the nappy robotrix ([info]cleojones) wrote in [info]deadbrowalking,
@ 2008-03-26 01:49:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:race and representation, wtf?

FIREFLY FEMINIST WANK Oh Yeah!! :D
This truly is something we need to weigh in on.

*sips her chai*

I think she raises valid points, mixed in with some crazy. There are icky race and sex issues, but for her, her own firm line against prostitution, for example, it's a lose for Joss no matter what.

Context is not something that would even be on her radar.

The last few paragraphs are particularly...interesting.

What say you, deadbro?!


(Post a new comment)


[info]ladyjax
2008-03-26 06:06 am UTC (link)
I'm staying off the main post because, dude, that is some crazy whoo ha. However, I do think that Joss gets a whole lot of cred for being a feminist and that's rarely ever interrogated. Yes, there's Buffy, et. al. and Zoe, Kaylee, River and Inara on Firefly and I do enjoy them but I also can't ignore the skanky race issues, dead lesbians (Tara) and tiny girls always in distress and not come away annoyed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]vito_excalibur
2008-03-26 06:20 am UTC (link)
Absolutely true. Maybe we could discuss it somewhere else in a non-crazy context? :/

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]alias_sqbr, 2008-03-26 06:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]polymexina, 2008-03-26 12:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyjax, 2008-03-26 06:37 am UTC

[info]unusualmusic
2008-03-26 06:19 am UTC (link)
Like you said, some of what she says makes sense. But some of it I don't agree with. Like the bashing on the prostitution thing. She thinks there is NO WAY ON EARTH that a women with choices would choose to be a prostitute. Well, that analysis applies to some women, not all. The stuff about there being no healthy interracial relationships that she knows of, therefore she automatically assumes that any interracial relationship is unhealthy and the white guy manipulates and hurts the black woman always is straight up bullshit. I get a vibe that she really, really dislikes whatever homo-eroticism that she sees, foe some reason. Hmm. And I find her annoyance at Zoe calling Mal sir, a bit misplaced. Its the army. Superiors are referred to as sir, period. The other stuff seemed to make sense on a casual reading, though.

(Reply to this)


[info]tacky_tramp
2008-03-26 06:26 am UTC (link)
I liked her point about the women speaking in questions and the men speaking in statements. Everything else ... well, that's radfem. Not my cuppa.

Edited at 2008-03-26 06:26 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]vito_excalibur
2008-03-26 06:57 am UTC (link)
Radfem is definitely one of my many flavors of cuppa, which makes me extra annoyed when people go and piss in it like that. :(

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]polymexina
2008-03-26 12:38 pm UTC (link)
that's like a standard TV observation tho... so no cookies.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]seaya
2008-03-27 02:26 am UTC (link)
It's a certain subset of radfem. Like, Dworkin. There's plenty other strains of it that aren't batshit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]tacky_tramp, 2008-03-27 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaya, 2008-03-27 03:08 am UTC

[info]amy_wolf
2008-03-26 06:28 am UTC (link)
Wow, that's shoehorning everyone into a box. Choosing to believe that Wash is a rapist because you've only ever known people in unhealthy interracial relationships?

I think Joss has a morbid fascination with misogyny, which complicates his efforts to be feminist and deal with sexism. It's like he's trying to send a good message, but his urge poke misogyny with a stick frequently overwhelms his ability to look critically at what results.

Which, given that he has a much bigger and louder public forum than most people has, he really needs to do more.

(Reply to this)


[info]alias_sqbr
2008-03-26 06:30 am UTC (link)
I think she raises valid points, mixed in with some crazy. There are icky race and sex issues, but for her, her own firm line against prostitution, for example, it's a lose for Joss no matter what.

Yes, that sums up my thoughts pretty much exactly.

I wonder if she's heard about the premise for his new show yet? :)

(Reply to this)


[info]redbrunja
2008-03-26 07:03 am UTC (link)
*shakes head*

You know, I think Whedon needs to be looked at critically, as with most of television, and don't think he's as groundbreaking as he thinks he is, he still has a far better track record with writing women than most television shows. (Which may sound like damning with faint praise, but I think the reason that so many people get so annoyed with him is that they expect him to be perfect.)

However... this girl is totally missing every drop of subtly and subtext in Firefly. Zoe is not objectified by either Wash or Mal, and her relationship with Mal, at least, has nothing to do with gender. And how about giving Joss kudos for having a married couple portrayed as interesting, worthy of storytelling time, and with an active sex life?

