damnportlanders: Nevada Caucuses

drunkengeebee (

drunkengeebee) wrote in

damnportlanders,
@ 2008-01-19 13:26:00

Nevada Caucuses
So I'm sitting at home watching CNN to get the results of this thing. They're doing demographic breakdowns of whom chose whom. According to CNN, Hispanic voters seem to overwhelmingly support Hillary Clinton. The talking heads are trying to make this seem like the Hispanics hate the blacks. But no one ever comes out and says it out right. Is there some sort of historic dislike? Am I just reading things into this that aren't really there? If at all possible, please site sources, I'd like to avoid random race-war wank.

Postscript: Why does every media outlet persist in talking like the caucus system is a winner-take-all system? Technically speaking, Obama and Clinton tied in New Hampshire.

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	theslowkill 2008-01-19 09:38 pm UTC (link)
	what is black people? do they have hate with browns? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-19 09:43 pm UTC (link)
	Stay the fuck out of my thread you stupid cunt. You are not funny. You are not helpful. You have no clear idea of how to discuss race issues. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	theslowkill 2008-01-19 09:55 pm UTC (link)
	How show me how to discuss ~~black people~~r race issues on the internet. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	savemefrommysfl 2008-01-20 02:32 am UTC (link)
	LMAO! Win!! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lunadragonfly 2008-01-19 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	I've heard of Blacks vs Asians but my knowledge of that issue is almost entirely based on Spike Lee movies and Law and Order so I am no help. I'm kind of glad I have a kid this election season as it cuts down on the amount of time I am able to watch CNN and smack myself on the forehead repeatedly. (Reply to this)

	muffhead 2008-01-19 09:58 pm UTC (link)
	Well, you see... at the start of the war of 1812... rambles for 30 minutes ...And thats why as of 1985 the media has portrayed race relations in such a way. I hope that helps. (Reply to this)

	drjeff 2008-01-19 10:28 pm UTC (link)
	I think it has less to do with a hatred of Blacks and more to do with historical support of Bill Clinton by a large Hispanic majority. It makes for much more interesting TV to drop some racial hatred bombs in there, though. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-19 10:50 pm UTC (link)
	That makes a little bit more sense. I also now remember that some of the worst race baiting I saw was on Fox News. They had some Hispanic guy on saying that he didn't think the Hispanic voters wouldn't go for Obama. When asked why, he declined from elaborating. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	vespabelle 2008-01-19 10:41 pm UTC (link)
	Where black and brown collide from The Economist has some ideas. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-19 10:59 pm UTC (link)
	Very interesting article. Thank you. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	glowing_fish 2008-01-19 10:49 pm UTC (link)
	Don't even get me started on the gays and the JewS! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	savemefrommysfl 2008-01-20 02:51 am UTC (link)
	No wonder all four of my gay Jewish friends hate themselves. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	qousqous 2008-01-20 03:03 am UTC (link)
	I don't hate myself. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 04:02 am UTC (link)
	Then you're obviously not his friend. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	glowing_fish 2008-01-20 07:25 am UTC (link)
	QED! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	glowing_fish 2008-01-20 07:26 am UTC (link)
	No, that is just because they are UGLY gay Jews. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tsukara
2008-01-19 11:24 pm UTC (link)

*West Wing geek moment* There was an episode concerning this during the last season of the West Wing (when a Latino was running for president). Apparently there's quite a bit of history there. As far as I can gather from the venerable work of fiction and subsequent readings, it's something to do with each feeling that the other is favored more/less oppressed than they are. Something like that.

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	drunkengeebee 2008-01-19 11:38 pm UTC (link)
	Off topic but... Is West Wing worth watching from the beginning? Or is it kinda like Doonesbury, where it's more topical and loses its flavor over time? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

aushlo
2008-01-20 12:25 am UTC (link)

Random thread-jumping led me here. I've no particularly keen knowledge about the original topic, but I will say West Wing is excellent overall and should be watched in its entirety. It is a bit inconsistently written, but the characters are largely superb and the writing is generally top-notch. Although, interestingly, the one black character in the series, Charlie, President Bartlet's "bodyman", or personal assistant, is a little problematic for me in that I felt he was written by well-meaning but somewhat ridiculous white people as sort of be an idealized version of african american youth. It's only really driven home or me in a few episodes, but at times I half wondered when, by some obscure clause in US law he would end up running the country for an episode, or bullets would ricochet off his chest or something. That said, there are some fantastic Charlie moments, especially between he and the Pres.

