classicshorts: Discussion: The Pit and the Pendulum

brush up on your Shakespeare (

secretshorts) wrote in

classicshorts,
@ 2008-02-06 19:49:00

Current mood:	excited
Entry tags:	author: edgar allan poe

Discussion: The Pit and the Pendulum
Hope everyone enjoyed reading The Pit and the Pendulum by Edgar Allan Poe this week -- now it's time to discuss!

This will be a very free-form discussion, so you're welcome to comment on any aspect of the story that you like. I'll just throw out a few notes and comments to get us started.

First, here's the translation of the Latin epigraph at the beginning of the story: "Here the impious clamor of the torturers, insatiate, fed long its rage for innocent blood. Now happy is the land, destroyed the pit of horror; and where grim death stalked, life and health are revealed."

According to a footnote in my copy of the story, the Jacobin Club was "a society of French revolutionists who, with Robespierre as leader, were in power during the Reign of Terror." (That sends me right back to my high school history class, lol. If anyone remembers any historical background on the French Revolution, please feel free to share.)

What strikes me about this story is the way the horror builds and builds and builds. Even when it seems things can't get any worse, they suddenly do. And then, the miraculous ending. How do you read that ending? Does it work for you? Can we even trust that it happened?

Please share your thoughts!

(Post a new comment)

pendulumchanges
2008-02-07 12:56 am UTC (link)

I've read this story at least ten times (that's a conservative estimate), but it just doesn't get old for me. I love it more every time I read it!

The first time I read The Pit and the Pendulum was in 9th grade. It was an assignment for my English class. I remember looking at how long it was and deciding I'd just sit down and read it all in one go. I got completely sucked in and couldn't have put it down even if I'd been planning to. When I got to the end I just sat there, completely thrilled… stunned… excited… in love with this story.

Reading it today left me feeling the exact same way :)

The biggest difference between the first time I read this and this most recent time - I understood everything I read today and I know back then much of the story was beyond my reach. Poe's style is unique. The vocabulary is advanced. I wasn't familiar with the history. I know I didn't appreciate every word back then, but I savor each and every one now.

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	secretsolitaire 2008-02-07 01:01 am UTC (link)
	I smiled at what you said about the vocabulary -- I actually had to look up the word "surcingle" today when I was reading. I love to learn new words! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	pendulumchanges 2008-02-07 01:08 am UTC (link)
	I know I've looked up dozens of words from this story over the years, but with all the rereading they've all finally made it into my memory bank, so no need for a dictionary today :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

flashyshorts
2008-02-07 10:15 am UTC (link)

I was almost maimed once because of a surcingle. I was horseback riding and the saddle wasn't cinched tight enough. Damn horse took off at a gallop on a paved road and the saddle was sliding sideways and I was hanging on for dear life, thighs clamped, hugging the horse around the neck. Another rider saw me and yelled, "don't pull the reins!". I didn't know why, but I wasn't going to pull the reins because that would have meant letting go! I found out later that the horse might have lost his footing on the smooth cement because of his metal shoes and we would have gone down together.

I had to look up surcingle too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	secretsolitaire 2008-02-07 11:26 pm UTC (link)
	Yikes, what a story! Do you still ride? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	flashyshorts 2008-02-10 10:09 pm UTC (link)
	No. That wasn't the last ride, though. It took being thrown and bitten for me to finally say, enough is enough! (Reply to this) (Parent)

flashyshorts
2008-02-07 10:00 am UTC (link)

I don't remember ever reading this, but I have to think that I must have at some point.

Before I read it tonight, I had an idea that the whole thing took place in a narrow well with the pendulum descending from start to finish and I was thrilled to find that there was so much going on!

I didn't think I was going to be horrified but this part really got me:

Shaking in every limb, I groped my way back to the wall -- resolving there to perish rather than risk the terrors of the wells, of which my imagination now pictured many in various positions around the dungeon.

