WolvenOne ([info]wolvenone) wrote in [info]confurvatives,
@ 2008-04-29 22:54:00
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An Inconvenient Truth: A Realistic Assessment of the Energy Crises
Before going too far I feel inclined to type up a brief assessment of the situation, to add context and to make certain everyone is on the same page.

For many decades a question has been repeatedly been put onto the hands of lawmakers. Do we expand our infrastructure, drill for more oil, build more power-plants, refine the equipment we already have, or do we instead focus on preserving our environment and making certain it's a pleasant place to live? For the most part, we've repeatedly chosen the latter, and for the most part, it was the right decision. For all the benefits of industrialization, some of its excesses have been harmful to the world around us, and reigning in some of those excesses was by in large a good idea.

However, while the excesses of industrialization have been wrought with danger, so have the excesses of environmentalism. As the word's population grew, our capacity to provide fuel and energy has not, and now that increasingly large portions of the worlds population are becoming affluent for the very first time, we're finding ourselves with too much demand and not enough supply. The problem is exacerbated by other factors, government taxation, tariffs, mandatory use of bio-fuels that cost more than the gasoline they are replacing. Not to mention foreign oil cartels, oil companies that are not aggressive enough in weeding out bottlenecks in their supply line, and automobiles that do not make good enough use of the fuels they run on.

Normally, all of this would simply be called a political, or economic problem, but it is about to go beyond that. As the price of fuel and energy goes up, it creates an inflationary effect on nearly every market on earth. The prices of clothes, tools, and most importantly food, increases regardless of whether a region is capable of affording these higher prices or not. When the price of food goes up in poor, less stable countries people start dying, starving to death. At first this only effects the people with the most tenuous grasp on life, the people who are most likely to go without enough food to begin with. However, as prices go up, it begins to affect more and more, and what once only effected a minority, soon effects millions of people.

Such tragedy in my mind is not acceptable, especially when we're fully capable of stopping it.

The most effective way to delay this tragedy in the first place, would be to cease the use of Bio-fuels altogether, barring that a temporary reduction in the mandated use of fuels like Ethanol is at the very least warranted. To further drive down costs gas taxes can be suspended, reducing the price of gasoline by several dollars in some countries, and by nearly a dollar in some states. As a further measure tariffs on importing bio-fuels like Ethanol from countries such as Brazil can be removed to act as a slight deflationary measure on food crops.

None of this is a permanent solution, but it would give us time. Time to improve our ability to produce bio-fuels, time to build new power plants, to build refineries and improve our supply line. Most importantly, it gives us time to drill.

This is a very touchy subject for some. Many people simply cannot stomach the thought of drilling. Increasing our supply of fossil fuels however, is the only conceivable way of truly reducing the price of gasoline this decade. Improving the millage of automobiles would help some, however in any given year only 8% of all automobiles are taken off the road. With that figure in mind, even if all automobiles in the United States were to switch over to hybrid or electric cars tomorrow, it'd still take 12.5 years to replace all the gas guzzlers on the road. As it stands, it'll be years before the majority of all new cars sold are hybrids, and even assuming it happens by 2012, we still would not see an end to purely gasoline powered cars in America until the year 2024, sixteen years from now. Even then purely gasoline vehicles will persist in other countries, in South America, Africa, India, and China. China would especially be problematic, as its citizens will soon become affluent enough to start buying their own cars, but not affluent enough to buy more energy efficient cars that cost more. This is only a rough estimate, but if it took America until 2024 to get rid of all purely gasoline powered cars, then it'd take China at least until 2034 if not longer. So like it or not, we're going to be using gasoline for a long long time. While switching to more efficient vehicles is definitely a long term solution, the only thing that is going to have a real prominent deflationary effect on worldwide prices this decade would be additional drilling.

However, additional drilling and additional refineries do not necessarily need to be harmful to the environment. It may require strong arming, but new refineries can be built that're far cleaner then the old ones, and the old ones can be shut down as new refineries replace and surpass their capacity. Oil drilling in and of itself is not that dirty to begin with. Oil drilling rigs are sometimes ran right next to thriving fields of wheat and corn, if the process was really that dirty that would be impossible. Of course, accidents like the Valdez oil spill are always possible, however steps can be taken to mitigate the potential danger to acceptable margins.

Biofuel production can be improved upon to take advantage of organic substances that would otherwise go to waste. While this would not lower the price of fuel it would be cheaper then using corn or wheat to create ethanol, and it would not directly interfere with food prices. Producing all of our fuel in this matter is of course impossible for the time being. We simply do not have methods efficient enough to do it with the amount of space we have available in America. If however bio-fuels can offset five percent of America's fuel consumption, it could effectively allow the United States to cut oil imports from Saudi Arabia to nearly half, which would have a major effect on both security, and global fuel prices.

The ultimate end all solution to the oil shortage however, is most undoubtedly electric cars. To this end I would propose building new power plants to keep the cost of electricity low. Preferably Hydroelectricity, tidal, wind, geo-thermal and of course Nuclear Power Plants. The construction of new Nuclear plants would undoubtedly unnerve many, however unlike coal plants they do not pollute the air, the waste can be reprocessed, greatly reducing the level and length of their radioactivity, and they have the benefit of being usable anywhere providing there is a sufficient body of water nearby. Unfortunately we'll have to put up with coal powered plants for a long time, despite the fact that they're dirty and that coal could be put to better use. Even if we closed all coal powered power plants in America, they would remain the predominant method of power generation in many other countries, in large part due to their relatively simple construction, and low cost. Due to these circumstances, it's unlikely that we'll see an end to greenhouse gas emissions anytime soon, and although it's unclear how much of an effect they have on global temperatures, steps will need to be taken to preserve Earth's current climate.

