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Dark Christianity - Cho, Warren admit to plagiarism
Exploring and Exposing Dominionist Christianity
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Cho, Warren admit to plagiarism
I knew there were big differences between megachurch pastors and mainline liberal pastors. Megachurch pastors live in McMasnions and spend their weeks lobbying legislators to pass bans on gay marriage. Mainline pastors spend their days visiting the sick, marrying couples, and burying the dead. But I allways thought that both kinds of pastor had one thing in common; writing and preaching sermons. Turns out I was wrong.


The link goes to a dominionist site. The article shouldn't trigger anyone, but survivors of religious abuse shouldn't click any of the links. If this post is OT I'll delete it, but it covers unethical behavior by two major dominionists.

ETA: Corrected misspelled words.
Comments
thegrungediva From: [info]thegrungediva Date: May 21st, 2006 08:17 pm (UTC) (Link)
Holy Plagiarism, Batman!

If a pastor says, "This is what so-and-so preached on such-and-such a day..." it wouldn't bother me. But to preach those words as if they were their own?!?!?!? I guess stealing words doesn't count as stealing?
juliarandolph From: [info]juliarandolph Date: May 21st, 2006 09:06 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think it's in some employment contracts that preachers sign with their churches that they will write a sermon every week. If that's in the contract, then they either need to renegotiate the contract, or get put out on their ass. IMO.

If they'd give credit somehow, it wouldn't bother me as much, but if they're not, that's just wrong.
lihan161051 From: [info]lihan161051 Date: May 23rd, 2006 06:53 pm (UTC) (Link)
One of the nice things about being a Unitarian .. our ministers tend to be a *lot* more up front about this sort of thing, and while they might cite (numerous) sources to support their sermons, they don't ever pass off other people's work as their own to my knowledge. Very few other churches have the unique experience of finding footnotes in the sermon text, even fewer have the further experience of having each of those footnotes lead to a whole new tangential exploration of its own.

And yes, in Austin we're spoiled .. ;-)

But it's absolutely right that passing off someone else's work as one's own is plagiarism, and I find it very intriguing that the dominionists don't seem to have any burning ethical problems with it as such. I find it even more intriguing that the ones who *can* write well (or some of them, at least) practically *invite* plagiarism. I guess it's my upbringing, but it just seems weird to me that people who are theoretically as morally upright as these people claim to be don't have a problem with dishonest use of intellectual property.

This also isn't the first example of plagiarism I've seen from the doms .. they're notorious for not respecting trademark registration and often use even highly recognizable corporate trademarks and taglines as a basis for their graphic artwork. Sometimes this is only a questionable twisting of the "satire or spoof" aspect of fair use, sometimes it's stuff that makes me wonder why cease and desist letters aren't already flying, even worse than college fraternity/sorority rush T-shirt designs. Likewise, I've always wondered why this doesn't seem to bother people whom I would think would be horribly offended at the very idea of stealing intellectual property. Not that we're dealing with what I'd call intellectuals, but still, it's a surprising ethical shortcoming ..
the_methotaku From: [info]the_methotaku Date: May 24th, 2006 07:24 pm (UTC) (Link)
Catholics seem to frequently qoute from, and properly cite eachother's works in sermons and homilys.

Personally, I don't like it at all. To me a sermon is supposed to be about your own feelings about a text. Citing sources takes you out of the worship and into an intillectual space beter suited to Sunday School.
paperandglue From: [info]paperandglue Date: May 21st, 2006 09:15 pm (UTC) (Link)
If the evangelical Christian church does not want to observe the intellectual property mores to which other rhetorical communities subscribe (or pretend to subscribe), that's fine. I can understand that the evangelical perspective is that it's "All for the Kingdom" so how could a pastor say, "Hey! That's my sermon, don't use it!"

But this is what got me:

Let's forget about originality – which is often a form of pride. Let's begin to focus on effectiveness, and pray that we will be powerful at connecting with not-yet believers.


How much to you want to bet that, when an audience member shakes the hand of these "plagiarizing" speakers and says, "Wow, great message, Pastor!" the speaker in question does not say "Actually, it was written by Billy Graham for such and such Crusade in 1968."

Doing so might be a good idea if he trying to rein in his "pride."

lihan161051 From: [info]lihan161051 Date: May 23rd, 2006 06:59 pm (UTC) (Link)
How much to you want to bet that, when an audience member shakes the hand of these "plagiarizing" speakers and says, "Wow, great message, Pastor!" the speaker in question does not say "Actually, it was written by Billy Graham for such and such Crusade in 1968."

Doing so might be a good idea if he trying to rein in his "pride."