(Reply to this)

Tone, etc
[info]ametistina
2008-03-26 07:08 am UTC (link)
In the comments, one reader complains about tone. Yeah, that's right, tone again. Except what said reader is actually talking about is content (i.e. groundless assertions about Whedon raping his wife), and it annoys me that both commenter and OP call it "tone." The problem is not that she's angry, it's that she's crazy.

Rather than complain that Zoe calls her superior "Sir," why not wonder why the (white) man is always cast as the superior? Does the black guy have to be cast as the preacher? Where are the Chinese people? In her minute analysis of the script, she seems to miss acres of forest.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Tone, etc
[info]cereta
2008-03-26 11:38 am UTC (link)
That, yes. There certainly are very real race issues to comment on in Firefly. She seems to have missed all of them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Tone, etc - [info]cleojones, 2008-03-26 07:31 pm UTC
belated response - [info]cereta, 2008-05-04 04:41 pm UTC
Trying to follow the logic:
[info]darkrosetiger
2008-03-26 07:13 am UTC (link)
1. From watching his shows Joss Whedon has some skeevy race and gender issues. (agreed)

2. ?????

3. PROFIT!Therefore, Joss Whedon is a rapist. (huh?!)

Actually, I suspect that in her reality, 2 is actually "Joss Whedon is a white male", which to her, makes 3 a given.

It also means she completely missed what I see as the real race issue in Firefly, namely, the appropriation of Chinese culture in a show that doesn't have a single Asian person in the main cast. I'm much more interested in addressing that than in wild speculation about Joss' relationship with his wife.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Trying to follow the logic:
[info]tacky_tramp
2008-03-26 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Yes, the radfem definition of "rape" is any sexual encounter in which one of the participants "feels pressured," and the idea is that in a patriarchal society, women always feel pressured to have sex with men, so all male-initiated sex may as well be rape. Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin are behind that one, I think.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Trying to follow the logic: - [info]raincitygirl, 2008-03-27 04:33 am UTC

[info]kelleah
2008-03-26 07:16 am UTC (link)
I'm sorry, but I couldn't make it through all of that. The hyperbole was giving me a headache, and I found her casual use of the word "rape" more than a little disturbing. I don't know many women who have suffered through sexual violence who use the word with such abandon. I'm not saying they don't exist; I'm just saying I don't know that many.

I have no problem with someone questioning Joss's presumed "Feminist of the Year" award (Did no one watch the 6th season of Buffy?), but girlfriend came off as a wee bit unstable. Also, another comm revealed that she's screening comments and only unscreening the ones where people agree with the majority of her statements. Clearly, she's not looking for an open debate. Which is fine, it's her LJ. And god bless the poor soul who tries to engage her in that debate.

As far as Inara is concerned, I have serious problems with Joss's characterization. To me, she's my least favorite character on the show because she's always come off as a tool for Joss's liberal trumpet. An embodiment of "Hey, look at me! Look at how progressive and open-minded I am. There's prostitutes in the future who are respected and treated like pillars of the community! Aren't I awesome with my statement-making?!" Um, yeah. That's nothing special about that notion, and if he were truly forward-thinking, her profession would not be the end-all/be-all of her existence. It would merely be one aspect of her life and character. But since he only got to do 13 episodes, there's a part of me that's maybe, kinda, sorta willing to cut him some slack in the vain hope that there was actually more to Inara than her job and the weak-ass sexual tension she created with Mal.

Putting aside my disdain for Joss's blatant fetishization of East Asian culture that makes me squirm throughout the series, I never cared for Inara because like so many roles for women (regardless of genre), she exists solely for fanboy titillation. She's the 7 of 9 of Firefly. Other than her friendship with Kaylee, Inara's entire purpose on the show is to be someone's sex partner, possible love interest, and if she has some time, act as the shoulder to cry on. There's nothing truly progressive about her role, and she only seems to exist to make Joss feel like he's doing and saying something significant, as well as give fanboys and fangirls a happy while they watch her strut about the ship.

NB: I've met Morena Baccarin in real life. She seems to be a lovely woman. I don't consider her gorgeous, but I don't use that term as loosely as others tend to. And she seemed nice. Great taste in shoes. :-)

Now, I'm not gonna touch on the OP's clearly racist interpretation of Zoe. I don't know the woman's ethnicity, but it really doesn't matter. There's no fucking context to make that shit even remotely okay. Here's a thought: if you don't know of any healthy relationships between white men and WOC, maybe that's a reflection on you and the type of people you choose to associate with. And the entry's comments weren't much better. I love it that Zoe's strength is purely "violent and masculine." Project racist stereotypes much? And just out of curiosity, is it worse to have Zoe act in a violent and masculine manner (because former soldiers are so often dainty and squeamish), but still attractive and sexy, or would she prefer Zoe be violent and masculine, but look like she was hit in the face with a bag of nickels? Which is the greater disservice to women? To WOC?