Geoengineering is a term you'll likely be hearing a lot over the next twenty years. In short it is a newer field of science that deals with methods which might be used to manipulate and control the earth's climate. Amongst the ideas currently being floated around, the one that would have the most immediate effect, and allow for the greatest amount of precision control, would involve building a series of mirrors orbiting earth to reflect away sunlight and cool Earth as needed. Alternatively reflecting light to earth could be used to raise temperatures should another ice-age ever occur. Another method for cooling the earth would be to fertilize the worlds oceans and promote the growth of Algae. Doing so would presumably have a cleaning effect on the world's atmosphere and should in turn nullify greenhouse gases in the atmosphere over time. While this later solution would not be as immediate or as precise as using orbital mirrors, it does have the benefit of being far cheaper to carry out, and would presumably have a positive effect on our oceans ecosystem.

All this being said, this is not a simple problem, and it's likely to be a huge issue for many years to come. I believe we'll get through it, but it is most definitely going to be tough.


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[info]kris_schnee
2008-04-30 05:19 am UTC (link)
An assumption there is that we really are experiencing manmade global warming that absolutely must be addressed to "preserve the climate" the way it is. Your assessment of the fact that we can't wave a wand and get rid of gas-burning cars is right on.

I support ending the misguided mandate that a corn-based ethanol industry spring into existence at Washington's command, while continuing to research cellulose-based ethanol and other fuels and building new power plants.

Geoengineering doesn't sound very practical, given that the US will soon not even have a working space shuttle and that spaceflight is only on the political radar in that Obama has pledged to delay any trip to the Moon or Mars. I've heard a little about the idea of dumping iron in the ocean but am not sure what success that's had.

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[info]wolvenone
2008-04-30 06:11 am UTC (link)
Actually there are two possible replacements to the shuttle being built right now, one privately made and one that NASA is working on. However you're right in that would be more of a long term solution, and would probably only come to pass within the next century only in a worst case scenario.

I actually am very skeptical about Climate Change science, however I wanted to word this in such a way as to diffuse any knee jerk reactions stemming from climate change concerns, and I felt the best way to do that was to seriously consider the possibility.

Washington's Corn based Ethanol mandate is exceptionally grievous when you take into account the tariff on importing ethanol from countries like Brazil. While I doubt that the Ethanol from any one country in and of itself would be able to offset America's bio-fuel production shortcomings, mandating that you must use Ethanol and then making it impossible to buy it at the cheapest possible price reeks of economic entrapment. Furthermore it gives you a good idea how well the Government has been handling the situation.

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Not quite on the same page
[info]aerosblkjag
2008-05-01 03:23 am UTC (link)
Before going too far I feel inclined to type up a brief assessment of the situation, to add context and to make certain everyone is on the same page.

To be honest, I'm a few pages off (marginally within agreement) from the main post, although you seemed to clarify the parts that I'm in most disagreement with in your above reply.

First, we need to also recognize that we have a bubble in the price of many commodities (especially oil) that has helped increase fuel prices, so no matter what tweaks one does to the biofuel output, such tweaks will only marginally affect fuel prices. As commodities are being used as hedges against the falling dollar value this bubble won't break until the dollar stabilizes, then we will be treated with the spectacle watching all of that money ($250 billion which is in oil alone) flood out like rats abandoning a sinking ship. Exactly when this will happen, I have no idea.

As for the biofuel mess, using cellulosic technology would be wonderful, except we’ve been working on that since the 1920s when the U.S. had its first widely felt oil price spike. Our current methods for getting ethanol out of cellulose still requires much more energy input than what we would get out of it (using corn with our methods of farming just about breaks even in the energy balance when including fuel used for transportation, planting, harvesting, distilling, etc… which should tell you that it’s a government jobs program and is not a solution).

Finally, the idea of geoengineering (terraforming) is a great idea, but the current beliefs of people will absolutely not allow such a debate to take place outside science fiction discussion groups. Primarily, the idea of “natural balance” must be discredited before terraforming can be seen as acceptable. Ideas to suck carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere scare me far more than the most extreme projections of temperature increase given by the IPCC (and if familiar with WG1, wow, here’s an article quoting some of these same ‘scientists’ that admit that the models they used last year are garbage.

Ok… that’s probably enough heresy from me for the time being.

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Re: Not quite on the same page
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-01 06:28 am UTC (link)
Yes we have a bubble in the price of commodities, but even with that artificial inflation the, "real," price of those commodities is going up as well. If the bubble breaks soon it'll give us a good reprieve. However it demand keeps growing and supply doesn't, price will eventually outstrip whatever reprieve we might get when the oil bubble pops.

As for celluosic bio-fuel, a company in Illinois claimed a few months back that they discovered a way to use bacteria to break down any organic compound into ethanol for less than a dollar per gallon. This method seems to work on Cellulose materials as well, however it'll take many years to ramp up this production method to a level that would have any real effect on Ethanol production. They do seem to be pretty confident about it however, as they plan to have a production plant up and running within the next few years.

Even so, the technology is still too far off to help us with our current problems. Nor is it clear just how far up it can be scaled.

