jessthov2001 ([info]jessthov2001) wrote in [info]clickertraining,
@ 2008-11-09 22:34:00
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Untraining the Clicker
My dogs both know what the clicker is. This poses a couple problems. I can't work with them at the same time, and they sound like they are being killed if one is being worked with and not the other.

So I bought a clicker+. It has 4 different sounds you can use. I want to use the Ping with Max, and then continue to use the iClick with Bindi.

So I need to get Max to realize that the traditional click, isn't his sound. So I "charged up" the Ping with him and have been using that. I will also click/treat Bindi and ignore Max, then I'll ping/treat Max and ignore Bindi.

The only other idea I've got is to put Bindi outside and let the girls go town with clickers, but that would probably be pretty frustrating for Max.

The easiest solution would be to train two completely different sounds, giving each dog a new one. But then I run into the problem when working together that I'd forget which click the clicker+ was on, and click the wrong dog at the wrong time. It does switch pretty easily between two sounds though.

Is this even possible? or is just going to cause so much confusion for Max that I should forget it and buy a second Clicker+? That's the only way two completely new sounds would work for me. Timing is still something I'm working on, and I don't want to make it worse by fumbling with the side switch to get the right tone. With two I could have one in each hand.

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[info]rumorofrain
2008-11-10 03:47 pm UTC (link)
What is your reason for wanting to have separate bridges for each dog? What does each dog do when you click/treat the other? Is it causing problems for you or for the animals?

I train both of my cats and both of my parrots with the same clicker, and it doesn't confuse any of them. They can tell who the click was for by who gets the treat afterward.

Yes, the cats will come running in when I am clicking with the birds, but they simply sit and watch and hope it will be their turn next. ;)

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[info]rumorofrain
2008-11-10 03:48 pm UTC (link)
If you really do want to "un-train" the click as a bridging stimulus, I'd suggest simply substituting in an alternate bridge sound and letting the click extinguish on its own.

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[info]jessthov2001
2008-11-10 10:03 pm UTC (link)
The reason is so I can work with them at the same time. If Bindi is doing a nice behavior and I want to click that, but Max is doing a behavior I don't want at the same time, I don't want to "capture" Max's behavior. And if he's clicked even with no treat he's likely to repeat it.

Right now Bindi just looks at Max if he's getting the treat after the ping and the same with Max.

They also don't just sit politely and wait their turn during one on ones. If the sounds aer different for each dog I think this will lessen the OMG You're not working with me reaction.

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[info]waldoor
2008-11-11 01:06 am UTC (link)
"They also don't just sit politely and wait their turn during one on ones."

Could you tether one dog close by while you work with the other? That way they are still in sight and not flipping out, but you can keep them separate enough to get a good training session in with each dog. I did this with my dog who had separation anxiety and it worked quite well. If the tethered dog starts barking and carrying on, turn your back and completely ignore it. Continue working with the dog your are training as if the barking dog doesn't exist. When the tethered dog does be quite and settle down, cookies and praise are in order. Eventually they will learn that only quiet calm behavior will get them the reward they are looking for. Make sense?

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[info]rumorofrain
2008-11-12 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Sorry for the delayed reply; I didn't see your reply because it didn't get posted under my comment!

You can work with both animals simultaneously even if they don't sit and wait their turn. In fact, you can use their eagerness to your advantage. If I'm working on teaching them the same behavior, I train my two parrots simultaneously using the same clicker. Likewise with my two cats. Neither pair has ever had a problem figuring out which clicks were for which animal: the one who gets the treat afterward is the one who earned the click.

And if he's clicked even with no treat he's likely to repeat it.

A click by itself isn't a reinforcer, so if an animal hears a click and doesn't get a reinforcer afterwards, it's not going to increase the rate of that behavior over the long-term. The animal might repeat it for a little while to see if it gets more clicks that do lead to treats, but the behavior will eventually extinguish itself.

I'm not saying that you should have both dogs present during every training session, of course. If you want to work with one dog on some shaping or fine-tuning of a behavior, it's best to keep the other dog elsewhere. For instance, when I'm working on shaping a complex behavior with my caique parrot Daedalus, I put Icarus in his cage so he doesn't distract her.

When I am training both animals to do the same behavior, though, I find it very helpful to have them both present. They really compete for the treats, so if they see the other one being reinforced for something they will often copy the behavior.

They also don't just sit politely and wait their turn during one on ones.

If one dog is mugging you for treats while you're working with the other, you might want to do some work on "doggy zen" and sit/stays and down/stays before moving on to more complex behaviors.

Doggy zen is similar to what [info]waldoor described: Completely ignore the dog while it's mugging you for treats, but when it backs off or sits, click and treat. Teach the dogs that sitting nicely and making eye contact with you gets treats, while mugging gets them nothing. I do this with my cats, and it's worked really well.

If the sounds aer different for each dog I think this will lessen the OMG You're not working with me reaction.

What exactly is the "OMG you're not working with me reaction"? What specific behaviors do they exhibit? Is this happening when you ARE working with both dogs simultaneously, or only if you're doing a session with one dog while the other is present in the room? What happens if you ignore the reaction behaviors?

Here is a ClickerTraining.com blog post about training multiple animals at the same time: Training in the Multi-Animal Household

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[info]abserdman
2009-03-06 11:26 pm UTC (link)
Where did you get your clicker+ from? Was it a website or in a shop?

I'd like to get one so I can work with my dog and rabbits in the same room (I'm like you, I think different sounds would be easier) and can't find one, or anything similar, anywhere. I'm in the UK so a website that posts here would be amazing!

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[info]jessthov2001
2009-03-07 12:22 am UTC (link)
I got it from Karen Pryor's online shop http://www.clickertraining.com

I really like it, very easy to program which two sounds you want it use, raised button, and you can wear it like a ring. It runs about $15 USD, but it was worth it.

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[info]abserdman
2009-03-07 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Ah! It's unavailable at the moment!

*sigh* Will have to carry on shutting doggy away when working with bunny then.

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[info]jessthov2001
2009-03-07 04:11 pm UTC (link)
You can try here http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1195&ParentCat=57

I've seen them a few other places as well. But I can't wait for the new and improved version.

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