The idea of an utterly dark room riddled with depthless holes is just chilling.

As for the Spanish Inquisition, I knew next to nothing about it before tonight so I spent quite a while reading about it. That was an added bonus. Not only have I read and thought hard about one of the classic short stories, I also know more history than I did yesterday. It was a good day.:)

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pendulumchanges
2008-02-07 12:57 am UTC (link)

Thanks again for picking this story especially for me! *hugs*

A note on my username,

pendulumchanges…

I came up with the name when I created my LJ when I was going through a rough time and needed a place to get my thoughts together. It's a little reminder to myself that you never know what the future holds, my personal mantra since I was 16.

The "pendulum" part comes, of course, from my favorite short story, The Pit and The Pendulum :) To me, the moral of this story is: Never. Give. Up. No matter how awful things seem just keep fighting, hold out to the very last second, don't give up… because your salvation might be just around the corner.

The "changes" part comes from episode 205 of Queer as Folk. Deb says to Justin, "All you can do at a time like this is just hang on until the scenery changes." Things might suck, but just do your best to get through and know that things will get better eventually.

pendulum (don't ever give up) + changes (don't lose hope) = pendulumchanges (a daily reminder to myself, you never know what the future holds)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	secretsolitaire 2008-02-07 11:28 pm UTC (link)
	I remember reading this on your IJ a while back -- so cool. :-) And you are very welcome. It's been nice having a bit of an "expert" on this story to help us along here! (Reply to this) (Parent)

pendulumchanges
2008-02-07 01:05 am UTC (link)

the miraculous ending. How do you read that ending? Does it work for you? Can we even trust that it happened?

Oh interesting. I never considered the possibility that the ending might just be another dream or fit... or wish. I don't find any hints that it isn't real though. Throughout the story the narrator is looking back and reflecting on these events and in the very first paragraph he even says/writes:

I saw the lips of the black-robed judges. They appeared to me white - whiter than the sheet upon which I trace these words - and thin even to grotesqueness

This implies that he (the narrator) did actually make it out of the dungeon and was able to tell his story himself.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

secretsolitaire
2008-02-07 01:19 am UTC (link)

I think you're probably right, given the line you cited and also the part a little later when he's talking about his first swooning fit:

Amid frequent and thoughtful endeavours to remember, amid earnest struggles to regather some token of the state of seeming nothingness into which my soul had lapsed, there have been moments when I have dreamed of success; there have been brief, very brief periods when I have conjured up remembrances which the lucid reason of a later epoch assures me could have had reference only to that condition of seeming unconsciousness.

This part reads to me as though he's looking back on this particular swoon not from the immediate future (ie when he wakes up in the cell) but from a more distant, more "lucid" time in his life.

Also, you could read this part as foreshadowing for the hopeful ending:

What of it there remained I will not attempt to define, or even to describe; yet all was not lost. In the deepest slumber -- no! In delirium -- no! In a swoon -- no! In death -- no! Even in the grave all was not lost.

So yes, I agree that the happy ending is most likely what he intended, but I threw that question out there because it did occur to me...and because it didn't seem completely outside the realm of possibility, given the narrator's state of mind. I find it an interesting thing to think about.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	testdog65 2008-02-07 02:33 am UTC (link)
	I actually wondered about that, too. I agree with what pendulumchanges said that we see clues that he really did survive. But, there's something also about the way he presents the "return to consciousness" descriptions that makes me stop and think about dreams, imagination, what's real and what's not. ~Ellen (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

secretsolitaire
2008-02-07 03:32 am UTC (link)

Yes, exactly. The story is told by an unreliable narrator, who by his own admission is being driven half mad by his circumstances (to me the mental delirium he's in is one of the most horrifying and disturbing aspects of this fic). So I don't think it's out of line to question what the narrator is telling us.