This chick is all over the place. I'm tired. I'm going to bed.

(Reply to this)


[info]tielan
2008-03-26 09:49 am UTC (link)
Whoa. She's got points in that Joss' women could be better portrayed; but it's all filtered through this set of extremist-coloured glasses. And my instincts say that weighing in would only end in screeching matches and tears.

I do love how she doesn't know any black woman/white man relationships that are healthy and so no black woman/white man relationships can possibly be healthy. "There are more things in heaven and earth than are held in your philosophy, Horatio!"

On the question of feminism and racism in Firefly...

Something that a lot of people tend to miss in Firefly seems to be that the Firefly-verse is a future-extension/fantasy of or own universe.

In even an "enlightened" future version of our society, racism, sexism, and power imbalances all still exist. Most of the characters in conventional power are male. There aren't apparently any male Companions. The viewer's leader of the resistance is still a "white male" with non-white males are relegated to the background or the 'bad side': Book, the bounty hunter of Objects In Space, the Operative in the movie.

Joss does "safe women" - there's no doubting that. As he himself said after making the BDM, "I was trying to get away from the one girl saving the universe." (paraphrased)

And the Saviour Girl is still white.

I don't know. I can see what she's getting at, although I think she's gone too far. And although her attitude might be defensive on behalf of the bad history of white male/black female relationships, to me it contains echoes of "one of your own kind, stick to you own kind!" - as Anita sang to Maria in West Side Story.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]elusis
2008-03-26 08:28 pm UTC (link)
do love how she doesn't know any black woman/white man relationships that are healthy and so no black woman/white man relationships can possibly be healthy. "There are more things in heaven and earth than are held in your philosophy, Horatio!"

That particular flavor of feminism has always seemed to be about telling women their experience, and then declaring them "misguided" when they don't agree with The Feminist Opinion, rather than asking them to describe it themselves. See also: heterosexual sex, participation in sex work, femme gender displays, etc. If you don't agree with their portrayal of you and your life, you're clearly just so deeply seduced by the patriarchy that you Can't Possibly Get It.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2008-03-27 07:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elusis, 2008-03-27 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tangleofthorns, 2008-03-27 07:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-03-27 08:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tangleofthorns, 2008-03-28 01:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elusis, 2008-03-27 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tangleofthorns, 2008-03-28 01:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elusis, 2008-03-31 10:40 pm UTC

[info]starfishncoffee
2008-03-26 12:23 pm UTC (link)
I saw this on Whedonesque last night, glanced at it and I just couldn't bring myself to read the whole thing cause I was just too tired.
I do have to say that while I appreciate what she is trying to do here, I can't help but believe that she's so encumbered by her preconceived notions and assumptions that her analysis has little or no context. I also looked at the context and she's getting personal with Joss's marriage and she really doesn't need to go there. Really. That's not cool. You need to stick with the text if you don't have the evidence. Also her assumptions about interracial relationships are pretty off-base. Again, assumptions about things she has not evidence for.

But that said I'm going to read her whole essay later and come to a more informed conclusion.
I'm just a little bit apprehensive...

(Reply to this)


[info]unscrambled
2008-03-26 12:27 pm UTC (link)
That was a harsh first thing in the AM read.

There's no way I'm weighing in over there--when someone makes it that clear that any disagreement is going to be ignored/dismissed, what's the point?

Whenever a person starts a sentence with "Every black woman I've ever met says ____," you know you're in trouble.

As others have said, the race issue that's most prominent in Firefly is that everyone speaks Chinese, Chinese culture is everywhere, but, uh, there's no Chinese people. What.

The revealing part about hetero-relations where the only healthy het couple in the history of the universe is Andrea Dworkin and her partner--that's amazing. You know that if she was around when that info came out (who knows how old she is), she lost her bananas about it, and had to presume that her HERO would never participate in anything, yaknow, bad.

