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Dark Christianity -
Exploring and Exposing Dominionist Christianity
gloucester
[info]dark_christian
[info]gloucester
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 So I would like to ask a serious philosophical question if I may.  First, I'm going to take it as a given that everyone in this community is generally against dominionism, and that we are generally in a struggle or state of conflict to keep dominionists from curtailing our freedoms.  Obviously, as with any conflict, it can escalate or de-escalate depending on the actions of either side or both sides.  Speech is met with speech, campaigns with campaigns, ads with ads, petitions with petitions, etc.  Responses can vary, but my point mainly is that, for example, speech is not met with anything so escalated as violent revolt.

I would also posit that the optimal outcome is to make agreement, or alignment, so that all parties are happy, all parties' needs are met, and so on, rather than to "win" in a zero sum game where someone has to lose.  Obviously, that ideal is not always achievable, because sometimes two things can happen:  A) one side, for whatever reasons, be it needs they don't want to put on the table to have met, or needs they don't even know about or won't acknowledge, refuses to accept that such a win-win agreement can be reached, and so insists that the differences are irreducible, ultimate, and/or irreconcilable, or B) some needs really will just conflict, like a 7-10 split in bowling, and a hard choice has to be made.

I think an argument can be made that dominionists really are of the former stripe, but convince their rank-and-file components that they are of the latter.  As a result, I really do think that some traction can be gained trying to dislodge the rank and file from the "voices" of dominionism so that, at least with them, a win-win agreement can be reached.  However, I don't think the same is true of the voices (I hesitate to say "leaders," because it's not exactly that kind of dynamic).  Moreover, I think the voices can convince some or a lot of their rank and file not to give in to agreement, and to stick with the conflict.

Once all the negotiation, talk, and agreement has run its course and there is no one left but those with whom there is no agreement to be reached, the only thing to do is to treat it as a conflict and win it as swiftly, efficiently, decisively, and humanely as possible.  That prospect is no small one, because once you commit to that, you commit to actions that may do lasting harm.  At that point, you accept that "this town ain't big enough" for two conflicting sets of needs, and, as the Eagles put it, "Somebody's going to emergency, and somebody's going to jail." 

So my question is:  At what point do you feel that agreement has yielded all the fruit it ever will, and it is time to reach, draw, cut to kill, and move on?  What are the signs of that?  Who qualifies for that reaction and how?  What if we come to that point?  Why would you assess it has come to that point?  What lines would you cross or not cross?

As another matter, reasonable people would prefer not to force the above scenario, but there are clearly people who, for whatever reason, are unable to resolve conflict without it.  I would posit that, for example, there are dominionists who only pay lip service to the concept that their god wants a peaceful resolution, but believe in their heart that God's victory is not a victory without the grand conflict of armageddon, wherein a lot of people will suffer.

So how do you know when you're dealing with someone who can be reasoned with, vs. someone who needs the conflict?  What do you do about it?  how do you deal with them?  What if you can't?  Why would someone take that attitude? 

EDIT:  I didn't intend "violence" to be a major player in the discussion, though I do see how it can apply.  I think I made a mistake in using "violence" metaphors to illustrate my model of conflict resolution, but what I meant more than physical violence is "confrontation," a conflict that, while not necessarily violent, does involve victory at the expense of defeat.
Comments
lihan161051 From: [info]lihan161051 Date: May 13th, 2008 02:43 pm (UTC) (Link)
My benchmark for this is whether the person respects your freedom to think for yourself and make your own decisions as to what to believe. As long as they approach subjects of Christian doctrine with the understanding that the discussion is within the framework of Christianity, and acknowledges the fact that other valid frameworks of belief exist, debate can not only be feasible but even rewarding and instructive.

The red flag is when you're dealing with someone who cannot or will not accept that belief systems other than their own are valid, and who will not accept anything from you other than obedience to their spiritual authority. That's a fundamental shift in focus that correlates very well with arguments that will only continue to devolve further into shouting matches and demands for you to renounce what you believe.

And you won't always encounter that shift right away. Dominionists who do get into the habit of trying to convert by persuasion learn fairly early on to pretend to be far more tolerant than they actually are, to engage people in what seems like an above-board philosophical debate, and only switch to the hard-sell conversion tactics after they feel they have their hooks in deep enough, but there's a certain inflexibility about them that is a very good early warning sign that debating with them will not lead anywhere useful, and often if you're clear about making the distinction between "absolute within the framework of *Christian* doctrine" and "absolute in a literal sense and applicable to every person on earth", that will force the hardline dominionists into more overt assertions that they're really talking about the latter.

The ones no amount of debate will ever reach are the ones who are honestly unable to even understand the notion that you have as much right to your own freedom of religion as they do to theirs, and who see nothing at all wrong with the notion that their belief system is the only option and anything other than what they believe is simply "wrong". The conflict that that naturally leads to doesn't necessarily need to be a physically violent one, but it does need to take into account the fact that you will never convince them, and if they see open defiance from you, their response to *you* is likely to be persistent and possibly violent. Avoiding being a high-profile target is better in the long term than meeting them forcefully in a direct frontal engagement. (Sometimes I think that's just delaying the inevitable, but even then, I'd rather stay alive and uncompromised as long as a forceful resistance to them can be avoided..)
vanmojo From: [info]vanmojo Date: May 13th, 2008 03:08 pm (UTC) (Link)
"Dominionists who do get into the habit of trying to convert by persuasion learn fairly early on..."