And that part I quoted to

pendulumchanges above could actually be read in a different way, particularly if you add the next sentence:

What of it there remained I will not attempt to define, or even to describe; yet all was not lost. In the deepest slumber -- no! In delirium -- no! In a swoon -- no! In death -- no! Even in the grave all was not lost. Else there is no immortality for man.

If you think he does die at the end, you could interpret this passage to mean that the hope/relief of the last paragraph is not an earthly savior but the peace of the afterlife. The language of that last paragraph is rather apocalyptic:

There was a discordant hum of human voices! There was a loud blast as of many trumpets! There was a harsh grating as of a thousand thunders! The fiery walls rushed back! An outstretched arm caught my own as I fell fainting into the abyss.

Trumpet blasts, being rescued from the abyss (hell?)...?

Not sure if I've even convinced myself here, but it's fun to think about. In any case, I'm glad I wasn't the only one that found a little ambiguity in the ending.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	pendulumchanges 2008-02-07 04:14 am UTC (link)
	Whoa. You might not have convinced yourself, but you have certainly made me stop and think! I'll have to read it again... (Reply to this) (Parent)

pendulumchanges
2008-02-07 01:15 am UTC (link)

Which part do you find the most disgusting/disturbing/revolting?

Two parts always strike me:

1) Our first taste of the pit - ...my forehead seemed bathed in a clammy vapor, and the peculiar smell of decayed fungus arose to my nostrils. - ewwwwwwww... I can feel the warm humid air rising up from the pit and can just imagine the smell of the decaying... things... in the bottom of it.

2) omg the rats! - Forth from the well they hurried in fresh troops. They clung to the wood - they overran it, and leaped in hundreds upon my person....... They pressed - they swarmed upon me in ever accumulating heaps. They writhed upon my throat; their cold lips sought my own; I was half stifled by their thronging pressure; disgust, for which the world has no name, swelled my bosom, and chilled, with a heavy clamminess, my heart. - I can't put it any better than Poe already has.

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	secretsolitaire 2008-02-07 01:53 am UTC (link)
	The very idea of that horrific pendulum coming nearer and nearer while he's just tied down waiting for it...yeah, that made my hair stand on end. But the idea of rats' cold lips on my own is a very, very close runner-up... (Reply to this) (Parent)

tweedygal
2008-02-07 04:53 am UTC (link)

Amen on the rats. Ugh. I still get shivery just thinking about them.

I also am a little disturbed by the early stages of the imprisonment...everything is so unknown. Are there lots of pits? How will he avoid them? Is there anyone else with him? What will happen next? I can't imagine even having the presence of mind to *attempt* to determine how big the dungeon is.

Also, I am such a doofus that I got out some rulers and made a little square and starting moving the angles to acute and obtuse...all the better to imagine the room closing in on him. I amused myself with that one.

Good story...it's been a long time since I read it. Looking up words I couldn't remember was fun too...any excuse to read the dictionary works for me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	flashyshorts 2008-02-07 10:03 am UTC (link)
	Are there lots of pits? shakes in terror (Reply to this) (Parent)

	flashyshorts 2008-02-07 10:39 am UTC (link)
	Also, I am such a doofus that I got out some rulers and made a little square and starting moving the angles to acute and obtuse...all the better to imagine the room closing in on him. I amused myself with that one. I failed geometry and was dying until I read that the room started to look like a lozenge. sits closer to you in math class (Reply to this) (Parent)

	flashyshorts 2008-02-07 11:26 pm UTC (link)
	Most disgusting: the spicy, oily viand. Nasty meat. (Reply to this) (Parent)

pendulumchanges
2008-02-07 01:19 am UTC (link)

***SPOILERS FOR THE ENDING***

What strikes me about this story is the way the horror builds and builds and builds. Even when it seems things can't get any worse, they suddenly do.

That is precisely why I love this story. That, and the way all that tension and fear gets released in the very last line. It's like I'm sucking in another gasp as each new horror is revealed and not until that last line - The Inquisition was in the hands of its enemies. - am I able to breathe again.

