deadbrowalking: thinking aloud.

sweet caramel and honey hair (

delux_vivens) wrote in

deadbrowalking,
@ 2007-06-03 12:44:00

Current music:

Liquid Mind - Slow World (long version)

thinking aloud.
I'm confabbing with karnythia and we are sharing war stories of dealing with people who have been deeply shocked to find us people of color in fandoms, reading sci-fi fantasy books (like Harry Potter), or attending fandom events and actor appearance conventions.

Apparently its sorta expected for us to be Trek fans (especially of DS9 and ST:TNG) and maybe Firefly fans, but watching Who from back when Baker was the Doctor, being able to recite chapter and verse of Highlander or the X-files, and reading any books ever are astonishing signs of the earth shifting its axis.

So I guess I'm wondering what exactly do people who are shocked to see poc reading and watching sci fi and fantasy actually think poc do in their spare time? Or do I want to know?

(Post a new comment)

yeloson
2007-06-03 07:56 pm UTC (link)

Apparently darker POC do drugs, basketball and breakdancing, while lighter POC meditate, do math and overwork. Both lighter and darker make way too many babies and steal precious jobs and welfare. And we're lazy while doing all of that too.

Amazing that people can regularly imagine worlds where we overcome national boundaries, human limitations, laws of physics, etc. but still can't imagine people of color as human beings.

I guess that's what aliens are for. :/

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	angelsscream 2007-06-03 08:10 pm UTC (link)
	Don't forget the killing of each other and playing the race card at every opportunity.... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sol_se 2007-06-03 08:18 pm UTC (link)
	Amazing that people can regularly imagine worlds where we overcome national boundaries, human limitations, laws of physics, etc. but still can't imagine people of color as human beings. Yes, exactly! This is what always baffles me about racism in sci-fi or fantasy. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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littlebutfierce, 2007-06-03 08:23 pm UTC

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delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 08:29 pm UTC

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sol_se, 2007-06-03 08:40 pm UTC

	oyceter 2007-06-03 09:33 pm UTC (link)
	Don't forget that the Asian ones are probably meditating and being More Spiritual Than Thou as well! Though the one place I haven't felt out of place being a POC fan is anime/manga, and that is probably only because I am Asian. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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delux_vivens, 2007-06-04 01:06 am UTC

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oyceter, 2007-06-04 04:19 pm UTC

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yeloson, 2007-06-04 01:38 am UTC

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oyceter, 2007-06-04 04:20 pm UTC

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yeloson, 2007-06-04 04:28 pm UTC

	angelsscream 2007-06-03 08:09 pm UTC (link)
	Opens mouth then closes it on second thought, maybe its better that you don't know what they're thinking.....less chance you'll need bail money for bashing their skulls in later..... (Reply to this)

	witchwillow 2007-06-03 08:10 pm UTC (link)
	Shuts her mouth and goes back to work on the Carnival (Reply to this)

sol_se
2007-06-03 08:15 pm UTC (link)

I think besides the usual racist stereotypes that

yeloson brings up, there's also the "Black people are all too cool" stereotype that leans in the opposite direction. (You know, the "they're all good at dancing & sports" notion.) PoC should be into "cooler" hobbies like sports or music, but not geeky nerdy things like sci-fi. I don't know why it would be a surprise to learn that there are sci-fi geeks that are PoC (since geeks come in all shades & sizes), but it seems to be a surprise to some people. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm not explaining my thoughts very well. The same with reading. Reading's not "cool" and PoC only do cool things.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	witchsistah 2007-06-03 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	That and sci-fi is seen as being too intellectual for PoC (especially Blacks and Latinos) to be interested in. It's just too brainy for us darkies to even understand much less fan. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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angelsscream, 2007-06-03 08:41 pm UTC

	witchsistah 2007-06-03 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	So I guess I'm wondering what exactly do people who are shocked to see poc reading and watching sci fi and fantasy actually think poc do in their spare time? Black folk? Drive-bys. Asian peeps? Math. Latinos? Sneaking over the Mexican/American border illegally and making us all speak Spanish. Native Americans? Running casinos. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	delux_vivens 2007-06-03 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	I'ma git in on that casino action when saskaia adopts me into her tribe! you heard it here first. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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witchsistah, 2007-06-03 08:33 pm UTC

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delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 08:35 pm UTC

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witchsistah, 2007-06-03 08:59 pm UTC

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delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 09:50 pm UTC

holzman
2007-06-03 08:37 pm UTC (link)

So far, everyone responded from the perspective of what white fen think people of color are doing in their spare time instead of being fannish. Coming out of my experience, I came at the question from a second perspective as well. White fen get a slew of strange reactions from white mundanes when they learn we're fannish.