Yes, Geoengineering is a very compelling idea, but it's also an idea that contradicts the beliefs of many people. It's gained some ground in recent years out of fear that we may not be able to stop greenhouse emissions enough to, "stop climate change," however I don't expect there to be much movement on this front for quite some time.

Of course, we definitely need to improve our models and understanding before doing anything. When doing anything on a global scale, I think a little patience and caution is going to be warranted.

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Re: Not quite on the same page
[info]aerosblkjag
2008-05-02 12:50 am UTC (link)
[if] demand keeps growing and supply doesn't

I'm not too worried about this happening, even with the current demand, supply is recently slowly outstripping demand by 0.5%/annum. This is why oil has recently hit its highest reserve levels in a decade.

I hope that company has found "the solution" for cheap cellulosic ethanol. Stories like this come out every oil crisis; even if the data is good, the ability to ramp up the processes to industrial scales were unfeasible. One problem, even with the current corn process, is the massive supplies of pristine freshwater required. I hope that company isn't exaggerating their data... and that "under one dollar" isn't with collecting government subsidies at the same time. If nothing else, at a buck a gallon, one could have one heck of a party on a low budget with all of that moonshine ;3

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Re: Not quite on the same page
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-02 08:04 pm UTC (link)
It probably is with collecting Government subsidies, although that would still be a heck of an improvement over the current production costs. Seeing as the Ethanol subsidies currently pay about 51cents per gallon, even if this progress cost 99 cents a gallon, it'd still only cost $1.50 before subsidies.

Also I feel compelled to point out, that it's far easier to make ethanol from Sugar than grains, which is why tropical countries such as Brazil can produce Ethanol more cheaply than the United States.

I fear oil demand will eventually outstrip demand, but probably not within the next five years. Even then it won't be immediately catastrophic, but if America doesn't start doing some more domestic drilling we'll at the very least have to buy more from foreign producers like Saudi Arabia.

Incidentally, I'm basing that statement off of reports that the amount of oil we're able to pull out of the North Shore of Alaska per year is declining. If that holds up we'll have to drill more just to keep our currently production levels steady.

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A lengthy reply Part 1 of 3
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-14 01:30 am UTC (link)
I work as an Oilfield Specialty Chemical R&D Chemist. I have quite a few points of view from the standpoint of the industry on this whole mess with energy.

The trouble we have as the USA is that we elect these people that do not care about drilling here in the USA for Oil. In the Gulf of Mexico alone there is 80 billion barrels of oil, and 600 billion Cubic feet of gas. 80 billion barrels of oil is enough to fuel our current needs for about 65 years. The 600 billion cubit feet of gas would heat 160 MILLION homes for nearly 40 years!!!
There is a huge deposits of oil of the coast of California and Florida as well.
Currently we only drill for oil in 15% of the available coastlines which encircle our country. the other 85% is not allowed.

Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. called "ANWaR"
There is billions and billions of barrels of oil there too. 80 - 120 years if you go on varying estimates.
But again the watermelons will not allow for drilling there. The place we were are talking is not the same place they show on TV and in Public Service Announcements. On TV they show people this Green Tundra that is serene with moose and arctic foxes frolicking and so forth. That is in the regions where muskeg and this almost lichen like plant grows.
This is a pure PROPAGANDA being used by enviro-Nazi's to ram their communist views of no fossil fuels down our collective throats.
The Real place where all the oil is called the North Slope. A most inhospitable, backside of beyond, freezing and windy hellhole that no plant, creature nor human likes living.

Look up the North Slope sometime and tell me it isn't a hellhole. The Roughnecks that go up there are in such horrible conditions that oil companies have to pay king's ransoms to get people to work there. These guys go up and work for like 3-5 years on a 3 weeks on 1 week off rotational basis. Plane flights to and from the Slope are paid for, phone calls to home are paid for. These guys can come back in 3-5 years and put cash down on a house! It is such a dank foul hellhole no one wants to live there and the land is a wasteland if it weren't for the oil under it!

The second part of our problem is refineries. We have all these refineries in the USA but we do not have enough. Last time I heard, and this was during Hurricane Katrina when gas spiked in the aftermath, all of the US's refineries are running at 80%. When Katrina hit and knocked out a few they edged up closer to 90%. You cannot run one full tilt. If you do and something goes wrong, the dependency on that refinery is too painful to deal with in its absence. Furthermore portions of refineries need to be off-line in stages for repairs, cleaning and maintenance.

I have personally seen parts that come in from refineries. Crude oil is terribly hard on parts! They rust out and corrode to hell and it really is a wonder that components can work even marginally before they are taken off line. They clog up, they get messed up by the trash that is in crude oil that we do not want in machines, cars and trucks.

By having all these refineries run at such high production rates there is no room for maintenance and when a failure happens it is especially painful at the pump because the given supply of gasoline is diminished.

But no one wants to build new refineries. Anti Pollution laws are too strict and unreal to meet the demand for new refineries. Refineries take crap like Sulfur out of oil. That sulfur has to go somewhere. It cannot go into the cars. It screws up the components in cars. It can be refined to make matches, however we have such a glut for sulfur in this country that the match industry has enough sulphur to last until the second coming.

The problem is everyone complains about how much refineries pollute. We have all sorts of baffles and air handling systems on them now to bring down emissions and STILL these people will not allow us to build refineries!