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	testdog65 2008-02-07 02:30 am UTC (link)
	Yes! And this makes me feel like I'm living the moments with the narrator. I'm caught in the story itself. ~Ellen (Reply to this) (Parent)

	pendulumchanges 2008-02-07 01:31 am UTC (link)
	on a somewhat related note... OMG on IJ Tweak just quoted Poe! "Nevermore." The Raven is probably my second favorite piece by Poe. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	secretsolitaire 2008-02-07 03:44 am UTC (link)
	Gosh, I haven't read The Raven in ages. I do remember liking it though, back in 8th grade or whenever we read it? Oy. (Reply to this) (Parent)

testdog65
2008-02-07 02:27 am UTC (link)

Poe uses a technique here to ratchet up the terror that really impresses me. Not only does the narrator reveal in bits and pieces the actual physicality of the chamber as he himself discovers it. But he also slips in references to tales that he has heard about the horrors of this place, which adds an anticipatory element of fear. Even before we learn about all of the nasty elements of the chamber, we know the potential. This also serves to remove any possibility of hope from the situation. And when mentioning these tales, he does so without a lot of detail, which leaves the reader to use their own imagination as to just how bad things might actually get. Only after he puts all that in place does he then give us a clearer image of the chamber. But at that point, the element of horror has already been achieved, and now revealing the physical details just clarifies the terror, rather than reducing it to a practical description.

~Ellen

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pendulumchanges
2008-02-07 02:58 am UTC (link)

And when mentioning these tales, he does so without a lot of detail, which leaves the reader to use their own imagination as to just how bad things might actually get.

Exactly. And the terrible things we can dream up are potentially even worse than what actually happens.

the element of horror has already been achieved, and now revealing the physical details just clarifies the terror, rather than reducing it to a practical description.

Very well said Ellen!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	secretsolitaire 2008-02-07 03:42 am UTC (link)
	Yes, absolutely. That's a major principle of horror movies, isn't it, that it's best not to show the monster right away because your imagination will actually come up with something even scarier? That sick sense of not knowing is almost worse than the horrible thing itself. It really is masterfully done here. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	flashyshorts 2008-02-07 10:43 am UTC (link)
	We really are co-mods. points to my use of the word, 'masterfully' below (Reply to this) (Parent)

flashyshorts
2008-02-07 10:34 am UTC (link)

And when mentioning these tales, he does so without a lot of detail, which leaves the reader to use their own imagination as to just how bad things might actually get.

Yes, and he does this masterfully here:

Amid the thought of the fiery destruction that impended, the idea of the coolness of the well came over my soul like balm. I rushed to its deadly brink. I threw my straining vision below. The glare from the enkindled roof illumined its inmost recesses. Yet, for a wild moment, did my spirit refuse to comprehend the meaning of what I saw. At length it forced -- it wrestled its way into my soul -- it burned itself in upon my shuddering reason. Oh! for a voice to speak -- oh! horror! -- oh! any horror but this! With a shriek, I rushed from the margin, and buried my face in my hands -- weeping bitterly.

Whatever he sees in the pit finally reduces him to tears. I have a feeling were we each to look down into the pit, we would all see something different.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

justinlovesart
2008-02-07 06:08 am UTC (link)

I've enjoyed greatly reading this story for the first time and all the comments. Thank you to all.

One comment about the ending. For me what is most troubling about it is not the lack of clarity as to whether the narrator is saved or not, because it seems quite clear that he is, since he is, after all, telling the story.

What I find disturbing is the fact that his salvation comes from the outside, almost by a deus ex machina intervention, symbolized dramatically by the "outsretched hand" that grabs him while he's already falling into the pit.

It bothers me and makes me uneasy, because it seems to contradict what

pendulumchanges has highlighted as what appears otherwise to be the main theme of the story: how the survival instinct, the need to never give up is istinctive to humans even in the most hopeless of circumstances. How we CAN NOT give up hope.

