Kipling's Cat ([info]mintogrubb) wrote in [info]christianity,
@ 2008-03-26 10:59:00
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Entry tags:hell

Gehennah
You will need a Bible dictionary to find this word, as most translations I know of have mistranslated it.

there was a valley, just outside Jerusalem. In the OT, it was a place of idol worship, so certain kings saw to it that the site became a refuse dump. fires were kept burning there to destroy the rotting carcasses of dead animals and even executed criminals.

It was a stark warning to evil doers, the stench of brimstone choked anyone who went near there, and in rabbinical literature, it came to symbolise the fate of those who transgressed the Law.

It is, I believe, where the Christian version of Hell stems from. Yet there was some debate in Jewish circles about the fate of those cast into it. was it annihilation , or eternal torment that they faced?

Jesus seems to hint at annihilation , in sayng that ' body *and* soul were destroyed in Gehennah.

But this is simply one interpretation, there may be others. So - what *is* the fate of those who reject God?


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[info]elena23
2008-03-26 11:16 am UTC (link)

My husband, who is a former Witness of Jehovah, has had a very difficult time coming to grips with the thought of a loving God who would condemn his followers to hell. I think he continues to believe, as he was taught then, that when you go to Sheol, or the grave, you are simply destroyed and wiped from the mind of God.

I believe in hell, though I don't spend a great deal of time worrying about it, to be honest. I know that I am imperfect and I know that God forgives me when I ask with a sincere heart. I think, as others have said before me, that there is a hell, it's just a very lonely place.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 11:49 am UTC (link)
I too, was brought up in that movement. there are those who say "you can't believe anything the Witnesses told you."

"Well, they said that Jesus was born in Bethlehem..." I usually reply. It's a fact, JW's go to church meetings 3 times a week, and do private study and bible reading on top of that. how do they manage? well, they watch less TV for a start.

Even so, there is little room for dissent or debate within the community, the 'party line ' is rigidly enforced. Here, I find that there is discussion and even debate, and I think that a good thing so long as the mods enforce basic rules of Christian conduct and use scriptures properly.

So, I bring my question here and wait to see what comes up. Your username sounded familiar. That must be you two in the icon, I can see it now the mail filter has cleared me to the site . You make a lovely couple.



Edited at 2008-03-26 11:51 am UTC

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[info]elena23
2008-03-26 11:59 am UTC (link)

While I don't agree with much of what my husband was taught (he no longer agrees with much of it either), I respect the dedication of the Witnesses and their devotion to the Bible (even though I think the specific Bible they use is a poor translation). My husband is incredibly well-versed whereas I, who grew up Catholic, am not on nearly as intimate of terms with the Bible as he. Much of the incredible wisdom that he possesses comes because he was a minister as a Witness, as does his conviction and love of God. So I'm not as quick as some to condemn the witnesses.

I think that respectful discussion and debate are healthy for the growth of faith. We have a lot to learn from one another.

That is my husband and I in my icon, at our wedding in April of 2005. Thank you. :)

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[info]christianblog
2008-03-26 12:06 pm UTC (link)
"...So - what *is* the fate of those who reject God?..."

When we die, we die in sin and we die imperfect, and we are not whole at all. So after death, we are healed, we are restored, we are given a sound mind, we are made whole, we are released from selfishness and error.

Godde works this in us, we cannot do it ourselves.

Could Godde do this to people who knew him even less in this world? And would he want to, out of compassion? Can Godde heal, and change people, even after death?

He is powerful enough to, because we know we all need healing and making whole after we die.

When you ask about "those who reject God" do we know the scope and extent of that rejection in people's hearts? And do we think Godde is powerless to meet them face to face after they have died, and show his great compassion and healing love, and break open their hearts?

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 01:51 pm UTC (link)
He is powerful enough to, because we know we all need healing and making whole after we die.

It seems to me that yes, God could.
However, there were those who rejected Christ, even though he wanted to gather them together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings".
Jesus plainly tells them
"Yet you did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you".

It would therefore seem logical that there will be those who will exist in what has been described as " a self imposed sulk" - but how does this mesh with traditional , orthodox theology?

I would not describe myself as very traditional or orthodox myself, but I do want to hear what our mods and others have to say on this.

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[info]malasadas
2008-03-26 01:06 pm UTC (link)
So - what *is* the fate of those who reject God?


The bank repossesses your free toaster?

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 01:54 pm UTC (link)
well, they won't need toasters there, will they?

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[info]sybbis
2008-03-26 03:21 pm UTC (link)
All of this has put into my head an image of Hell being an empty room, a counter, and Talkie the Toaster from Red Dwarf.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 07:03 pm UTC (link)
well, I am quite sure that a loving God would *never* inflict that on His creatures, however wicked they were, for all eternity (:

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[info]nobleprolet
2008-03-26 01:30 pm UTC (link)
I don't know. Some verses of the bible hint at annihilation, others at perpetual, eternal, suffering. I really want to believe in annihilation with all my heart, but it seems as if there are other bible verses who dispute such a claim.

It's really sad stuff. But those who reject the fountain of life are cut off. Which makes me want salvation only more. I love God and want to spend eternity with Him. I know He wants that for me too.

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[info]martiancyclist
2008-03-26 01:32 pm UTC (link)
God doesn't force anyone into heaven against their will.