No one likes the way they look. No one likes the way they sometimes smell. No one like the dangers of millions of gallons of petroleum that could explode at the drop of a hat and no one wants it around. It is a classic "Not In My Back Yard / NIMBY" scenario.

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A lengthy reply Part 2 of 3
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-14 01:33 am UTC (link)
And because other countries do not have enviro-Nazis who have utterly run amok and hijacked the US political landscape with Chicken Little like stories like Global Warming and CO2 emissions, it is cheaper for the US to buy it refined from over seas.

Oil companies have less haranguing and less to deal with by just paying more for it to be refined over seas and in other countries than by dealing with all the wackos here who would sell our country's internal security and energy independence in exchange for points of view about the environment they cannot even prove unequivocally

You know while I am on the note of the Environment and Climate I need to step on this one for a minute.

Our God is an Awesome God. No I am not singing a contemporary Christian song, there is no way to possibly fathom the many wonders which God is capable. Look at the difference of life just here on this Earth. Look at the stuff we have in the Solar System. How planets, moons and the Sun are all in perfect balance. Look at the weather system, the climate. We STILL cannot predict the weather accurately. We have thrown all of our best minds, technology and wits and mathematics at it and the weather guys on the news still get it wrong.
Or look at some of the vermin we have in this world.

Rats: Rats have helped kill about 1/3 of the world population of people in ages past. The Black Plague and the Bubonic Plague were spread by them. Rats are said to be little bags of poison because they are clever. They have adapted to mankind trying to kill them off. They take little nibbles of poison or food that they eat before they fully gorge on it. Some say it has developed an immunity to poisons for rats. We cannot kill these little suckers! We have thrown our best minds and poisons to that task.

Roaches: Roaches are nasty! It is theorized in New York alone there are 8 Cock Roaches to every human! We have developed poison after poison to kill them and try as me might, we continually fail. The maker of Combat roach bait trays has had to reformulate a dozen times because the roaches get resistive to the poisons in the trays. The Combat Max is the best one nowadays.

Viruses: We know what causes the cold. It is a microscopic parasite so small it can drill into your cells, hijack your cell's method of self copying to make new viruses to further the cycle again and again. We know what it looks like, what it does, how it does it and we are still powerless to stop it. Same is true for the AIDS virus and HIV. They even have "Cures" for them. The trouble is the cures are so hard on the body they can kill the patient. Most people that take current Anti-HIV Medication need Liver and Kidney transplants because of the Cancers that develop.

There are three things mankind has spent centuries to understand and try to kill so they will not kill us and we have utterly and miserably failed! I therefore do not think it is possible that be inadvertent action to destroy something as marvelous and complex as the climate system. Creation was set up by an intelligence that far exceeds us. Ours is infinitesimal by comparison. And it is rather presumptive and quite frankly I think it borders on blasphemous to suggest that we are capable of destroying our climate by living our lives!

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A lengthy reply Part 3 of 3
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-14 01:34 am UTC (link)
Do you honestly think that God, with all the wonders he has created on this planet, with wonders I cannot delve into now and with all the wonders we as humans are only now beginning to understand would make an environment which is so fragile that using gasoline and burning wood, charcoal and gas would make us ruin what he set up?

I hope your answer is no. I am sure your answer is no. You guys are smart. It is like the bumper sticker I have seen going around I think, therefore I'm Republican / Conservative. (I have seen variants.)

God has set up the Climate and environment to be self correcting. These climate models do not even take into account the role of precipation on the effect of cooling the climate and atmosphere. A point I was made aware of from Limbaugh when he had Professor Roy Spencer on his show. I have had some time to look him up. He is a head professor in the University of Alabama's Climatology college. He says all these models are foolhearty because they do not take into account the role of precipitation and atmospheric moisture.

So if we want to continue to debate Global Warming and man's impact and assume those lefties are correct for a few minutes let's look at other possible causes for climate heating and cooling. A major shift in global mean temperatures happens on 11 year cycles. 11 Year cycles are important because of Sun activity. The Sun emits a magnetic force like there Earth. Its force is far stronger of course but because the Sun is a huge ball of basically an indescribably large Hydrogen bomb exploding, it is almost fluid-like. Its equator spins at a different rate than its poles. This causes the magnetic field of the Sun to always stretch and change. It stretches out over long periods of time and eventually these fields break, like if they were a rubber band spanned over and reaching the point when it snaps.. When they break, about every 11 years, there is a huge spike in the number of Sunspots, solar flares and the mean global temperatures on Earth heat up significantly. Summers are hotter, rain is lower and droughts hit.

This Global Warming and Lack of Getting Oil drilled in the USA is the work of political Propagandist masterminds. Truth is that people who oppose it are not scientific. And because so few people in the US are not interested in Science these propagandists can get away with murder because no one will stand up and challenge them. Not enough people are interested in science and look this stuff up for themselves. They therefore pray upon misinformation and insult your intelligence by treating you as if you are stupid!

People think that the polar ice caps will melt and flood the Earth. We have been told this right? Well I ask you to do something for me. Get a glass, a permanent marker, about 4 cubes of ice and partially fill the glass. Put the ice cubes in and pmark the water level with a permanent marker. Then go away for about three hours and look at the glass. Hoefully all the ice melts and you will have your answer. The water level doesn't rise. It stays the same! This is a 3rd grade experiment that is done in science class. They are LYING about that! What else are they lying about?