Now I'm curious: Do mundane POC have similar reactions on learning you're fannish, or is only white fans that can't cope with fen of color?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	delux_vivens 2007-06-03 08:53 pm UTC (link)
	For some reason that i dont quite understand at all, really, even a little bit, people seem to feel entitled to give me lots of grief for my manflesh fanning, but not so much for the general scifi fan stuf. (Reply to this)(Parent)

From MY experience and this is only MY POV

witchsistah
2007-06-03 08:58 pm UTC (link)

No, everybody is surprised when they find out you're fannish and that includes being a Trek fan (especially if you're Black and female). I've had conversations with Blacks where I mentioned my fan-ism in Trek: TNG and gotten the "You're trying to be White" crap. And my fanaticism isn't even that deep, not compared to many fen of any color. I don't know the specs of the Enterprise D or E. I'm not trying to make costumes or replicas of phasers and tricorders. I just have this weird, Duran Duran girl crush on Data and Picard even though my ass is damn near 40. Sue me.

But I get similar Scooby Doo looks when I tell folks I'm a SCAdian and that my garb is better than my mundane wardrobe. I get major squee from finding a French hood online that I can gank (I've got three of them) or some replica of period jewelry particularly girdles. If I can ever find an affordable gabled hood it's mine! Finding period headgear for women is somewhat difficult.

However, after finding out those things about me and that I'm pagan, folks just think I'm weird. But I get the sense that it doesn't take much for me as a Black woman to be considered weird or strange because the parameters of "normal behavior" for me are so damn narrow. I think if I were White, it'd take a little bit more to get the "WTF" response.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

angelsscream, 2007-06-03 09:08 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 09:43 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

shewhohashope, 2007-06-03 09:16 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 10:49 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:11 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

shewhohashope, 2007-06-04 02:20 am UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-04 02:36 am UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

shewhohashope, 2007-06-04 02:57 am UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

holzman, 2007-06-03 10:35 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 10:49 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

yeloson, 2007-06-03 11:01 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:17 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 11:21 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

yeloson, 2007-06-03 11:26 pm UTC

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delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 11:31 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

yeloson, 2007-06-03 11:41 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

witchsistah, 2007-06-04 12:04 am UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

yeloson, 2007-06-04 01:17 am UTC

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witchsistah, 2007-06-04 01:41 am UTC

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witchwillow, 2007-06-04 10:24 pm UTC

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spiralsheep, 2007-06-04 10:26 pm UTC

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witchwillow, 2007-06-04 10:40 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:33 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

holzman, 2007-06-03 11:39 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

chr0me_kitten, 2007-06-04 03:13 am UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

holzman, 2007-06-03 11:21 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:35 pm UTC

Re: From MY experience and this is only MY POV -

holzman, 2007-06-04 05:31 am UTC

	vito_excalibur 2007-06-04 12:09 am UTC (link)
	By and large, they possibly think it's even weirder. There is also a sense that F/SF is a white perversion. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Deleted post)

	madam_silvertip 2007-06-03 08:57 pm UTC (link)
	That's how it was for me--I didn't know there was a large fandom of color until recently, and my feeling was always, Why should POC follow sff when it's so white? Of course that is changing. But for me it was a real white-guilt-about-sff thing. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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madam_silvertip, 2007-06-03 08:58 pm UTC

	cavlec 2007-06-03 08:55 pm UTC (link)
	<weak> Maybe it's a subconscious acknowledgement that sf/f hasn't done nearly enough to attract PoC as fans, and has done much too much to repel them? </weak> (Reply to this)

	starfishncoffee 2007-06-03 09:36 pm UTC (link)
	I guess we're too busy reading street novels, listening to hip hop and eating watermelon. It's just stupid. There's no rational explanation. Just typical white foolishness. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	starfishncoffee 2007-06-03 09:38 pm UTC (link)
	I mean black people specifically. All other POC are too busy doing what they're supposedly doing. (Reply to this)(Parent)

spiralsheep
2007-06-03 10:30 pm UTC (link)

IME it tends to be assumed that everyone in Britain has watched Doctor Who. ::shrugs::

British skiffy has often been ahead of the rest of British telly in the depiction of non-white people and afaik it's assumed the audience has responded to that. I don't think Red Dwarf would have existed with that cast if people thought only white Britons watched skiffy. ::more shrugging::

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witchsistah, 2007-06-03 10:39 pm UTC

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spiralsheep, 2007-06-03 10:46 pm UTC

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witchsistah, 2007-06-03 10:50 pm UTC

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spiralsheep, 2007-06-04 12:09 am UTC

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vito_excalibur, 2007-06-04 12:10 am UTC

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witchsistah, 2007-06-04 12:32 am UTC

	coniraya 2007-06-03 10:48 pm UTC (link)
	what exactly do people who are shocked to see poc reading and watching sci fi and fantasy actually think poc do in their spare time? Forming evil cabals to take over the world! Oh and killing whitey! (Reply to this)(Thread)

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witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:18 pm UTC

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delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 11:22 pm UTC

Innocent -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:26 pm UTC

Re: Innocent -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-03 11:32 pm UTC

Re: Innocent -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:36 pm UTC

Forgot something -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:39 pm UTC

Re: Forgot something -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-04 01:01 am UTC

The people white fen don't see...

chr0me_kitten
2007-06-03 11:42 pm UTC (link)

When white folks are surprised to see us, I'm just like whatevs. They're *always* surprised to see us anywhere they've staked out as theirs.

