Bonnie Burton ([info]bonniegrrl) wrote in [info]crafty_tardis,
@ 2008-05-12 13:27:00
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BBC Destroys Cute Knitted Versions of Doctor Who Monsters
http://io9.com/389647/bbc-destroys-cute-knitted-versions-of-doctor-who-monsters

"I'm not a big letter-writing campaign person, but a line has been crossed when the BBC starts taking away cute knitted dolls that look like Doctor Who monsters. Apparently some kind of copyright nonsense inspired a wanker at BBC legal to force the nice knitter at Mazzmatazz to remove all the cool patterns posted there for people who wanted to make plush animals out of the Ood (at left) and several others. Let remind you that the Ood are born with their brains in their hands, sing psychically, and have already been oppressed enough by humans. Now I am deprived of these cute yarn monsters and I am angry. Please write to the BBC and complain."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/

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[info]shove_this_job
2008-05-12 08:36 pm UTC (link)
I just sent a not to Neil Gaiman, I hope he addresses this issue on his blog, as

A) he is big on copyright

B) he has had OODLES of people make homemade stuff after his works, and

C) he loves Doctor Who.

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[info]annoyedwabbit
2008-05-12 09:48 pm UTC (link)
I was contemplating doing the same thing. ^_^ Neil Gaiman is so awesome about communicating with his fans, and seems really down-to-earth about copyright stuff. If I see a letter about knitting and the BBC show up on his blog, I shall be very excited.

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[info]givemethewhip
2008-05-13 01:22 am UTC (link)
I have nothing to say here except: OODles. Ha.

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[info]14icedbear
2008-05-12 08:41 pm UTC (link)
i love this group and i think it's great that people take it upon themselves to do doctor who crafty projects, but i really don't see the big deal here. it's a little harsh of the bbc, but imagine a big company doing the same thing this woman did. she meant well and it looks like she wasn't charging any money, but despite what a lot of people think that's really not the point.

i don't think the bbc is trying to stop people from making their own crafty stuff, just distributing patterns. it's a little mercenary, but they want to be sure that if they ever want to sell knitting patterns everybody won't already have a million of them.

i do understand why this makes people sad, and i know this is a really unpopular opinion. i just think it's pretty clear that the bbc is being a little lame but hardly evil.

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[info]sorakirei
2008-05-12 08:48 pm UTC (link)
i don't think the bbc is trying to stop people from making their own crafty stuff, just distributing patterns. it's a little mercenary, but they want to be sure that if they ever want to sell knitting patterns everybody won't already have a million of them.

But the thing of it is, many fans are 99% certain that BBC would NEVER sell knitting patterns for stuff. And even if they did, fans would still make patterns for things that the BBC weren't providing or better designs of the existing ones. This will be a never ending cycle.

I just really wish companies would shut up when the artist is making NOTHING off the design.

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[info]14icedbear
2008-05-12 09:02 pm UTC (link)
i think i understand what you mean. but i would argue that it's not just about whether or not somebody makes money off somebody else's intellectual property, it's whether or not there's any chance they could be causing the copyright holder to make less money. and you're probably right that the bbc will never sell knitting patterns, but they obviously think this type of thing could harm their ability to sell merchandise, whether they're actually correct or not.

i'm sure they think that they're protecting their own interests. i'm not saying it's totally okay, just that it's not like they're being deliberately mean.

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[info]kethryvis
2008-05-12 09:32 pm UTC (link)
I really don't know anyone who crafts fan items who doesn't also purchase the actual licensed stuff. I sincerely doubt the Beeb is loosing any money over this stuff, especially since the stuff we're making they don't even sell. I've made my own cute and cuddly Dalek and that's fine. But if the Beeb were to put one up for sale? I'd be all over it like white on rice. They don't sell scarves or plushies of any of the monsters, or costume pieces so we can be our own Doctor Whoever number, they really aren't losing money from us.

As I said to someone else... a happy fan is one who will spend money like crazy on your show, watch it, and support your sponsors. An unhappy fan will not only not do those things, but tell everyone they know to not do those things. Something this small isn't losing them the kind of money they could lose if they really piss off the fanbase.

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[info]bonniegrrl
2008-05-12 09:37 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'd be really interested to see this person, or even anyone here on this site, propose an official Doctor Who craft book.