Others believe that it is better to use up the foreign world's oil first, saving ours for a rainy day, like when foreign sources of oil run out. And then we can set the prices and gain all our money back. That is a stupid conclusion because these people that are in the middle East will not be peaceful when they want oil. They have hijacked three planes, bombed the USS Cole and Tried to blow up WTC once, what makes the people who want to "Save" the oil think they are going to sit idly by and let us rape them at the pump? They will be over here trying to skin us alive for it!

Lastly, we come to another press manufactured misconception: The oil we get in the US only about 20% comes from the Middle East and OPEC. The rest comes from the US, Canada (about 50%) Russia (about 25%) And other places like South American and Latin America (5%)

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Re: A lengthy reply Part 3 of 3
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-14 02:33 am UTC (link)
I do agree with you overall. I've looked at the rational for global warming, and it makes a whole lot of assumptions that are dubious at best. I also agree that anti-pollution laws in America are badly set up.

That being said though, I do advocate cleaning our technology up and being more efficient. Though that's largely because I think concepts like electric cars are neat. I will however admit that, those hazes you see over big industrial centers like Salt Lake City, do make me want to use cleaner tech as well.

I do support there being an ethanol industry, but only if it's going to be produced using Cellulose or sugar. I support it because theoretically ethanol can offset about 10% of America's oil consumption, and anything else we produce over than can be exported.

I also support domestic drilling and building new refineries. I think both will happen sooner than people think though. The Bakken formation looks very promising for starters, and I don't think the federal government can really prevent people from drilling there.

Better mileage on cars would also help. Though, even if we introduced plug-in-hybrids, it'd take years for those cars to substantially lower oil consumption.

Still, the most immediate thing we could do to lower the price of oil some, is to give speculators reason to believe that the price will come down. So announcing new drilling and such should have some effect on price even before new sites go online.

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Interesting, a reply part 1
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-14 04:07 am UTC (link)
Well the big problem with Ethanol is how it is made. It takes more energy to manufacture a given quantity of ethanol than the quantity can give back.

The future is not ethanol. I think butanol is a much better energy source. It can be made using the wastes materials like grass clippings, wood pulp, bark from trees and so forth and exposing it to enzyme and microbe action.

The best part is this. And Now we we delve into a little bit of chemistry here.

Ethanol + Oxygen + Heat ----------> CO2 + H2O + Energy
2 C2H5OH + 7 O2 + Heat --------------> 4 CO2 + 6 H2O + Energy

Gasoline + Oxygen + heat -----------> CO2 + H2O + Energy
(Call it Octane, the active ingredient...In fact is is 2, 2, 4 Trimethyl-Pentane or sometimes called "Isooctane")

2 C8H18 + 25 O2 + Heat --------------> 16 CO2 + 18 H2O + Energy
One Mole of Octane provides so much more heat energy because if you remember your Enthalpy equations the Delta H of the reaction is equal to the Enthalpy of chemical bonds formed minus the Enthalpy of chemical bonds broken.
In fact this ethanol because of its density relative to Octane will actually give a fairly decent Enthalpy when compared to Octane. It takes 1.7 Gallons of Ethanol to equal 1 gallon of gas, so it will cause you to have worse milage. The E-85 Fuel Blend is another beast entirely.

Butanol which an alcohol of 4 carbons actually has an Enthalpy and energy exchange rate much closer to Octane in gasoline. When you consider the relative density and performance in the fuel delivery system. It is 1.1 to 1 instead of 1.7 to 1. The added thing about Butanol is that it is mildly lubricating and therefore it will not dissolve and ruin rubber and plastic components in the fuel delivery system. Raw Ethanol ruins seals, gaskets, rubber and plastic components in fuel injectors and the like. It is one reason why 15% of gasoline is added. This small portion of gasoline acts as a lubricant for engine parts. The other reason is that Ethanol is taxed as hard liquor and to denature it with gasoline makes the producers and transporters of it skirt that law.

Butanol + Oxygen + Heat ------------> CO2 + H2O + Energy
2 C4H9OH + 13 O2 + Heat --------------> 8 CO2 + 10 H2O + Energy


Electric Cars are a damned Joke and so are Hybrids.

Electric Cars:
You plug this car into the wall for 10 hours and get like 2 hours out of it before it is dead flat. (Granted Two hours with the electric motor running non stop.) It is great for driving while in town but you are hosed if you are driving to another town over 2 hours away. Lead Acid Batteries, which are the best storage medium for electric power are very heavy, cost lots of money to produce and pollute far worse than any car could. In fact a statistic I read in an Fuels Journal says that both Electric Cars and Hybrids which have to use Lead Acid Batteries would have to run for over 5 years for the pollutants used to create their batteries were finally canceled out by the lowered emissions. And then there is the toxic side effects of what the hell to do with all these batteries once they are no good. Like The batteries used to start the Internal Combustion engine, they wear out.

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interesting, a reply part 2.
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-14 04:07 am UTC (link)
Hybrid Cars are even worse boondoggle. We are using something to get less efficent energy in order to get better mileage. Again these are dynamite in the city, but on the highway these fall flat!

With a conventional engine comes the following power train:
Engine
Transmission
Driveshaft
Differential
Wheels

With a Hybrid is the following:
Engine
Generator
Electric Leads to Battery and Motor
Electric Motor
Transmission
Driveshaft
Differential
Wheels

Each step in that process introduces a new level of resistance. With fewer steps there is less energy dissapated as wasted heat, noises, wear and tear.

