damnportlanders: The Poor Have No Dignity

nabeyaki_udon (

nabeyaki_udon) wrote in

damnportlanders,
@ 2008-07-12 23:38:00

The Poor Have No Dignity

I watched a lot of cable today. Two shows stuck out.

One was about Tony Snow. Ben Stein lamented of what a great man he was. While Tony Snow was dying of cancer (Ben Stein was saying) he worked as hard as he could to make as much money as possible to leave behind for his family. He is survived by his wife and children.

Another show I watched was about a mother who was addicted to meth. Her sons were also addicted to meth. They all lived together, and she admitted she'd shoplift to get her brood money for drugs and necessities. They did meth together, and that's about all they did. It showed their house, and it was filthy gross. They seemed willing and indifferent about the camera crews.

The Tony Snow story struck me as this was a very noble and moral man, as he could have slowed down and partied if he'd wanted to. He could have spent all his money on hookers and cocaine before he died. But of course he didn't. Mr. Snow was the White House Press Secretary. His father was an assistant principle, and his mother was a nurse. I'd call that as middle, slightly upper class.

The drug addict mom and her sons, I do not know their background. But I thought to myself, they could have at least got even minimum wage jobs, and found healthier things to do with their spare time.

Here's my question:

WHAT IS IT ABOUT POVERTY IN THE USA THAT MAKES PEOPLE GIVE UP AND NOT EVEN TRY?

(Mexicans are willing to cross the desert and take below minimum wage jobs here)

(The meth mom and her family were Caucasian and native USA)
EDIT:

I did totally screw up, and shouldn't have lumped poverty so closely to drug addiction. Poverty is not a crime or anything to be ashamed of. I think some people assumed I'm well off. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment and drive a 16 year old car.
Ultimately when I was thinking about this last night, I just felt frustrated people would give up and not even try, like these people in this one documentary I was watching. I also realize 2 shows on cable does not equal exhaustive research! This LJ/DP forum historically has not demanded that kind of effort, and I absolutely, sincerely wanted to hear other people's opinions and ideas, but not so much emotional, knee jerk reactions. There were some really great, well thought out comments to my post, and I thank you, the ones that took the time to reply to me thoughtfully, regardless of what you might think of me personally.

(Post a new comment)

	danger0usbeans 2008-07-13 06:46 am UTC (link)
	You're assuming that poverty and drug addiction are the same thing. They are not. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	nabeyaki_udon 2008-07-13 06:51 am UTC (link)
	I'm not really. I could have wrote more, but more than 1 paragraph here is too much. People around our globe are starving to death right now, because of poverty and not drugs. What is troubling my mind is why the drug addicted family in the USA would rather do drugs, than carve out a little niche of dignity for themselves. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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danger0usbeans, 2008-07-13 07:12 am UTC

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taiganaut, 2008-07-13 07:12 pm UTC

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danger0usbeans, 2008-07-13 07:44 pm UTC

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taiganaut, 2008-07-13 08:01 pm UTC

	varro 2008-07-13 08:47 pm UTC (link)
	Poverty makes drug addiction a "one strike, you're out" situation. If you're in at least a middle-class existence, you'll have opportunities to clean up and keep your job, family life, and other facets of your existence. If you're lower down, you'll keep on spiraling down until everything is taken away from you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jakeh3k 2008-07-13 06:47 am UTC (link)
	My thought is, maybe these meth addicts were like that because they were just dumbasses, not because they were poor. (Reply to this)

penantes
2008-07-13 06:53 am UTC (link)

drug and alcohol addiction aside...if you haven't experienced true poverty (eating out of garbage cans, living on the streets, living daily with medical issues that persistantly get worse cuz you can't get medical care, and living with constant violence and other homeless people on the street (some of who are mentally ill) then it might be hard to imagine why someone might just give up.
But if you have to deal with these things day in and day out...its easy to lose all hope. Its easy to wave a white flag and its easy to check out.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	nabeyaki_udon 2008-07-13 08:08 am UTC (link)
	I've kind of experienced that kind of poverty before. I went to New Zealand with only 5 Australin dollars in my pocket, and I lived there fairly well for 6 weeks, because I sought out work on my own. I ate sparse, but I had tons of fun. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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lucasmo, 2008-07-13 08:47 am UTC