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[info]uozaki
2008-05-12 10:07 pm UTC (link)
But there already IS one. (Now if the Beeb would just do an updated version.)

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[info]knitchick1979
2008-05-13 03:48 am UTC (link)
Yeah with some better patterns. Some of the stuff in there is cool, don't get me wrong, but the patterns aren't the best....now if they'd hire Mazzmatazz to write the patterns ;)

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[info]14icedbear
2008-05-12 10:10 pm UTC (link)
i think every point you're making is completely valid and correct. they definitely didn't need to do this to protect themselves, even if they seem to think so.

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[info]rjdaae
2008-05-12 09:38 pm UTC (link)
And even if they did, fans would still make patterns for things that the BBC weren't providing or better designs of the existing ones.

From what I've heard, the official BBC Doctor Who Scarf pattern wasn't all that accurate... Fans have sure improved on that one!

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[info]shinji_star
2008-05-13 08:46 am UTC (link)
I did meet someone who got a Dalek fancy dress costume she had designed licenced. It's now onsale in a Woolworths near you. I think Mazzmatazz's patterns would sell rather well as there are already Doctor Who items for the more craftilly inclined on the market.

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[info]i_id
2008-05-12 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Possibly more than that, they want to be sure that if they ever want to sell knitting patterns, they won't be accused of stealing the idea.

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[info]bonniegrrl
2008-05-12 09:29 pm UTC (link)
Yeah I agree.

She shouldn't be selling something that she doesn't officially own the rights to. She should have proposed a Doctor Who Craft Book so she could do this and not get a C&D.

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[info]kethryvis
2008-05-12 09:33 pm UTC (link)
My understanding is the person who actually got the C&D was not selling anything, and was only providing free patterns. What she did do was call down the guard on someone on eBay who *was* selling unlicensed DW items.

(this is what I've understood, I could be wrong)

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[info]bruyere_75
2008-05-12 10:08 pm UTC (link)
Not only was the person on eBay selling an Adipose pattern, but they were selling Mazzmatazz's pattern! So Mazz got burned twice, once by the person selling the pattern she created, and again by the BBC after she told that person to stop.

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[info]kethryvis
2008-05-12 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Whoa! Doubleplus not fair! Wow!

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[info]airawyn
2008-05-12 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Er, then why are you a member of this community, if you aren't interested in sharing patterns?

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[info]14icedbear
2008-05-12 10:04 pm UTC (link)
there's no need to pick on me and be sarcastic just because i disagree. maybe i shouldn't be here if i'm not welcome.

i am interested in sharing patterns, actually, and while i can see how that might seem inconsistent it's actually not - people can make lots of projects relating to who fandom, not all of which would infringe on anybody's copyright. i'm not even that worried about copyright infringement, i just can't complain about when the copyright holder cracks down even if they go overboard.

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[info]airawyn
2008-05-12 10:45 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, okay, that was bitchy. Sorry about that.

Thing is, I don't believe there's anything illegal or wrong about sharing knitting patterns online for free. There's provisions in copyright law for this kind of thing - it's called "fair use" or "fair dealing." I don't know the specifics of UK law (IANAL) but I think she's got a right to make and share these patterns without permission from the BBC.

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[info]iko
2008-05-12 10:16 pm UTC (link)
For me, the problem with the BBC is the inconsistency in how they treat their copyright.

Plus, there is a lot of discussion right now about transformative works. I really like the technollama post about this issue because it contains some interesting points.

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[info]manmadememories
2008-05-12 10:14 pm UTC (link)
I don't think the BBC has a legal leg to stand on. But I'm not well versed in British law. They can really only ask her to take them down. If she isn't making any money then no copyright laws have been broken, at least thats how it works here in the states.

But still this is low... rule #1 don't make the fans angry.

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[info]sailorcoruscant
2008-05-12 11:31 pm UTC (link)
Actually, there's nothing in either US or UK copyright law about making money or not. Every doctor who toy/scarf/whatever we've ever made has been infringing copyright (just as every piece of fanfiction is copyright infringement), but it's generally overlooked by the powers that be because no one is making any money and it's better to keep the fans on side. As someone said above, "happy fans are fans that are likely to spend money".

They have a leg to stand on. Whether they should stand on it or not is whole 'nother matter.