The Average race car tuned Engine, the best there is, is 20% power efficiency. That means that 20% of the heat energy created by combustion of gasoline is actually used to do the mechanical work of propelling the car. The rest is lost in heat wasted and exiting the tailpipe, heat built up from resistance in the engine, transmission, all the components of the drive train.

The Average Hybrid uses an Engine coupled with an Electric Generator and Motor. The average Electric Motor has about 90% power efficiency. The Electric Generator is about the same. So even if we have a race car tuned engine in this hybrid we are using only 20% of the enrgy derived from cubustion, that in turn goes into a generator whichj converts 90% so we are left with a net of 18% Then into a battery and Leads and into a motor. (We'll leave Wire resistance out of this ciphering) So the generator to moter gives a 16.2% Net Efficency. We haven't discussed the power losses in transmissions, differentials and tires yet.

According to stuff I have seen working in a garage an engine rated with a dynomometer can be installed into a car and the entire drive train tested and it loses about 30% of its horsepower.

And the last problem, a better mileage on cars. I am not against mileage and efficiency but I should not have to sacrifice size, style and most importantly SAFETY for better mileage. Car makers cannot keep up with demands and in the effort to do so they have reduced the size of cars. (I cannot get into most compact cars. I have to drive a pickup in order to drive a vehicle on a long trip.) And They have reduced weight. The best way to do this is to make cars out of tin foil that bends when you look at it wrong or drop a feather on it and crumples like a beer can in a wreck! These small cars are turning our freeways into a meat grinder of highway deaths because they do not regulate the thickness of metal and other safety equipment. Everytime the bar is raised too fast the crash test ratings plummet.

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I am not attacking you
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-14 04:20 am UTC (link)
I am not attacking you. I am attacking some of the media stuff being told and what goes for common knowledge.

There is nothing wrong with higher pollution standards. I am not against that and for polluting. I am against these tree hugging slobs up in ANWaR preventing the drilling that goes on and these neo-hippies that will not let oil companies build new refineries. If they don't want the oil, I want to see them give up driving, plastic and well basically everything they have that isn't handmade by them because all of our goods and everything we have has had oil involved in its process.
We have to transport stuff with oil. We make stuff with oil. It is necessary and life would be miserable and short without oil.
There are chemists out there working on the problems of pollution. People ought to get behind them and help them out. But that is another problem here. We love to make money. Chemists are not rich in terms of money. The average chemist makes less than the average investor or investment banker. Thus there is a deficit in the number of scientists in the USA. We have to get scientists from other countries to fill in the gap.

The Bakken Oil field is something I hope will give us much more oil. With advances in directional drilling in the last ten years that will help.

The price of oil is our own doing. We do not want to drill and solve it. The only way we are going to solve the problem is by getting some of these clowns out of Senate and the House and get people that are energy conscious. The President will help too, but really the pivotal role is in the off presidential elections.

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Re: I am not attacking you
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-14 05:29 am UTC (link)
Oh, I didn't think you were. I was merely verifying my own positions.

You're right that we need to drill more, and we need to do away with this ultra strict environmentalist mantra that's infected Washington. Just to be contrarian though, the price of oil could conceivably come down a lot without a single new drilling sight or refinery coming online. There's a growing school of thought among economists that the oil market is a bubble, propped up by speculation, and that the actual price of oil is somewhere around 70-80 dollars a barrel. So if that bubble burst, the price would come down to that point relatively quickly.

Mind you, it's unlikely that it would burst for no reason. A definite sign that the price of oil will go down would help, and more domestic drilling would do that.

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Re: I am not attacking you
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-14 05:59 am UTC (link)
oh, and just a few minor points.

You're describing Electric Cars using current mass-produced battery types. Researchers are certain they'll eventually be able to get something that charges in minutes and has a range comparable to gas powered vehicles.

Most hybrids on the market not aren't anywhere near as efficient as they potentially could be. Normal hybrids can probably get another 10mpg squeezed out of them, and performance can definitely be improved as well. Then there are plugin hybrids, these are essentially electric cars that use fossil fuels and a flywheel to take the strain off the battery. You charge them up, put fuel in them, and the fuel is burned off slowly to recharge the battery as you drive. Excess energy from this process and braking and such, is sent to the fly-wheel, where it's stored until the energy is needed the most, at which point it's once again tapped to charge the battery.

Experimental cars using this method, have been able to squeeze out mileage roughly equivalent to 400mpg. Though that was using much heavier batteries than are typically available in automobiles, and this process may result in batteries dying faster since they're being recharged so often.

Ethanol can also be made using grass clippings. It's called cellulosic ethanol. The process is more expensive because it's very new, however, given five to ten years it should become fairly competitive.

Butanol is more difficult to produce in quantity than ethanol. Though making cellulosic ethanol more affordable goes a long way towards making butanol more practical as well.

Really, none of this is an answer, "right now." However, given a few more years of refining and innovation and these technologies can go a long way towards freeing up fossil fuels for industrial and heating use.

The latter is really important to me. I was born in Alaska, and my relatives tell me there's a huge exodus from the state, because the cost of heating has grown that nobody can afford it.

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Re: I am not attacking you
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-15 02:50 am UTC (link)
Even the Bakken Oil field is not an answer "Right Now." Nor is drilling in "ANWaR" The stages of planning and executing will take at least 2 years for that oil to hit our gas pumps. It could, in fact, take up to 5 years by varying methods.
The exploration, surveying and all the work to actually get everything going is a lengthy process.