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nabeyaki_udon, 2008-07-13 08:55 am UTC

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lucasmo, 2008-07-13 09:12 am UTC

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sinnamongirl, 2008-07-13 09:32 am UTC

	jakeh3k 2008-07-13 06:56 am UTC (link)
	And you're also forgetting all the rich people who DON'T have to shoplift to support THEIR cocaine habits, because they have too much damn money in the first place. Basically saying the same thing I said above in different words, this is more an issue of personal character, instead of economic class. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	nabeyaki_udon 2008-07-13 07:03 am UTC (link)
	There are people that inherit wealth and opportunity. But there's even more people that chose to wake up and go to work. You're probably one of them. I'm already slightly regretting making this post, but the responses are great. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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danger0usbeans, 2008-07-13 07:33 am UTC

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nabeyaki_udon, 2008-07-13 07:38 am UTC

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postpunkjustin, 2008-07-13 10:36 am UTC

a note.

luminais
2008-07-13 06:57 am UTC (link)

i just want to point out that poverty is not a coincidence. poverty is intentional. poverty is perpetuated by those in power (state and corporate leaders). poverty is an inherent by-product of capitalism: one person profits, one person is exploited.

this power difference is constantly reinforced. you can barely spend five minutes in capitalist, hierarchal society without being reminded of this.

keep this in mind, and realize that the question you're asking is even more complicated than it originally appears.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: a note.

nabeyaki_udon
2008-07-13 07:09 am UTC (link)

You did just remind me that is a tenet of Marxist theory.
But, I think even if I was hypothetically poor, I could choose to live better with with what I could meagerly earn. She lives here in the USA, and I'd think even on welfare or minimum wage, she could do better.
I probably shouldn't have made the original post. But I'm home tonight and think about this kind of shit all the time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: a note. -

luminais, 2008-07-13 07:17 am UTC

Re: a note. -

nabeyaki_udon, 2008-07-13 07:23 am UTC

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violet_tigress1, 2008-07-13 08:12 am UTC

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nabeyaki_udon, 2008-07-13 08:27 am UTC

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taiganaut, 2008-07-13 07:25 pm UTC

	dave256 2008-07-13 07:09 am UTC (link)
	Tony Snow was a giant fucking douche. That he's dead (good riddance) doesn't suddenly make what he did while he was alive ok. The man was a professional liar. He lied. For money. At least whores make you feel good when they prostitute themselves. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	str8ontilmornin 2008-07-13 07:18 am UTC (link)
	Agreed. A human with cancer and a family but still a giant fucking douche. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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nabeyaki_udon, 2008-07-13 07:20 am UTC

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swingangel, 2008-07-13 07:53 am UTC

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nabeyaki_udon, 2008-07-13 08:04 am UTC

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swingangel, 2008-07-13 04:55 pm UTC

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forced_plastic, 2008-07-13 05:49 pm UTC

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postpunkjustin, 2008-07-13 10:40 am UTC

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halloween, 2008-07-13 01:09 pm UTC

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phrassie, 2008-07-13 04:19 pm UTC

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dave256, 2008-07-13 05:40 pm UTC

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halloween, 2008-07-13 08:01 pm UTC

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varro, 2008-07-13 08:51 pm UTC

	xplo_eristotle 2008-07-13 07:20 am UTC (link)
	Thank god someone finally realized that a family of meth addicts they saw on TV accurately represent all the poor people in America. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	nabeyaki_udon 2008-07-13 07:22 am UTC (link)
	If I believed what you just said I did, I would not have spent the time writing up this post. I asked a question, and invited correction from anyone wise enough to give it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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lunadragonfly, 2008-07-13 03:46 pm UTC

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ms_xeno, 2008-07-13 06:41 pm UTC

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prettymuchjulia, 2008-07-13 06:18 pm UTC

	margokennedy 2008-07-13 07:35 am UTC (link)
	probably stuff like this doesn't help (Reply to this)

puncher
2008-07-13 08:13 am UTC (link)

The world is really, really complex. There are a lot of people working really hard, all the time, and they're still poor.