I have a lot of agreement for chunks of radical feminist theory (I don't think patriarchy is the primary contradiction, but I do think that it is pervasive, in need of analysis and resistance and dismantling), but dangit if (many) radical feminists don't do their best to make sure I never join them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ladyjax
2008-03-26 04:14 pm UTC (link)
The revealing part about hetero-relations where the only healthy het couple in the history of the universe is Andrea Dworkin and her partner--that's amazing. You know that if she was around when that info came out (who knows how old she is), she lost her bananas about it, and had to presume that her HERO would never participate in anything, yaknow, bad.

I read that and was like, "Whoa, whoa, WHOAAAAA!" I do remember when the news hit that Dworking was with a guy and it was akin to an atomic bomb dropping.

But yeah, to gloss over the skanky race stuff? Dead lesbians? just to get to rape? That made my head hurt.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]elusis, 2008-03-26 08:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragovianknight, 2008-03-26 09:10 pm UTC

[info]mollydot
2008-03-26 02:42 pm UTC (link)
It came up yesterday in a feminist community I'm in: http://community.livejournal.com/feminism_lives/25095.html

(Reply to this)


[info]tablesaw
2008-03-26 02:45 pm UTC (link)
(Delurking for linguistics.)
I counted the amount of times women talk in the episode Serenity compared to the amount of times men talk. The result was unsurprising. Men: 458 Women: 175. So throughout the first episode men talk more than two and a half times as much as women do. And women talk mainly in questions whereas men talk in statements. Basically, this means that men direct the action and are active participants whereas women are merely observers and facilitators.
I was curious about that second observation. It seemed anecdotal where the line counts seemed more precise. I was interested enough to do a little research.

It's not precisely accurate (I didn't have time to count individual sentences), but I checked to see how many lines contained questions. The percentage of lines that had questions out of all lines (men and women) is about one fifth (22%). Women were slightly higher (23.1%), and men were, consequently, slightly lower (21.6%). Looking at only the first half of the ep, the average was the same, but women were lower (18.6%), and men were higher (23.4%).

I got different counts for the number of lies because I worked from a transcript. To make it easier on Excel, every time a line of dialogue was broken in the script (like for camera-angle shift or stage directions) the continuation counted as a new line. The ratio is about the same as in the OP.

On the other hand, a very rough count of characters per line indicates that men spoke over three times as much as women. They didn't just have more lines; they had longer lines as well.

The spreadsheet is here, including breakdowns by character (Mal talks more than all the women combined).

(Reply to this)


[info]tablesaw
2008-03-26 02:56 pm UTC (link)
Gah: "different number of lines" not "lies."

(Reply to this)


[info]angelsscream
2008-03-26 04:47 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I should of drunk my coffee first.

Does joss have some skevey race issues and gender issues he has to sort out = hell yes.

Joss and his character Wash = Rapists = ??????What?

There are some good points in that essay but I feel that she's projecting her feelings on interracial relationships on Zoe/Wash's relationship. (How exactly are all interracial relationships abusive any more so than any other ones?) And I disagree on the sir thing (Commanding officer show of respect) and that Zoe is a token with 0 personality. In fact, if she watched the entire series and serenity she would see a balanced relationship without set gender roles of a interesting married couple who actually have sex. There are lots of things about Joss' verses that need examining (the fact that chinese culture is a backdrop but not one of the main characters are asian, his preoccupation with prostitution with Inara and in buffy the fact that most black folks either die {see above icon} or are evil, dead lesbians, and more stuff than I can think of with out finishing my expresso.) Its a shame because some of her points get drowned out by the straight crazy.

Edited at 2008-03-26 04:48 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]wight1984
2008-03-26 10:57 pm UTC (link)
I'm quite glad I read this entry. The repeated mention of 'dead lesbians' lead me to do some googling; I'd been completely blind to that issue before now!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]angelsscream, 2008-03-27 01:56 pm UTC

[info]myhappyface
2008-03-26 05:50 pm UTC (link)
So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession.

Wow. Wow. That is a lot of crazy for one post, and it unfortunately drowns out the occasional valid point she makes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]amy_wolf
2008-03-26 07:47 pm UTC (link)
See, I tend to think of the word "rapist" in terms of people actually forcing sex on other people. So her "Wash is a rapist" thing led to me visualizing him trying to force sex on Zoe.

It ended up with her knocking him senseless and dragging him to the medical bay so Simon could remove the mind-control implants.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]dragovianknight, 2008-03-26 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]raincitygirl, 2008-03-27 04:43 am UTC

[info]delux_vivens
2008-03-26 07:30 pm UTC (link)
What say you, deadbro?!