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	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 12:37 am UTC (link)
	You'd think they would throw more black characters into the show. I mean... Jesus, we've got Condie and Colin. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	aushlo 2008-01-20 01:10 am UTC (link)
	I should edit: Black MAIN character. There are a couple of semi regular supporting characters. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	tsukara 2008-01-20 04:09 am UTC (link)
	Pesonally, I love it from the beginning. Seasons 1-4 are some of the best, back when Aaron Sorkin was still on crack and thus writing really well. The topics are broad enough to still be very relevant now. So, short answer? Yes, definately. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jennnk 2008-01-19 11:48 pm UTC (link)
	Hispanic is a B.S. distinction, made up by the U.S. census bureau, that lumps all people with Spanish-speaking ancestors together. News flash, American Media: LATINOS CAN BE BLACK, TOO! Case in point: this guy. (Reply to this)(Thread)

drunkengeebee
2008-01-20 12:00 am UTC (link)

I agree with you in part. But at a certain point, generalizations are necessary. The issue here is the distinction between race and ethnicity. Race is a construct, completely made up. Ethnicity is real. It deals with shared cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits.

Hispanic is defined as, "a person of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race"

Anecdotal evidence can always be found to disprove generalizations. My personal favorite the white African-American guy I used to work with. He was born in the USA. His father was Egyptian and his mother was Swiss. Dude was blond-haired and blue-eyed. He personally identified as African-American.

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	jennnk 2008-01-20 12:06 am UTC (link)
	The problem is, the American media doesn't make the distinction between race & ethnicity. And David Ortiz isn't one isolated anecdote, he is one of MILLIONS of black Latinos in the world. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 12:13 am UTC (link)
	You are correct. There are millions of people of mixed ethnicities and races in the world. But listing the things that the USAian media does that are stupid... Well, I don't have that much time. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

jennnk
2008-01-20 12:25 am UTC (link)

I have an M.A. in journalism, I totally understand what you mean about not having enough time to list what the American media does wrong. But saying that someone who is listed as Hispanic and black is "mixed" is inaccurate in many cases. Puerto Rico, for instance, has many many MANY dark-skinned folks because the African slave trade often went through there. Same with Cuba and many places in South America. Brazil, for instance, has an amazing range, from paler than me (see icon) to darker than my former Kenyan neighbor. My own husband's family is from Ecuador (mom's side) and racism is alive & well there, as evidenced by abuelita's disdain for one of mom's first American boyfriends who was "not white enough," despite also being from Ecuador.

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drunkengeebee
2008-01-20 12:35 am UTC (link)

You're getting a bit out of my depth here with racism issues from other countries and who is liked or disliked by other races and the like.

The thing that maybe confuses people is using the same word to mean different things. In this particular instance, I tend to think of Hispanic as being more or a country of origin nomenclature. While Latino/a is more of an ethnic/race word.

But back to my original question, do you have any insight on the media created division between "blacks" and "hispanics"? Especially in regard to political motivations.

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jennnk
2008-01-20 12:46 am UTC (link)

As far as I can tell, it's just that - media-created. Why, I'm not sure. Divide & conquer to keep the brown people from rising up against white privilege? If I were more of a conspiracy theorist, I might buy into that. But I think it's one of those "see one brown person dislike another brown person who speaks Spanish and extrapolate those people to represent every person from both groups because it will sell papers" thing. We are largely, as a society, unwilling and unable to see past stereotypes (even "good" ones like bi-racial kids are attractive & Asians are good at math & science) and sound bytes. This makes a good sound byte.

Did you, by chance, see the really shitty article in the NY Times the other day about Obama & the "Latino vote?" Don't get me fucking started on voting blocs, both real and imagined.

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drunkengeebee
2008-01-20 01:02 am UTC (link)

I didn't see that article the first time around. I tend to take anything on race issues that quotes from Sharpton in a way that doesn't make Sharpton out to be a blithering idiot as a bad report. I liked this quote though, "I don’t think eating tacos,” is effective, she said with a flick at Mrs. Clinton."

I thought this was an interesting take on a different voting bloc: Christian Voters

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infoape
2008-01-20 12:42 am UTC (link)

As a Latino and having grown up in a mixed race neighborhood in urban San Diego, I can just say that, like a lot of other "racial" tension issues it's pretty much a "they are different from us and thus we hate them" kind of thing. I know this is a gross oversimplification and sure there are lots of nuances, cultural and contextual that could be made. It's something that goes both ways; Blacks haven't liked Latinos and vice versa (and by Latinos in this case, inner city San Diego, we're really talking about Mexican-Americans. I can't speak to the unique issues that might exists in places like Miami or New York where you see a lot of miscegenation between black and latino culture resulting from the Carri bean influence.