There is another subset of Dominionists that I feel are the bigger threat, though. These are the ones who are buying into a neo-predestination doctrine being taught in some modern American Protestant denominations.

Which is to say, there is no salvation through acceptance of Christ. If you accept Christ, it's because you are "pre-ordained." You were either born in grace, or you suck.

The obvious ad-absurdum example of this is Fred Phelps and his little traveling train wreck from Westboro Baptist in Topeka, KS. Be sure to read their page on pre-destination.

However, he is but a reflection of a growing, albeit tacit and somewhat subdued current running through some dominionist thought; the idea that we are *not* saved, and therefore, we can be dehumanized, and we are -- in a very real sense -- an enemy to be defeated.

Their public protestations are not so much about conversion as it is just running smack against the other team.

They not only don't believe that we are not saved, they don't want us to be saved because it would mean that their ideas of predestination are wrong, and therefore a large underpinning of their epistemology would come crashing down around them.

mojo sends
lihan161051 From: [info]lihan161051 Date: May 13th, 2008 03:57 pm (UTC) (Link)
Things like that make me wonder exactly where the boundary is between religious movement and cult, and exactly when they crossed it ..
alobar From: [info]alobar Date: May 13th, 2008 11:50 pm (UTC) (Link)
In my not so humble opinion, trying to reach common ground with dominionists would be like looking for common ground with the KKK, Nazis, or any other such group. Dominionists do their own schooling of young and refuse to let kids explore or reach their own conclusions. Dominionists want everyone to become like them or be killed. They want creationis taught as science in public schools. They want to rewrite US history to make the US into a Christian nation with no freedom of religion for any who refuse to believe exactly like they do. When they say they want Christmas celebrated in schools and prayer in schools, they do NOT want other religions to have the same rights. And they breed like flies, coerce wives and daughters to keep popping out the puppies so they will soon outnumber the rest of us.
lihan161051 From: [info]lihan161051 Date: May 14th, 2008 04:32 am (UTC) (Link)
Exactly, and the defining characteristic, the 'red flag" differentiating dominionism (and other forms of more general fundamentalism) from healthier elements of modern culture is that eliminationist impulse: they "want everyone to become like them or be killed". And sooner or later, when you're in a confrontation of any sort with a dominionist, it will come down to that when the gloves come off .. a demand that you believe what they do "or else". Resist them long enough, and any persuasive arguments they may start will will inevitably devolve into that. *That* is where you *know*, positively, that there's no benefit to following the conversation further, if it hasn't become apparent before then ..
(no subject) - [info]alobar Expand
gloucester From: [info]gloucester Date: May 14th, 2008 12:27 pm (UTC) (Link)
So you don't think there's any merit to Dogemperor's discussion below of the difference between functional dominionists and theological dominionists?
(no subject) - [info]alobar Expand
(no subject) - [info]gloucester Expand
(no subject) - [info]alobar Expand
mycroftxxx From: [info]mycroftxxx Date: May 13th, 2008 03:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
I am not sure that there is any winning of this conflict to be had. I have worked from the prospective that we are resisting some pretty natural human reactions to a complex world, as abhorrent as they are. For me, Domionism is a symptom to be reduced, rather than a cause itself.

That being said, I tend to consider the extreme solutions to breaking up the leadership of the dominionist church system quicker than most. While I am not yet sure of a tenable solution to dealing with the fear of a changing world and search for certainty that drives the rank-and-file, making the leaders too scared for their own safety and freedom to encourage suppression of dissent is a tactic with a long and worthy history. Even if it's a tactic usually employed by "the other side", it's effectiveness is fairly well proven at this point.
gloucester From: [info]gloucester Date: May 13th, 2008 03:20 pm (UTC) (Link)
"I am not sure that there is any winning of this conflict to be had. I have worked from the prospective that we are resisting some pretty natural human reactions to a complex world, as abhorrent as they are. For me, Domionism is a symptom to be reduced, rather than a cause itself."

How would you say that affects your approach to the conflict? What do you do differently as a result of this outlook?

"making the leaders too scared for their own safety and freedom to encourage suppression of dissent is a tactic with a long and worthy history."

As you can imagine, phrasing like that carries a lot of potential emotional baggage with some people, and so I am not certain what level of my own presuppositions to bring to the discussion. Could you clarify your intent with that statement? What actions are you advocating, or suggesting may be necessary? What outcome are you hoping for? What eliminated other options you probably find less unsavory?

lihan161051 From: [info]lihan161051 Date: May 13th, 2008 03:30 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think the dominionist movement is going to take a long time to fully defeat, if it can be done at all. And their defeat will have to come in a form so completely alien to their battle-mentality that they won't recognize it for what it is until it's already happened.

A big part of that defeat is going to have to involve neutralizing the leadership, but another part of it might well involve *replacing* that leadership with one that can lead the followers back to the mainstream at a pace they can tolerate without cognitive dissonance kicking in and creating an even more militant movement even farther underground.