Drugs are amazing. To someone who has neither been an addict nor spent any time as a scientist studying the biochemical or psychological nature of drugs, I can imagine it would be hard to understand the power they have.

To me it doesn't seem much like life is about effort; it seems more like it's mostly luck, and there are sure a lot of bad, dark alleys you can run into by chance.

I've worked as a scientist; I've worked with the homeless; I've struggled with substances. In all of those circumstances I can tell you that disdain has never made anything better. The only thing you can do is love.

I am reminded of the words of President Dwight Eisenhower, during his farewell address:

To all the peoples of the world, I once more give expression to America's prayerful and continuing aspiration: We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its few spiritual blessings. Those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibility; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; and that the sources -- scourges of poverty, disease, and ignorance will be made [to] disappear from the earth; and that in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	nabeyaki_udon 2008-07-13 08:24 am UTC (link)
	Same here. I just ponder this shit, all the time. It's a burden on my psyche I can't explain. I have never felt happy anytime I've ever passed judgment on another soul. It bothers me a lot. (Reply to this) (Parent)

theotherjay
2008-07-13 08:30 am UTC (link)

• Because poverty and desperation tend to produce actions that focus on short-term benefit in favor of long-term improvement, and addiction is both caused by this bias and enhanced by it enormously

• Because poverty is relative, and poverty in America is still better than what's to be had in poorer countries

• Because our culture emphasizes feeling good NOW (I'm actually a little divided on this one. But it deserves to be out there.)

• Because - well, you saw two examples. They don't conclusively indicate a general trend. It may well be that all the hardworking, non-drug-addicted poor people here and elsewhere get no attention, but media outlets like running stories about the tweaking ones because the stories are shocking, and they afford a convenient, morally comfortable answer to the problems of social justice. ("The modern conservative is engaged in one of mankind's oldest pursuits: the search for an ethical justification for selfishness.")

• Because the crushing weight of economic inertia created by our social institutions, combined with the American free-market rhetoric that blames the poor for their own troubles, makes it hard to believe that exertion will make any difference - because, in this economic climate, it may well not.

Ok?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	nabeyaki_udon 2008-07-13 08:38 am UTC (link)
	Better than OK. I want to re-read this one. I set up a straw man to be struck down. I sincerely wanted to hear at least one good criticism of what I said. Well done. (Reply to this) (Parent)

madscience
2008-07-13 08:52 am UTC (link)

I think poor Americans are unhappy because they're surrounded by raging materialism. Our poorest are richer than most of the world's population, but we always want more stuff.

Drugs are one of the effects of that. People are so completely dissatisfied with their lives that they seek escape in self-destruction.

I'm not the type to turn to drugs, but I have my own kind of crazy. Maybe it's because I'm aware of the materialism around me, but sometimes I want to just abandon all this bullshit and live out of a backpack.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	nabeyaki_udon 2008-07-13 08:57 am UTC (link)
	"I think poor Americans are unhappy because they're surrounded by raging materialism." One of the best comments. I think you're you're really insightful, and not bound by party rhetoric. Thank you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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taiganaut, 2008-07-13 07:17 pm UTC

lucasmo
2008-07-13 09:04 am UTC (link)

I may be restating some stuff here, oh well. My opinions might also be a little skewed because it's late.

The media loves to highlight stories about poverty that are shocking and get good ratings. Would a nightly special on a two parent family that both works diligently at minimum wage jobs be remotely interesting? No! Instead, you get to see the meth addicts, the junkies passed out on the streets, the dangerous crime-ridden slums, the welfare moms with 20 kids. For every one of these stories, there are probably thousands of stories of poor people struggling to get by honorably. They're just not sensational.