The use of corn to make ethanol is just plain stupid! We are not growing it to eat, we are growing it to burn. Other countries are going to have terrible times with starvation and famine because the almost instant profit of using grains to make ethanol is easy and more profitable than using it for food.

The price of corn has nearly doubled in price per bushel. The price of other grains are rising too because Farmers are growing corn for ethanol. Milk has risen sharply in recent months. It is near $5.00 for a gallon. It wasn't too long ago that you could get a gallon for $2.50 and $3.00 was expensive. Again, it is easier to produce fuel than it is to feed cattle and get them to produce milk, so a problem of rising fuel costs has taken an already bad problem of rising food costs (With increase in price of transportation) and made it worse by making corn, a grain that feeds millions and millions of people worldwide, a fuel alternative. It makes more money for the farmer to grow more corn and less cattle.
Conspiracy theorists say it is persons wanting to take control are exercising a form of genocide through starvation and lack of food to go around in countries who need grains but are being shafted because the corn bred ethanol fad.
Conspiracies aside, this could lead to a really costly problem down the road. One far worse than just fuel problems. Armed rebellions and uprisings happen in famine and starvation.

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I wanted to touch upon Hydrogen fuel cells / electric cars
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-15 03:13 am UTC (link)
I also wanted to say I am glad you didn't think I was attacking. These dern replies are only 4,300 characters and makes it hard for me to say what I want to say.

Electric Cars with Batteries / Hydrogen Fuel Cells:
These are a neat concept but they are that, a concept. It would be nice to have something that works like that a practical matter. The biggest problem is that Hydrogen, and what I mean by Hydrogen is really Protons, are so corrosive to anything known to man. The other thing is resistance. Electrical resistance in the leads is another HUGE hurdle to overcome. This is achieved with Superconductors. The only problem with that is they are not room temperature yet.
I worked for the University of Houston's Texas Center for Superconductivity and Advanced Materials Lab. Ever since Dr. Paul Chu discovered the first HTS (High Temperature Superconductor) there has been a race to make them higher temperature. The first Superconductors had to be cooled with liquid helium. It is 4 degrees Kelvin ( minue 453 Fahrenheit) and needs quite a bit of care. The pressures of helium boiling can rupture even the stoutest containers. Dr. Chu discovered a way to make Superconductors that could use Liquid Nitrogen instead. These are called "High Temperature Superconductors" but that is only a relative term. Liquid Nitrogen boils at 78 Kelvin (minus 319 Fahrenheit.)
In 1987 with the discovery of YBCO 123 HTS's The race has been on. YtBa2Cu3O7 (Yttrium Barium Copper Oxide) was discovered in 1987 and others have followed. Now there are superconductors that run at warmer temperatures but need massive pressures on them and are not reliable. The YBCO HTS's have found their use in conjunction with compact cyro units in cell phone towers among other places.

But work at UH is not limited to that. It has been theorized that Metal oxides that can be made to conduct electricity will be surprisingly resistive to corrosion. It is hoped that an Alkaline Earth Metal Oxide can be found to use as terminals that will not corrode in batteries and fuel cells. This was part of my research at the university before my graduation.

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Re: I wanted to touch upon Hydrogen fuel cells / electric cars
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-15 06:24 am UTC (link)
Actually, fuel cells don't need to be made with hydrogen, ethanol fuel cells have also been shown to be fairly efficient, and given that butanol is similar and has a higher energy density, I would imagine those would be even more so.

Granted, experimental Ethanol fuel cells have only gotten about 40volts, and that's not really enough to run a high performance vehicle. However, if you combined them with a good battery, I think Butanol fuel cells would make a very efficient range-extender for electrical cars. Just put a flywheel in-between the cell and battery to capture the energy until it's time to start recharging certain partitions of the battery, and you should be able to go a lot longer before having to plug the car back in.

Plus, butanol/ethanol, transport a heck of a whole lot easier than hydrogen.

As for superconductors. While not a super-conductor, room temperature carbon-nanotubes conduct electricity roughly 200 times as well as copper does. Cool it a little and it becomes an actual super conductor, however for a car, I don't think you'd really NEED the extra conductivity.

Granted, we're still a little ways off until we can manufacture carbon nanotubes at a quantity and price that makes them usable for consumer goods. However the potential applications are so immense, that it's hard to imagine that all the parties researching it won't come up with something. I mean, they've being given a LOT of incentive to find a way to make it work.

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Re: I wanted to touch upon Hydrogen fuel cells / electric cars
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-16 12:29 am UTC (link)
No you don't need superconductors in the car itself but the electrodes in the cells need to be. Otherwise they heat up and the dissipation to electric resistance is only going to hurt efficiency.

The next best place for a superconductor is in the motor though. Electromagnets made of superconductor wire are far better than any electromagnet currently used. Those 40 Volt butanol fuel cells could actually propel a car with decent power if the magnets in the motor are superconducting. This says nothing for the enormous thrust and power it would give a more conventional battery and motor.

And with the increased power of the superconducting magnets comes incredible control. Superconducting magnets are used in NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) Spectrometer (A device which is used by chemists to find out the chemical structure of molecules. It emits a magnetic pulse and the atoms with odd numbers of protons in their nuclei spin on an axis.) These have gotten better and better. Frequencies of 900 MegaHertz are industry standard. This is precision control.
The doctor uses a similar device when you have an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Image) On the word "Nuclear," which refers to the nuclei in atoms of your cells, has been conveniently removede to keep people from overreacting and freaking out thinking it is radioactive.

