callmenontoxic ([info]callmenontoxic) wrote in [info]damnportlanders,
@ 2009-07-08 13:46:00
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Entry tags:advice: legal, housing, housing: landlord issue

Illegal rental fees?
My landlord is trying to charge me $660 for breaking a lease, because I did not give him 60 day notice. I understood when I signed my original six month lease that 60 day notice must be given, however, I had no idea I would have to be moving out due to financial reasons until just a few weeks ago. I gave him 30 day notice.
Now they are saying that since I did not give 60 day notice, the lease "rolled over" into a NEW six month lease (my original lease is up July 31st, the day I am moving out). I NEVER signed a new lease. Is this even legal? How can they charge me a lease break fee for a lease I never signed? I really don't have $660 to throw around...

EDIT: I called the renters rights hotline and just got the "full mailbox" recording.
Also, apparently if I find someone to move in and take over my magical non existant lease, they will "reduce" the fee. So if anyone is interested, here is the craigslist ad they have posted
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/apa/1259861881.html
it's an amazing place, and ONLY $400 a month! I just have to move out for work and school related reasons.


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[info]guspasho
2009-07-08 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Do you have your old lease? Does it say anything about rolling over to a new lease?

Sounds like a massive scam, even if it says so on the old paperwork. You have to give 2 months notice otherwise you're stuck living there another 6 months? That's bullshit dude.

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[info]callmenontoxic
2009-07-08 09:19 pm UTC (link)
I just called and asked her for a copy of my old lease, and she got all snippy with me and was like "IT'S IN THE LEASE!" and I said "I would like to re read it for myself and I don't have a copy (carelessness on my part)" and she said "Well I don't have a copy" so I told her she better produce one for me because I'm not going down without a fight. This is total bullshit.
I'm not sure how I'm going to find someone quicker than them, the rent for this place is ridiculously low. If everyone flags that Craigslist ad then maybe I can win over these scam artists.

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[info]supresmooth
2009-07-08 09:45 pm UTC (link)
Well, if she doesn't have a copy of the lease, then they can't prove anything was "in the lease," so you really have nothing to worry about.

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[info]prettymuchjulia
2009-07-08 09:55 pm UTC (link)
yup, this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]bizket
2009-07-09 12:58 am UTC (link)
If she doesn't have a copy of the lease, then there really isn't shit she can do about it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]supresmooth
2009-07-08 09:47 pm UTC (link)
As far as my understanding goes, the 60-day rule would only apply during the lease and leases can only be renewed by signature. When you lease expires, it should become a month-to-month agreement until you sign a new one, much like a cell phone contract. Since your lease is up in 30 days anyway, I really don't think they have room to say. And 30-days-notice is all the law requires of you, and since they can't produce a copy of the lease, they can kind of eat it. I wouldn't get angry with them, but make it clear to them that while you understand they are facing hard times as well, it isn't okay to try to bully or scam you. Make it apparent that you see through their scam and aren't giving in, but don't make it personal even if they do. It will confuse them into being scared.

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[info]untied
2009-07-08 09:52 pm UTC (link)
if your lease expires in thirty days, you can pay your last months rent and then split.

you are not required to give notice in order to stay out of a new lease.

does that make sense?


basically, they can't charge you for breaking the lease if you pay your rent like normal, then move before signing the new one. in fact, they are required to give you thirty day notice of their intent to renew. if they haven't done that they're the ones who fucked up and you can probably push a little more from your end.

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[info]prettymuchjulia
2009-07-08 09:56 pm UTC (link)
Yes, if your lease ends in 30 days, you are out in 30 days. the 60 day thing would apply if you broke your lease, but if your lease is already up at that time, there is no breaking to be done, as the lease contract is completed.

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[info]prettymuchjulia
2009-07-08 09:56 pm UTC (link)
and excuse the over usage of commas. There is no excuse for that excess :)

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[info]callmenontoxic
2009-07-08 09:59 pm UTC (link)
The thing is, the landlord does have a copy of the lease, it is the landlords assistant I am dealing with. She was just pissed because she has to track down this lease, wherever it may be, and make a copy for me.

I think my problem lies in that I signed a document stating I would pay a fee equal to one and a half month's rent if I failed to give 60 day notice. I'm almost sure this is what the document said but I am getting a copy just in case. If this is true, and they are just calling it a lease break fee for convenience sake, am I really screwed?

Most importantly, I NEVER gave written notice of intent to vacate. Is it too late to call and retract, and then find a new tenant to take over? I called and told them on June 30th. Had I known they would reduce or eliminate the fee if I found someone to take over, I would have never given notice!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]callmenontoxic
2009-07-08 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Also, they are showing the apartment tomorrow, when I am not going to be home! I signed a document stating they would be allowed to show the apartment should I give notice, but they did not even give me 24 hour notice that they were going to be showing it. I have to keep them from finding someone to rent before I do.