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[info]coaldustcanary
2008-05-13 12:15 am UTC (link)
Actually, that's not really true, either. At least in the US, there never has been a proper test of the legality of fanfiction or fanworks, so it's totally unclear whether they have a "leg to stand on" or not. There's never been a test case of anything like this, as far as I'm aware.

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[info]sailorcoruscant
2008-05-13 12:26 am UTC (link)
Well, there was the Marion Zimmer Bradley fiasco, where a book is still unpublished because it was set at the same time and in a similar setting to a piece of fanfiction and the fanficcer threatened to sue if she didn't get co-author credit.

But you're right, there is no precedent.

And while it would be interesting to see what the courts decide, it's much nicer when the copyright owners just let the fans get on with things. Things like this just result in ill-will towards the powers that be.

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[info]thekiwi
2008-05-13 12:45 am UTC (link)
But they would still have to prove a tangible damage or loss--money, product, etc--to file a suit in court and to receive reparations, which is the primary reason Copyright, Trademark and Patent exist in the first place.

And in some cases, with text and audio I believe, there are specific clauses for the amount which can be borrowed or used via free use, and how to credit the original artist.

Unfortunately copyright and technology are far from matched, and many of the proposals to "update" the system aren't much better or friendly for either side.

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[info]theosmom
2008-05-13 02:10 am UTC (link)
For US copyright you can see this page:
http://www.copyright.gov/
I just asked if you can give away a pattern that you designed that knits a character from a movie. It takes them a few days to get back to you once a question is submitted. The last time I asked it took 2 weeks.

I do think it is poor public relations. I have been looking for a bedroom set for my son and was going to buy the official licensed set from England. It would have been a lot to have it shipped, but it was for his birthday present. I really liked the curtains. I would have bought the set and knitted the dolls for him. It wasn't an either or. Now I am going to make him a quilt instead (watch for the pattern soon).

I knit in public - at the park while my toddler plays, doctor offices, school functions... and people ask me what I am working on. It is a great opportunity to talk about Dr. Who. Not a lot of people know that it is on again and that it is a good series to watch as a family. Free publicity.

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[info]rhyski
2008-05-13 02:39 am UTC (link)
Amen to the last bit.

I had to explain it to about 15 people when I crocheted my TARDIS.

And my friend George said: If Doctor Who was here, he'd make the BBC understand, and remove the evil
tenticled alien that secretly controls it from an invisible orbiting space
station. :)

Which is a pretty awesome mental image.

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[info]knitchick1979
2008-05-13 03:50 am UTC (link)
Yes! That would be totally awesome!!!

Hmm, shall we send Mister Tennant a note about stopping that evil tentatcled alien? ;) (I get the feeling he might! He's a fan too!!)

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[info]bethanyconnalor
2008-05-13 07:36 pm UTC (link)
Hurm....I'm finding that the BBC's complaints thing doesn't have a nice little button for "fight the man RE: Knitting patterns"
What did y'all put it under? Telly programmes or General Beeb? I think I'm putting it under Telly Programmes. RE: merchandising and all that. Or fanbase.
Ack. Can someone tell me what channel Doctor Who comes on in the BBC? I'm rather hopeless at finding things like that out... It's asking for the transmission date as well, if anyone has the official British one.

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[info]tanyad
2008-05-15 11:04 am UTC (link)
I put it under General Beeb

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From Xixie
(Anonymous)
2008-05-14 08:44 pm UTC (link)
Here's email I sent to BBC.

I am very upset that you have forced Doctor Who fans to remove knitting patterns from the internet. First off, to punish people who obviously are completely devoted to the show you are trying to protect is ridiculous and counterproductive. How can knitting myself a cuddly Adipose do anything other than reinforce my love of all things Doctor Who? I will be more likely to buy your merchandise after being so amused by the adorable things I knit myself.

Secondly, I don't see you offering me a cute cuddly Adipose to buy. And I wanted one as soon as I saw the episode. That may be neither here nor there, but I wanted it to be said.

Finally, I suppose that the little things may have been sold online, but have you seen how many Four scarves are on ebay? Alot. We live in a digital age. You can't control everything, and I would like you think you have better things to worry about.

All the above may seem a little snarky and I apologize, I'm just really tired of large corporations like the BBC going all "legal kamikaze" on the people who support them most: the fans.

Yours respectfully,

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