Yet, at the end, the walls closing in, the narrator is in despair, the fate of his unavoidable death escaped only by an external intervention, rather than his resourcefulness.

However, this external intervention (which, imo, adds a religious undertone to the story) is possible only because the protagonist has been able to stay alive until then. Is it a prize for his previous resourcefulness?

There's another element that I find very interesting and confusing at the same time. The Latin epigraph at the beginning is a reference to the "terror" of the Jacobin era during the French revolution and the first paragraph suggests that the protagonist has been condemned to death by a revolutionary tribunal.

But later, he constantly refers to the tribunal as the Inquisition, therefore a reactionary, anti-revolutionary body that has its historical centre and paraphranalia (the pit and the pendulum) in Toledo.

At the end of the story there's a direct reference to the French army of Lasalle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Charles_Louis_Lasalle) who was a general in the revolutionary army. So he is in fact SAVED by the revolutionaries.

What are we supposed to make of all this? That the horrors of one regime are replaced by those of another? That those who save us now will be our oppressors in the future? That fate can NOT be escaped, if not momentarily, or by external intervention?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

flashyshorts
2008-02-07 09:31 am UTC (link)

However, this external intervention (which, imo, adds a religious undertone to the story) is possible only because the protagonist has been able to stay alive until then.

The religious theme is further amplified by the loud blast as of many trumpets! during his rescue.

Is it a prize for his previous resourcefulness?

God helps those who help themselves?

Or God as puppetmaster? This thought crossed my mind, after he almost fell into the pit and there was " . . . a rapid closing of a door overhead, while a faint gleam of light flashed suddenly through the gloom . . ." Not just the minions toying with him, but God himself. Father Time on the ceiling with his long white beard and hand of judgement and wrath.

There's another element that I find very interesting and confusing at the same time. The Latin epigraph at the beginning is a reference to the "terror" of the Jacobin era during the French revolution and the first paragraph suggests that the protagonist has been condemned to death by a revolutionary tribunal.

Do you think it's a revolutionary tribunal because of this:

It conveyed to my soul the idea of REVOLUTION, perhaps from its association in fancy with the burr of a mill-wheel."

I too was confused by this sentence and read it over and over. The preceding sentence talks about the inquisitorial voices merging into one 'dreamy, indeterminate hum' and I wondered if the 'hum' was the sound of the revolution of the mill-wheel. But because he capitalizes REVOLUTION, it does appear to mean something else. Maybe in his delirium, he wishes and hopes that the sound he hears is that of revolution come to save him?

All references that I've seen talk only about the Inquisition and not about any other authority.

So he is in fact SAVED by the revolutionaries.

And quite the revolutionary. LaSalle is described as "wild and irregular in his private life"!

What are we supposed to make of all this? That the horrors of one regime are replaced by those of another?

I don't know much about Napoleon other than his war prowess, but possibly yes. This idea is mirrored by the horrors of the pit being replaced by the horrors of the pendulum.

That those who save us now will be our oppressors in the future?

You may be on to something. Instead of describing the forces that saved him as 'saviors', he chooses to use the word, 'enemies' - The Inquisition was in the hands of its enemies. It's the last word he leaves us with in the story.

And we have the perfect foreshadowing for his rescue by possible future oppressors, in his first rescue by the RATS.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

justinlovesart
2008-02-07 09:46 pm UTC (link)

God helps those who help themselves?

That, or he likes to play with his food.

I tend to agree with your interpretation of God/Fate as puppetmaster who only lets the narrator (us) believe in his ability control his own destiny, toys with him, but dispenses salvation according to his own whim.

All references that I've seen talk only about the Inquisition and not about any other authority.