The advancement of superconductors and capacitance gels and batteries that are much lighter weight are the only future for electric cars.

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Re: I wanted to touch upon Hydrogen fuel cells / electric cars
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-16 05:23 am UTC (link)
well, yes and no. I am assuming super conductive materials in a fuel cell would greatly improve efficiency, but from what I've read that, 40volt figure was produced using a fuel cell without any precious metals or superconductors.

Unfortunately, while being able to mass produce carbon-nanotubes would greatly increase the availability of low-temp superconductors, at room temperature they're nothing more than efficient conductors. *Really really durable conductors, but still just conductors.* It'll probably be awhile yet before we have a mass-produced room temp superconductor, so we shouldn't bank on their being a breakthrough too soon.

Thankfully, we really don't need to wait for those technologies to really make headway in things like, plug-in electrics. Sure they won't be as efficient as they could be, but we've still had some promising real world results. If they work for our needs, even at less than peak efficiency, then there's no reason not to start using them. As things like room-temp super conductors become available, we can always start utilizing that technology then.

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Re: I wanted to touch upon Hydrogen fuel cells / electric cars
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-18 04:42 pm UTC (link)
Right after my graduation from University I was sent on numerous interviews. It was Summer of 2005 and all those from Escaping Hurricane Katrina and the aftermath also came to Texas so all in all I went on about 20 different job interviews.

One such place was called Carbon Nano-technologies Inc. They specialized in the synthesis of "Bucky balls" or Buckminster Fullerenes. So named by Professor Smalley at Rice University when he discovered them in the early 1980's. The molecular structure of the compounds resemble the Geodesic Domes designed by Architect Buckminster Fuller back in the 1960's.
This laboratory even had Professor Smalley's very own reactor in their pilot plant.

Creating nanaotubes and "bucky-balls" is not an easy task. It takes many, many controls and highly skilled personnel to create them. Exact temperatures, pressures, electric currents, exacting standards on starting materials, exact weights..no room for error in any part of the process. I was told that batch success rate was a lot better than in the days of the research but it was still rather bad, like 30% To go from a small reactor to a medium reactor introduces new and unseen factors. Then to go from the medium reactor (Which are in the pilot plant) to a full scale / production reactor is even more tricks and unseen issues.

While they would be the most awesome conductors, realistically speaking they would be horrendously expensive to produce. A Wire made of them would be more expensive than wire made of gold that was equal weight. And it would need automation because the poly-aromatic hydrocarbons (Starting materials) that are needed for the synthesis of fullerenes and nano tubes are carcinogenic. The exhaust emitted in the process of fullerenes is also not too good to have pumped out into the atmosphere either.

Nanotubes are neat. Really neat, but I think in all honesty their best use will be in the use of nano-bots that can be used to repair cells at the cellular and molecular level.

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Re: I wanted to touch upon Hydrogen fuel cells / electric cars
[info]wolvenone
2008-05-18 06:15 pm UTC (link)
while you are correct that they're difficult to make, reportedly they are getting cheaper, supposedly because they're getting better at it, and also finding multiple ways of creating them.

It will probably takes years to really, refine their processes to the point where carbon-nanotubes are cheap enough to use in consumer products. Though, again, from what I've read there's a huge incentive to do so. They think the things may have as big an impact as transistors, and the first company to come up with a patented process to make them relatively cheaply, is going to make billions.

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Re: I am not attacking you
[info]skylarhusky
2008-05-15 02:37 am UTC (link)
Yes the Oil Bubble Bursting will mean a real slow down in business where I work. I am not doing as much R&D as I once was because Oil topped the $100.00 per bbl mark. Our business is going like gang busters because domestic wells that were once thought unprofitable to extract oil suddenly are. We are all up to our necks in work to help the Filed guys with their problems. Typically business slows down in the end of the year. This year that was not the case. The 100.00 mark made the work come in in piles to try and get it in at the last minute before the end of the fiscal year. We worked full tilt up to December 31st.

The price of oil being high is also related to one more thing. ELECTION YEAR. Every Election Year I can remember, since I was a pup, the price of gas spikes for awhile right before electing a new president. It happened in 2000 for definite sure. It was most felt then by me because I had began driving in 1997. Gas was $0.89 cents and rose SHARPLY $1.50 almost over night. The price of over a dollar was almost outrageous! My friends and family were all carrying on about it. There were plans to boycott and so forth.

Then again in 2004. From around $1.75 to $2.25. I have the records.
Then Katrina...I remember driving by the same gas station two and three times per day and the price changing three times per day! You could almost set a clock to it!

I keep diaries on my vehicles of fill ups, repairs, tire rotations, oil changes etc. It helps to keep a running tab of mileage and maintenance schedules. I have owned my Dodge Ram 1500 for long enough to remember filling its 24 gallon fuel tank for less than $20.00. In fact, I could fill it and have enough money leftover to buy a "Super Slurpie" (At Circle K) or a Route 44 Coke (At Phillips 66.) This was back in like 1999 or so. This was also when Randall's was the only grocery store with gas stations, except for Sam's and you could get up to 15 cents off per gallon on certain days. Safeway put the kibosh on that. You now have to spend $50.00 to 100.00 dollars to get one fill up at only 10 cents off.

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