This whole thing is driving me nuts. I could write a book about this. I need to go ahead and write my essay on race and spaces. Just because they don't see us at cons, doesn't mean we don't exist. And I would argue that it's not that odd a reaction for people of color who don't attend cons and the like to think they're for white people when white people code those spaces as for white people. There's a lot more than what's on the surface going on with the whole "acting white" bit from other POC (and I've been a fan my whole life--raised on the stuff by two Black parents. As I *love* to point out, the only people who've ever accused me of acting white have been white people, and that's been more about them not being able to get their heads around me not fitting into their stereotypes than any of my behavior. That's their fucking problem, not mine.) One day, I'll get this all written.

And finally, as I also often point out: for all people who think black folks in particular are not into SF, we invented a dance called "The Matrix". C'mon!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: The people white fen don't see... -

witchsistah, 2007-06-03 11:44 pm UTC

Re: The people white fen don't see... -

seaya, 2007-06-04 12:37 am UTC

Re: The people white fen don't see... -

holzman, 2007-06-04 05:35 am UTC

Re: The people white fen don't see... -

seaya, 2007-06-04 12:41 am UTC

Come on sweetie. -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-04 01:09 am UTC

also. -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-04 10:09 pm UTC

Re: also. -

raz0rgirl, 2007-06-05 02:26 am UTC

Re: also. -

delux_vivens, 2007-06-05 07:02 am UTC

	karnythia 2007-06-04 01:15 am UTC (link)
	I already told you, we're too busy making welfare babies to watch TV. ALso, we can't afford cable. No seriously, this is just racism at work again. We are so other that we can't possibly enjoy fantasy/sci-fi. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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witchsistah, 2007-06-04 02:49 am UTC

kelleah
2007-06-04 06:14 am UTC (link)

Hmmm. A sci-fi buddy of mine used to have regular sci-fi/fantasy weekend get-togethers where 9 out of 10 guests were POC or biracial. We would watch a couple seasons of different TV shows determined by majority vote - Farscape, SG1, Firefly, etc. She introduced me to her older brother once, and he said he was surprised to see so many POC into genre, esp. WOC. He's not a genre fan, so I guess he also saw it as a whites-only hobby.

I was raised in a genre-loving household. My folks watch far more genre shows than I do, but I tend to be more fanatical with my squee. I'm also more selective. Fewer fandoms + intense devotion vs. Many fandoms + casual devotion. My folks check out pretty much everything genre, and rarely do they find something that neither of them likes. I know they both hated that TV show Lexx. I know my mom didn't like Mutant X, but my stepfather did. She was the Charmed fan, but him, not so much. They still watch Smallville together every Thursday like a weekly dinner date. They used to stay in and pop popcorn for the Sci-Fi channel's Sci-Fi Fridays.

My stepfather has been a Marvel fan for years. He stopped collecting when my mother told him that he either had to sell some to make room for more or quit buying them. My mother was a die-hard X-phile. I'm the only one who goes to conventions though. That's just not their thing. But when I went to DragonCon in '02, I took pics of everybody I could because even though I might not watch the show, I figured they did and would know who the actor was. Guess what? I was right. When I told my mom that I talked to Apophis off and on for 2 hours, and gave him a big kiss on the cheek when I finally left, she got mad. She's the big Stargate fan. Not me. :-P

As for me, I'm not a cliquish person, but if I ran with any clique in school, it would have been the nerds. So I don't know why anyone would be surprised by my geekdom. Most white "normies" peg me as an oddball anyway because I don't behave in the manner of someone who desperately wants a lot of friends, but I don't think they ever see the sci-fi geek label until I actually mention it point blank. Then, it's like a lightbulb goes off in their heads, and suddenly they "get me." Yeah . . . sure, you do.

(Reply to this)

	bibliofile 2007-06-04 08:01 am UTC (link)
	So I guess I'm wondering what exactly do people who are shocked to see poc reading and watching sci fi and fantasy actually think poc do in their spare time? Or do I want to know? My guess would be that most of them simply don't think about it, period. I mean, why would (or should) they? (Reply to this)

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