You're right, but that paragraph confused me, especially in the light of the Latin epigraph which is indeed anti-Jacobin, anti-revolutionary - which is what Lasalle and the Napoleonic troops fundamentally symbolize here. That's why the final 'salvation' cannot really be called a happy ending, I think.

his first rescue by the RATS

Good point. And how fitting to read this story at the start of the New Chinese Year, which happens to be the Year of the Rat! ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	tweedygal 2008-02-07 12:40 pm UTC (link)
	Do you think the ending is so abrupt on purpose? It seemed that way to me...after horror upon horror upon horror, it seems that there's no hope at all for the author. But, suddenly, all is over...he's "saved." My heart was in my throat and I really had to stop and think to myself, "Wait...it's OVER? Really over?" And then I could breathe again. :D (Reply to this) (Thread)

flashyshorts
2008-02-07 11:36 pm UTC (link)

The ending seemed abrupt to me too. It almost reads like a telegram. You have three short, quick, factual sentences with none of the high drama of the preceding pages or none of the capitalizations and exclamation points.

It was disorienting.

I think the styling of the ending mirrors the way he was saved out of the blue. It happened quick, fast and was completely unexpected. We are as dazed by it as he is.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	besamislabios 2008-02-07 02:29 pm UTC (link)
	This was my first time reading this story and thanks to all the comments above and a dictionnary I was able to enjoy it. I learnt many new English words and I love that. I'm very excited about reading american authors in their original tongues too. Looking forward to next week's story! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	flashyshorts 2008-02-07 11:41 pm UTC (link)
	My favorite thing that I learned was the meaning of Ultima Thule: The northernmost region of the habitable world as thought of by ancient geographers. A distant territory or destination. A remote goal or ideal I suck at Latin! What was your favorite new word? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

besamislabios
2008-02-08 08:30 pm UTC (link)

OMG, Latin and its "declinaciones" what a nightmare!

I think a synonym for Ultima Thule is nec plus ultra: nothing behond and in the context the maximum.

Let´s see I looked up many words:
daubed: smeared thickly
bauble: trinket
ague: febrile condition
athwart: from side to side

this one made me laugh:
moiety: half, but of course moitié, mitad!

I guess this one is my favorite:
auto-da-fes: from the Portuguese "act of the faith"
1. Public announcement of the sentences imposed by the Inquisition.
2. The public execution of those sentences by secular authorities, especially by burning at the stake.

I reread the story and it really makes you feel dizzy right along with him when he's trying to figure out where he is and how big is its cell. I kind of get lost too!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	flashyshorts 2008-02-10 10:29 pm UTC (link)
	I had to look up moiety also and then did the same thing you did, with regard to the French and Spanish. Thank you for telling me about nec plus ultra. That is my new knowledge for today. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

secretsolitaire
2008-02-07 11:41 pm UTC (link)

It's awesome that you're reading Poe in a foreign language to you -- I really admire that. I think the vocabulary and the old-fashioned style of writing can be tough even for those of us for whom English is a first language, so the fact that you were able to understand and appreciate the story is great. :-)

I studied Spanish in high school, but the thought of reading great literature in that language sounds completely impossible at this point. I didn't keep up my vocabulary, sadly.

Anyway, we're glad to have you along!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

besamislabios
2008-02-08 08:51 pm UTC (link)

Thank you.

I think the vocabulary and the old-fashioned style of writing can be tough

Very true, I must confess that I had to read the story several time. I enjoyed it, you can completely feel his anguish and fear.

Spanish is my mother tongue but I lived many years in France and when I saw that your first story was by Poe I remembered reading "Murders of the Rue Morgue" in French, when I was in high-school. I hope this isn't off topic.

I love languages so I'm glad I can read English literature and I love the format: short stories (perfect when your reading time is scarce)lol.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	secretsolitaire 2008-02-08 11:11 pm UTC (link)
	grins No such thing as off topic around here! Ooh, Murders of the Rue Morgue, that's a good one. Maybe we'll read that one someday. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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