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[info]supresmooth
2009-07-08 10:21 pm UTC (link)
You don't need to find anyone to rent it and they are legally required to give you 24-hours notice.

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[info]supresmooth
2009-07-08 10:19 pm UTC (link)
But as the other commenter said, you don't need to give notice to break the lease when the lease is simply ending, not being broken. You're not breaking anything and they didn't tell you they wanted to renew the lease and no one has exchanged lease papers for signing, so the penalty is invalid. It doesn't matter anyway because the 60-day notice thingy is part of a lease that expires in less than 30 days. So when the lease is expired, so is the penalty and you can just bounce.

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[info]_heynow
2009-07-08 11:53 pm UTC (link)
exactly. don't go out of your way to try to find someone to rent it, tell them they can't show it without 24-hrs notice (if they try to, this is seriously getting sketchy and i would call the police...) and tell them the lease is up in 30 days. you never signed a new one so there IS no new 6-month lease, and when your lease is over, you'll be out. you aren't required to give notice for that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]callmenontoxic
2009-07-09 12:31 am UTC (link)
So I would be legally right if I told them that a lease cannot "roll over" the way they are saying?
They are going to take my entire security deposit of $500 and apply it towards this ridiculous fee, what would be the best way of getting this money from them? I know they have to provide an itemized receipt within 30 days of what the security deposit went towards, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. I can write a bunch of angry letters, but they will still have my $500.

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[info]_heynow
2009-07-09 12:36 am UTC (link)
you'll probably have to take them to court.

either that, or threaten to take them to court and maybe that will be enough.

and yes, you are legally right to tell them a lease cannot "roll over". that's pure bs, and they probably know it, too. the whole thing sounds sketchy.

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[info]bizket
2009-07-09 01:02 am UTC (link)
It would be small claims court so if they try to threaten you with legal fees they are full of crap.

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[info]_heynow
2009-07-09 04:48 am UTC (link)
i meant he should threaten them :P that was enough for me to get my old landlord to give me the rest of my deposit back once...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]bizket
2009-07-09 01:01 am UTC (link)
When you do your cleaning of the place photograph ***EVERYTHING***. When they refuse to return your deposit they have to prove that you messed stuff up.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]supresmooth
2009-07-09 11:28 am UTC (link)
Ensure that your apartment is flawless when you leave. Take dated, photographic and/or video evidence of said flawlessness. Have a walk through with the manager to verify flawlessness and sign off on it before the end of your lease to ensure that nothing needs to be cleaned or fixed before you leave (getting them to do that is not likely, since they seem to be sketchy folk, so find whomever works for them that is easiest to get on your side).

Document absolutely everything, including all of these conversations you're having by writing out exactly everything each party said and when the occurred. Include phone calls.

Maintain copies of any and all documents. You will have to sue in small claims to get your money back, but the more paperwork you have on your side, the better.

Also, and this is extremely important if neither of you produce a copy of the lease: you should send a certified letter with return receipt to their office citing the telephone conversation you had where you told them, include with whom you spoke and exactly when, that you would be vacating and the end of your lease and this letter is to acknowledge that fact in writing. This will cover your ass if they try to say you never gave notice in writing. You didn't, but this will help prove that you did give some notice and effectively becomes some form of writing.

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[info]kue
2009-07-09 12:57 am UTC (link)
Please just don't assume that you get to leave the day the lease expires. You really need a copy of your lease!!! At least at my current residence, not-renewing the lease without notice to vacate will roll you into a month-to-month as a $50 higher rate. If this is the case, you would possibly owe an additional month of rent (but you would have use of the apartment).

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[info]supresmooth
2009-07-09 11:30 am UTC (link)
But he/she did give notice to vacate (within the legally required time frame to boot), so it should not be an issue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]kue
2009-07-10 01:30 am UTC (link)
We don't know the legally required time frame, the OP does not have a copy of the lease handy, and the landlord is being lazy/fishy/unethical/douche-ey/any combination of the prior.

Its fairly common for places to include 60 days to term, I'm just pointing out that there are some places (ex: mine) that require 60 days notice to simply let a lease expire, otherwise it will float into a month-to-month.

Only the lease has the true answer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]supresmooth
2009-07-10 07:52 am UTC (link)
In the absence of a lease, 30-days' notice is required.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]oregonmeg
2009-07-09 04:36 am UTC (link)
I was just signing a lease for a new place the other day, and the landlord had said to me that once the lease is up, the law states that it should automatically roll into a MONTH-to MONTH rental agreement unless I state that I either want to move out (which was agreed would be done with 30 day notice) or sign a new lease.
I really don't think they can roll you into a new lease greater than a month...
Good luck!

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