And therein lies the rub, so to speak. I can see "all for the Kingdom" as a philosophical appeal to the greater "good", in their eyes, and on that basis, it still gives me a headache but I can kind of see how that might be all right to them. But you're right, very few ministers will out and out admit that the sermon they used wasn't their own work, and that's where it becomes what anyone who claims to be a moral and ethical example, ESPECIALLY A DOMINIONIST, should question as a prideful action of self-glorification. At that point, it ceases to be about the "Kingdom" and becomes strictly a matter of "increasing one's own prestige", which if these people really were about what they claim to be, should get him booted posthaste.

It's an ethical fine point, granted, but to me it's a crucial one ..
ellid From: [info]ellid Date: May 21st, 2006 09:54 pm (UTC) (Link)
As far as I know, my minister writes her own sermons every week. That's why we pay her. We don't pay her to recite warmed-over wisdom from James Luther Adams or Carl Scovel.
cassidix From: [info]cassidix Date: May 22nd, 2006 05:17 am (UTC) (Link)
My dad's an Episcopal priest, and he has always written his own sermons...and he didn't spend 25 - 30 hours on 'em, either. His messages were always insightful and thought-provoking, many times leavened with a bit of humor. He didn't do "Hellfire and Brimstone", and he reached a lot of questioning people with his genuine caring and the sincere clarity of his belief. When we (his children) questioned the nature of our own beliefs, he let us take our journeys to wherever they led us (one is agnostic, one is Pagan and two are Christian), with his love and support. He has always been my example of "How a Priest/Pastor" Should Be".

Heh. So much for having to give a regurgitated message to be able to "reach" others...
the_methotaku From: [info]the_methotaku Date: May 22nd, 2006 02:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm not a pastor yet; I have to finish summer school before I can even get to seminary, but when I've preached, I've done about 5-10 hours prep. I'm origional, just fast, and I have a lot of other things to do.
dogemperor From: [info]dogemperor Date: May 24th, 2006 05:32 pm (UTC) (Link)

Oh, I find this interesting INDEED.

This is extremely interesting for me for several reasons:

a) At least one of the parties mentioned (David Yonggi Cho nee Paul Yonggi Cho) is singlehandedly responsible for the spread of some of the worst flavours of spiritual abuse within the Assemblies of God (including the entire "Brownsville" nee "Third Wave" movement and associated "spiritual warfare" movements, which actually started at Yoido Full Gospel Church some fifty years ago; the church also promoted an early form of "shepherding" or "cell church" setup); at least one group actively investigating spiritual abuse has noted the origins come from a remarkably similar twisting of both Christianity and Haneolism (traditional Korean shamanism) as occurs in the Moonies, and another source has noted similarities to Soka Gakkai (a "Buddhism-based" group often noted as highly coercive and promoting a Buddhist version of "name it and claim it"). Many groups consider Cho's church, and in fact the entire "Third Wave" movement, as a de facto "Bible based cult" (and, being a survivor, I am inclined to agree); even the Wikipedia entry on Cho's church notes this.

b) I am in particular a survivor of one of the first churches in the United States where Cho's crap was actively promoted (in fact, this article speaks about how some of Cho's "prophecies" which were the original basis of the Brownsville Idiocy were actively promoted at the very church that I am an escapee of fully thirty years before the "Third Wave" hit Brownsville), and this article also mentions that the very church I escaped was the first "target" of the Third Wave Idiocy by Cho.

c) Cho is heavily promoted by dominionist pente groups, in particular groups heavy into "spiritual warfare" theology; one group in particular that Cho has close links with is the Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International (an Assemblies front-group with a long history of promoting dominionism and deliberate interference in the affairs of democratic nations for fifty years running). Cho has been promoted, among others, by the extremely abusive Assemblies frontgroup Youth With A Mission (almost universally considered a coercive religious group by cult experts).

d) Cho himself has very heavy influence in dominionist groups himself, including groups directly linked to infiltration of and hijacking of churches (the Assemblies "spiritual warfare" movement pioneered by Cho and others invented the strategies now used by the Institute for Religion and Democracy in hijack of churches). Not surprisingly, some of his heaviest influence is in the Assemblies of God itself. At least one article has noted associations with Cho and multiple dominionist leaders, including members of the Coalition for National Policy and the coercive religious group Maranatha (now operating under the name Every Nation, and almost universally recognised as cultic; the group also originated a great deal of the tactics used by modern "spiritual warfare" groups). Yoido Full Gospel Church is also recognised as a major promoter himself of dominionism, per an article from the now-defunct Freedom Writer dating from 1995.
the_methotaku From: [info]the_methotaku Date: May 24th, 2006 06:58 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Oh, I find this interesting INDEED.

I suppose that when you spend all your time plotting you don't have time to write your own sermons.
dogemperor From: [info]dogemperor Date: May 24th, 2006 07:10 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Oh, I find this interesting INDEED.

*LOL!*

Thank you, I needed that, seriously :3
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