Being poor (not by choice) is downright depressing. For one, society looks down on you and essentially blames you for "failing." As a child who grew up in an impoverished family, it took years for me to figure out that I wasn't completely worthless. This wasn't a value instilled by my parents; it was from the constant societal reaffirmation that there was something inherently wrong with me (from peers, from doctors [one even told me to get a job so I could pay for health insurance -- I was twelve!], from popular media, etc). Our society puts tremendous weight on the acquisition of material goods, and if you can't afford them you appear like less of a person. Partly because our society is so individualistic, and partially because people can be complete dicks, many people reaffirm their own existence by informing you of their social status above you on the social ladder.

Our society also has this wonderful idea of the "american dream," that anyone can work hard and be dedicated and they'll be on their way to success! If you try for many years to do this and fail, it's discouraging.

Accepting public assistance is also incredibly demeaning. I don't know how it is nowadays, but back when there were paper foodstamps you'd get glares from people as you purchased groceries. Occasionally, people would make comments to each other about how people were 'living off the system.'

// I could rant about this for hours.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ms_xeno 2008-07-13 06:40 pm UTC (link)
	...Would a nightly special on a two parent family that both works diligently at minimum wage jobs be remotely interesting?... I think I love you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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punk_intellect, 2008-07-13 07:09 pm UTC

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nabeyaki_udon, 2008-07-13 07:41 pm UTC

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lucasmo, 2008-07-13 08:11 pm UTC

sinnamongirl
2008-07-13 09:59 am UTC (link)

I think you need to do more research into the sociology of drug abuse, the relation of drug abuse to mental illness, and class statistics for abuse/treatment. I'd find you a list of books, but I'm working, I'm tired, and I'm hungry, so you're on your own :) I thought I had some really cool things to say but they're not relating very well.

As a personal aside, I'm pretty convinced that it's just Americans in general that are pretty apathetic, not just those in poverty.

It's all a matter of perspective and observation anyway; totally subjective. For instance, I grew up in a working/lower class family, and saw people working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet. My parents finally hit lower-middle to middle class, and I saw so many lazy-ass teenagers rolling around getting high that I wanted to smack them for ignoring the privileges they have- which they were convinced weren't nearly as much as the next people up on the money ladder. I'd blame the drugs for giving up/not even trying, before I'd blame poverty. But then, I come from a background of being both poor and being a drug user, and I'd much rather blame it on the drugs than anything else, possibly because I've been indoctrinated to believe that by working hard enough, one can claw their way to some sort of monetary safety area. And, also, I found it really easy to just escape through the drugs, and sometimes the escape was the only thing I had to look forward to. It all depends on how you were raised and your personal perspective, in the end.

Plus, if you get into the psychology of drug addiction/mental illness, that has a lot to do with it too. I don't think the poor are more likely to be mentally ill, but they're less likely to have access to health care so more likely to self-medicate. Also, meth was really popular as a blue-collar drug; it helped people get through long shifts in mills and factories, and sometimes getting through a shift is all you can hope for.

These 2 reports you saw sound very biased, and since ratings have a lot to do with what's shown on air, it's going to be more gripping than otherwise.

Also, if you've chosen moneylessness/homelessness, it's a much different beast than having grown up that way.

That's all... I wish I was a bit more coherent right now, but I'm taking a break from work and couldn't really piece anything better together.

(Reply to this)

	lokidecat 2008-07-13 01:14 pm UTC (link)
	America: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. We guarantee the chase and not much else. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	taiganaut 2008-07-13 07:19 pm UTC (link)
	And then conveniently substitute for it a meaningless job and an endless expanse of big box stores and suburban asteroid belts. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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violet_tigress1, 2008-07-13 09:45 pm UTC

	halloween 2008-07-13 01:18 pm UTC (link)
	All I gotta say is Tony Snow was the most skilled Press Secretary since Ari Fleischer. I, for one, will miss him. (Reply to this)

bright_new_skin
2008-07-13 04:24 pm UTC (link)

maybe it's this american mentality that everything should be given to you?? most people feel entitled to have and do whatever they want without having to earn it and work for it. but of course, when they don't get it, they blame everybody except for themselves.

how often have you heard an addict say "this is completely 100% the result of my poor choices"?

it's always "that's why i got into it...because i was abused, because he/she made me, because i needed to be cool"....take responsibility for your shitty actions and stop being a parasite. either get your act together or die.