Corner.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
XD
[info]cleojones
2008-03-26 07:32 pm UTC (link)
*finishes up her cold chai, grabs a chocolate bar and trudges off*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: XD - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-03-26 07:35 pm UTC
Re: XD - [info]cleojones, 2008-03-26 07:50 pm UTC
Re: XD - [info]witchsistah, 2008-03-27 02:49 am UTC
Re: XD - [info]elusis, 2008-03-27 03:45 am UTC
Re: XD - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-03-27 03:50 am UTC
Re: XD - [info]angelsscream, 2008-03-27 02:07 pm UTC
i'm just wondering when women of color actually said that. - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-03-27 08:16 pm UTC
Re: i'm just wondering when women of color actually said that. - [info]angelsscream, 2008-03-28 12:38 am UTC
Re: XD - [info]witchsistah, 2008-03-27 08:49 pm UTC
Re: XD - [info]angelsscream, 2008-03-28 12:41 am UTC
Re: XD - [info]witchsistah, 2008-03-28 06:27 am UTC
Re: XD - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-03-29 06:00 pm UTC
Re: XD - [info]elusis, 2008-03-26 08:33 pm UTC
Re: XD - [info]delux_vivens, 2008-03-27 03:36 am UTC
Re: XD - [info]elusis, 2008-03-27 03:42 am UTC

[info]fire_fly
2008-03-27 12:43 am UTC (link)
Where does she call Whedon a rapist? If it's in the title, then I think that refers more to the pervasiveness of the tropes of rape culture in the Whedonverse.

The passage: "What does this say about women, Joss? What does this say about you? Do you tell your wife to shut up? Do you threaten to duct tape her mouth? Lock her in the bedroom? Is this funny to you, Joss? Because it sure as fuck ain’t funny to me." is a pretty standard feminist rhetorical technique. When men act as apologists for or enablers of violence against women, feminists often appeal to their sense of caring for the women in their lives to indicate the seriousness of violence against women. And I mean, I wouldn't stand for a 'joke' like "Sometimes you just wanna duct tape her mouth and dump her in the hold for a month" being made about me -- why is misogynistic humour normalised in the show?
"This could be your daughter, your wife, your mother or your sister" is pretty ordinary feminist fare when writing about men's trivialisation of violence against women. I don't see how that constitutes an accusation that Whedon has raped his wife. Looks like the hyperbole isn't just on [info]_allecto_'s side.

Where I part ways with [info]_allecto_ is where she demeans sex workers and women who do sex work: "The women who ‘choose’ to be ‘Companions’ are shown as being intelligent, accomplished, educated, well-respected and presumably from good families. If a woman had all of these qualities and opportunities then why the fuck would she ‘choose’ to be a man’s fuck toy? Would being a fuck toy for hundreds of men give a woman like Inara personal fulfillment? Job satisfaction? A sense of purpose? Fulfill her dreams? Ambitions?"
I get the point that the notion of a 'happy hooker' is both fetishised and stigmatised by patriarchy, so sex workers' own efforts at empowerment can be co-opted by patriarchal culture. And that Whedon may not be the best writer for such a role. But I don't extend that to actually insulting sex workers or belittling their agency and desires.

I agree that Mal is a big penis, using violence to make up for intelligence, insulting and disrespecting all the women around him, yet still acting like he owns the gorram 'verse. I've been a Whedon fan since I was 13 -- which is more than 10 years ago now -- but I still hate the shows with male leads. I don't like the patriarchal structure of Firefly, or the way that male power struggles are emphasised in the plots, and I'm disheartened at the dumbing-down of the female parts.

All in all, this was an easy mark for fandom. People who don't know the meaning of the term "rape culture" and are hostile to feminist arguments (which is most of fandom, frankly) are easily stirred at radical feminist arguments, which present themselves as oppositional and exaggerate contrasts to make their points. Fandom gets no points for the slew of predictable sexist and homophobic slurs directed at [info]_allecto_. It might be something if anyone had a nuanced engagement with these issues -- which are real, FFS -- but I don't see that anywhere.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]fire_fly
2008-03-27 12:55 am UTC (link)
Oh, I got to the comment where [info]_allecto_ accuses Joss Whedon of raping his wife... I have to agree that it trivialises marital rape/abuse and erases Kai Cole (OMG, Mrs. Whedon has a name! and it isn't Whedon!) completely.

OT, from the commentaries, interviews, etc. I find Tim Minear a whole lot more sexist than Whedon.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]bitter_moss, 2008-03-27 09:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2008-03-27 12:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fire_fly, 2008-03-28 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2008-03-31 12:23 pm UTC

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