns...

His emotions and logic processes seem rational.

People with Asperger's generally have sufficiently rational or logical reasons for whatever they think or do; that it doesn't happen to correspond with the majority perception is no fault of theirs.

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[info]aishuu
2004-10-03 10:57 pm UTC (link)
*shrugs* I'm speaking mainly from experiences with my brother - trust me, he's quite unwilling to see why the world doesn't work according to his wishes.

He's the most frighteningly practical person I know, in some respects, though.

I basically think of it as him having "a part missing." Something just doesn't function the way the majority does.

I should talk though. ^_~ I think we're all too ready to label people who deviate from the norm. It's why I don't like "diagnosing" characters.

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[info]drworm
2004-10-03 06:08 pm UTC (link)
People with Asperger's are individuals too. Sharing a defect in the brain does not mean every person with Asperger's acts and thinks exactly like every other.

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[info]chasingthewinds
2004-10-03 06:51 pm UTC (link)
Indeed, true. People are individuals. Just thinking...from my personal reference, just because someone has a couple of the symptoms does not mean that someone actually has the disorder. You could have a trouble with gaining weight and be a bit depressed, but that doesn't mean that you have urges to kill yourself.

I think it requires a little more information before you go diagnosing characters with certain mental disorders. In this case, for one, I don't think we've seen enough of L. For another, the information I know about AS and the friend I have that I deal with every day does not seem to have anything in common with L...from the way he acts or speaks or thinks.

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[info]drworm
2004-10-03 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Hah. Of course someone beats me to it. I've been toying with a look at L and Asperger's lately, but due to problems with my website I haven't been able to actually post it.

My best friend has AS and I most likely do as well. L is a funny character in my eyes because my initial reaction to him was disinterest; I couldn't see why people seemed so fascinated by him. After some thought I realized that I was having the same reaction to L that I had had to The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time which is a book by Mark Haddon about a boy with AS. Both characters were so familiar to me as to, initially, inspire boredom. At this point I've come to see L as a character who is comfortably familiar to me in the midst of a chaotic and complex story. I like him much more now that I'm more actively aware of the similarities.

I would like to point out that a lack of empathy does not indicate a lack of feelings. "Lack of empathy" is indicative of the inability of people with AS to recognize emotional signals in body and facial language, as well as the inability to intuitively deduce how others may feel or react. Most adults with AS have a limited grasp of the rules of socializing as well as an understanding of basic facial expressions (along the lines of "smiles are happy, frowns are sad"), though they will become somewhat confused at any variations. Please do not think that autistic people are incapable of studying, memorizing, and using 'normal' methods of social interaction. Some people with AS are quite incredible and uncanny mimics of vocal patterns, accents, gestures, etc.

What's interesting is that many people who are neurotypical display these characteristics at one time or another... the difference is largely in severity. Everyone has moments of slight clumsiness; I have difficulty performing tasks that require fine motor skills (including writing and typing the correct ways) and I cannot keep my balance if I close my eyes. Everyone has moments when they misinterpret signals from others; I have to continually ask others to tell me how they're feeling and my difficulty in recognizing social signals has distanced me from friends and helped to make dating almost unthinkable for me. Everyone has a certain amount of sensitivity to some form of sensory stimulation; deep voices, bright lights, chalk and charcoal, and being touched all cause me physical pain and I am so bothered by the sensations that showering and washing my hair are activities that are honestly difficult for me. Everyone has strong interests; I have developed long-lasting and intense interest in everything from eyeballs to rats to Andy Warhol, and can describe the life of presidential assassin Leon Czolgosz in depth. If you can't see the distinction, well...

In any case, I find everyone else's conjecture on this topic vaguely amusing. And it's still funny to me how much people seem to like L.

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I'm Going to Assume that You Really Were Amused by This
[info]sub_divided
2004-10-04 06:37 pm UTC (link)
...and that I won't be doing anything offensive by replying in a not-so-serious way. If I do, I'm sorry! I didn't mean to.

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time: An excellent book. I thought it was interesting for probably the same reason you thought it was uninteresting - I couldn't relate to the main character at all. I could find, after a while, certain patterns that allowed me to predict the way he'd react, but at no point did I intuitively understand his thought processes.

Mark Haddon, who wrote that book, is most certainly not an... er... Asberger (ARGH such an ugly term). He wrote it while pretending to be one, and he based his character's responses on those of the austistic individuals he'd worked with. Yes, he did work with austism, although I'm not sure if this also includes people with AS - probably it does.

What was my point? Oh, yes. I think that Obata Tsugumi wrote the character of L with AS in mind, only, unlike Mark Haddon, she didn't have any first-hand contact with actual Asbergers. Which is why all of the proof we've been listing has been pretty superficial - manerisms rather than actual thought processes, because whenever we see L thinking it is not so different from the way Raito thinks.

L cannot have AS because he is not an actual person! However, this does not mean that the author of the manga can't have read a description of AS and decided to base a character around it.

(And this is unrelated, but I also think Obata based Kira's character - not Raito's, but Kira's, when he's being sucked in by the Death Note - on a sociopath's profile. In general I prefer Raito to L both because I have a certain fascination with sociopathic behavior and because, sociopathic behavior aside, he's easier to understand. 'Cuz yeah, I don't really get L at all - ceratin parts of his character seem contradictory.)

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