(Reply to this)

punk_intellect
2008-07-13 06:01 pm UTC (link)

Tony Snow was a lying sack of shit, who willingly helped the White House (et al) dupe the "mainstream media". He, along with Dana Perino, are two of the worst White House Press secretaries. Ever.

As to the drug addiction, books have been written about abject poverty and drug addiction.
I had a pretty horrible drug problem when I was younger. Slept on rooftops, ate at soup kitchens (not playing poor for six weeks). With that kind of bleak existence, I don't think it surprises anyone that people seek any kind of escape.
Unless you've walked in someone else's shoes, you have no right to judge.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

halloween
2008-07-13 08:05 pm UTC (link)

Did you even watch Clinton's press secretaries?

BOOOORRIIIIIING. Snow and Fleischer were some of the only reasons to watch C-Span.

Snow and Fleischer were like...masters of the craft.

And as McClellan stated, there is a difference between willing deception and just believing something wrong to be true.

AND NO ONE DUPED THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA THEY JUST DIDN'T DO THEIR JOBS OMG.

There is also a difference between complacency and being fooled.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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punk_intellect, 2008-07-13 08:32 pm UTC

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halloween, 2008-07-13 09:04 pm UTC

prettymuchjulia
2008-07-13 06:23 pm UTC (link)

Must be nice to live on ignorance hill in your 3 bedroom 2.5 bath?

though I understand what you are asking, I invite you to dwell among the people who you are speaking down against. Have you looked into volunteering with the homeless, working with drug addicts in a program to help them get successful jobs? (those who don't have jobs, many/most do.)

Most of us live 3 paychecks away from poverty and homelessness, I once read, and I find it quite true. Until we live in a country that provides successful social programs, and reasonable/free health care... We will live in a country that has poverty stricken families and people who can only survive through self medication.

thinking about your position, and having a bit more of a well-rounded point of view might have helped you here at DP (though we are notorious for snarking.) However, I do believe your question is genuine, and not meant to offend. please look into your views more, and get some facts to back yourself up, and then re-post your findings. I wish you luck :)

(Reply to this)

	::: yawns ::: glowing_fish 2008-07-13 06:53 pm UTC (link)
	I will dismiss this with "the plural of anecdote is not data" Perhaps you should do some more research other than "I watched a lot of cable today."? Just a suggestion. (Reply to this)

something to think about

glenorglenda13
2008-07-13 07:57 pm UTC (link)

I thought to myself, they could have at least got even minimum wage jobs, and found healthier things to do with their spare time.

Meth is a stimulant, like coffee, and there's always the possibility that they began using meth to enhance their work performance(rather than a "spare time" activity), but ended up addicted and unbalanced instead.
Many speed addicts(whether it be meth or another sort of amphetamine) start out because of the boost it gives them to work fast and focus for long periods of time.
But of course, that all goes down the toilet quickly if someone gets addicted.

(Reply to this)

kengwen
2008-07-14 12:38 am UTC (link)

Hi. I have one thought to share - normally I'd read through comments to see if anyone else got there first but I'd rather not scroll through multiple pages of people attacking you, so if this is redundant, sorry.
The USA is supposed to be :a land of golden opportunity" - we (I'm from the USA) certainly get that hammered into our heads in history classes. So if you're poor in Mexico, it's pretty natural to think, "if I can just cross this border, everything will be ok." And honestly, less-than-minimum-wage here is often still better than what they had in Mexico, so even when they're struggling here it looks like they're better off than they were before. But if you're poor and struggling in the USA...it's easy to end up just thinking, "what's wrong with me?! Here I am in the land of opportunity and I'm still failing." And if you think the problem is that you're somehow faulty (because certainly the problem can't be the land of opportunity) then what sense does it make to work and try hard - it's easy to think you're doomed to failure no matter how hard you work, so why expend that effort. "Nickled & Dimed" i believe is the name of a book written by a woman who tried to live on minimum wage jobs for a year or two, documenting basically how minimum wage is not a livable wage.

(Reply to this)

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