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	yourdannybear 2008-01-20 01:29 am UTC (link)
	fuck yah hillary ninjas chucks macbook air at your throat (Reply to this)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 02:23 am UTC (link)
	huh? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lokidecat 2008-01-20 02:08 am UTC (link)
	huh huh Nevada Cauc.... uses. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 02:23 am UTC (link)
	You hear about those mountains in Russia yet? (Reply to this)(Parent)

madscience
2008-01-20 02:24 am UTC (link)

FWIW, black people sometimes hate black people. Somebody was just telling me yesterday about how thousands of Somali refugees that Catholic charities had placed in Atlanta were so disgusted by African-American culture that they packed up and moved en masse to some small town in Maine where they have no community support... but at least there are no other black people.

When I was in the military – my most intimate multi-cultural experience – I never saw much tension between blacks and Hispanics. But Mexicans and Puerto Ricans were always at each others' throats. Mostly racist jokes and stuff, but once or twice I saw people actually throw down over it.

Personally, I don't understand what Hispanic voters would have against a black candidate. It seems to me that a black President would be far less likely to marginalize Hispanics than a Hispanic President would be to marginalize blacks. The difference is that white voters would let the Hispanic get away with it.

Edited at 2008-01-20 02:36 am UTC

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	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 02:38 am UTC (link)
	I'm gonna call bullshit on that Somali refugee thing, unless you can find a source. There are definitely Somali refugees in Atlanta and in Maine. But a move en masse? To quote Wikipedia, "Citation Needed" (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	madscience 2008-01-20 02:42 am UTC (link)
	http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/020908somalis_.shtml (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 04:11 am UTC (link)
	Aaah. I tried googling for that, but my fu was weak. The tone of that article made it seem like they moved for the more robust social-net that Maine has in comparison to Georgia. But, it does mention the Somalis not being happy with urban African-American culture. (Reply to this)(Parent)

savemefrommysfl
2008-01-20 02:49 am UTC (link)

i fucking hate it when people get into the technicalities of the race definitions when it has little or nothing to do with the subject of debate. we know what the OP means by "hispanic" and that's all that matters.

anyhow..based on everything i've read about blacks and hispanics (which is not much), and my experiences with them back in high school, i feel like their dislike for each other is a direct result of competition. society constantly associates both races with the same negative stereotypes: poor, violent, uneducated, etc etc. and we know that competition requires the alienation (can't remember the actual word) of the out-group.

but that's all theoretical. i'm sure there are studies out there somewhere, but i'm just too lazy to look.

oh and i disagree about Obama and Clinton being tied in NH. Clinton was clearly projected to lose, and by a fairly big margin at that, so her pulling through and coming out on top, even if only by a few %, makes her win that much more significant.

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drunkengeebee
2008-01-20 04:05 am UTC (link)

But she didn't win. They both received the same number of delegates. Obama just won Nevada. All the primaries are about are delegates. So far, Obama is winning with the highest number of state awarded delegates. Clinton is winning with more super-delegates having pledged to vote for her. This whole "winning" or "losing" of states that the media talks about... Fucking retarded. They are mis-representing the facts.

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	savemefrommysfl 2008-01-20 09:24 am UTC (link)
	oh, i didn't know we were talking about delegates. my bad. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	qousqous 2008-01-20 03:03 am UTC (link)
	For that matter, Obama won in terms of final delegate count in Nevada. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	drunkengeebee 2008-01-20 04:06 am UTC (link)
	That fact came out after I made my original post. Which is why I get physically heated and angry every time the TV says, "Hillary Won!!!1!!1!" (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

glowing_fish
2008-01-22 08:44 am UTC (link)

One thing Qousqous and myself have noticed is that all the margins in these (democratic) primaries are pretty narrow, unless it is a state where someone didn't actively campaign. In the republican primaries, slightly less.

And yet, the media has taken every one to be a sign of MOMENTUM. Like, in Nevada, Hillary Clinton beat Obama by 5,000 votes. None of this stuff is a sign of the shifting priorities of a generation.

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drunkengeebee
2008-01-23 03:15 am UTC (link)

I think that's beginning to change, and will continue to get worse and worse. Or better and better depending on which candidate people like more. With Freddie dropping out today and Edwards being made quickly irrelevant.... Huckabee is out of money and Romney is creepy. The NYT is writing hit piece after hit piece on Guilliani. I think only McCain is left, and he's gonna die of old age within the year anyways. Dude is like Methuselah old.

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glowing_fish
2008-01-23 06:32 am UTC (link)

None of the candidates have any momentum, because all of them have something that someone is going to hold against them.
Which makes the race more interesting, they actually have to EXPLAIN their positions, rather than just seeming to be the "heir" to the position.

Something tells me that whoever wins this election, besides maybe Obama, is going to be a one-termer, anyway.

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