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[info]pastorlenny
2008-03-26 01:41 pm UTC (link)
Whatever their fate, I'm sure it's not that great. Besides, God is real. So it might be better for me to focus on the particulars of how I may best serve Him today -- than to engage in speculation about the fate of others who do not.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 02:05 pm UTC (link)
Whilst I agree with the idea of serving God and making that central to our lives, I think it self evident that God does not give us a mere list of 'does and donts' in the Scriptures.

A fair amount of ancient history is preserved for our perusal, as well as theological discussion. When the Bible itself talks about Heaven and Hell, does God simply want us to turn the page and cut to the sermon on the mount, or the book of James?
I wish I could rmember my Bible like I used to. there is a verse in the epistles somewhere in which Paul talks about adding to our Christian virtues. "To your faith, add knowledge; to your knowledge, understanding" he says. wish I could recall that passage in full. It seems most appropriate.

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[info]pastorlenny
2008-03-26 02:20 pm UTC (link)
Serving God is not a list of do's and don'ts. That's legalism. A real life in Christ involves responding to Him in an ongoing way according to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

The passage you refer to is probably II Peter 1:5-8:

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note that the "knowledge" here is not general theological speculation or marine biology or sports trivia from the 1950's. It is knowledge of the Christ. Not that I don't enjoy a bit of theology or scientific reading or arguments about football teams. I just try to keep them in their proper place.

Spiritual growth and advancement of the Kingdom of God doesn't come from speculation about the irrelevant. It comes from obedience to the Christ.

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[info]nobleprolet
2008-03-26 02:52 pm UTC (link)
I concur. Jesus is the way. By going on the way of Jesus, our life is made new. I think God wants the old life on Earth, characterized by sin, to be done away with. And Jesus is the means by which we traverse away from the old life into the new one.

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[info]christianblog
2008-03-26 03:37 pm UTC (link)
Having said that, Lenny, I do think it's fair to say that the concern for a loved one who's died may extend to whether or not Godde intends to condemn them to eternal torment.

I think, just pastorally speaking, that we will meet quite a few people who really worry about that, because of relatives who seem to show absolutely no sign of interest in christian things.

And yet those people are loved. And so we're faced with probably lots of people for whom the whole issue of Hell is not just some theological debate but a grave human concern that effects how they live and feel and their inner happiness. And indeed we may be faced with people for whom Hell becomes even a sticking point to the point of closing down on Godde.

So I think the christian presentation of the concept of hell is quite a meaningful thing in the lives of many people and may even be a stumbling block for some (who may think "I find that kind of Godde who'd do such a thing morally repugnant").

Whether they're right to think that would be a separate argument, but I think (while in the end I just trust Godde) that this issue of hell is not one to be just glossed over.

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[info]pastorlenny
2008-03-26 03:50 pm UTC (link)
I think, just pastorally speaking, that we will meet quite a few people who really worry about that, because of relatives who seem to show absolutely no sign of interest in christian things.

"Pastorally speaking?" "We?" Are you high?

Are you suggesting that I renounce scripture because it might be a "stumbling block for some?" That I lie to people to comfort them? That I preach a false gospel because it is the only one that certain people will accept?

Jesus is an offense to everybody. He was a stumbling block to me. The reason He no longer is is not that someone told me a more acceptable lie. It is that someone preached the truth with the Holy Spirit present.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 07:42 pm UTC (link)
"Pastorally speaking?" "We?" Are you high?

Reverend, I have to say that I respect you highly for your deep knowledge of Christianity, and also for the depth of your commitment to Jesus Christ. but my admiration is beginning to waver somewhat. Not for you as a person , but for the conclusions your theology is taking us to.

You may believe that curiosity is wrong, and that we should simply stick with what we were told about Jesus, and not try to understand anything that's a bit deep and difficult.

Had I taken that view of things, I would still be in the Jehovah's witnesses, still denying the Divinity of Christ, still hoping that my own works were good enough. Only by questioning *all* of that did I wind up here.

And it is not that those who have academic qualifications are the only ones who have to go out and preach the gospel. I get called upon to talk about *my* faith as well. Now, it is true that I used to be a JW - they operate from a position of certainty. However, I am prepared to hear what others have to say, and I am not setting out my stall to block other ideas.

Now, if you are saying that Scripture is unclear, and it really is not that important what happens after death, then so be it.

But that does not seem to chime so well with what you have presented here. you seem to have a clear idea and that it is undebatable. If that is the case, can I see where this derives from, please?

Are you suggesting that I renounce scripture because it might be a "stumbling block for some?"

I think what Christianblog is saying is that we need to be clear on what does happen when someone dies without Christ as their personal Saviour.
Are we sure they they are in conscious torment for all eternity or not?

To me, the view of annihilation is scripturally sound. my own mother is not a Christian. were she to have died yesterday, I assume her to be eternally lost, that I should never see her again.

Even so, I think it quite possible that she simply ceased to exist, as existence is only possible in this universe if God permits it. And i can live with that.

I can also live with the idea that after death, that she appears before Christ Himself, and that Christ would make one last attempt to reach her heart - and it may well be that even people like my father, whom I loathed in life, will be saved and get into heaven as a result. meeting my dad in heaven will not be easy for me, but I trust that if Christ has let him in, then he is a completely changed from the person I knew on earth.

It is easy enough to feel a smug sense of satisfaction at thinking of him suffering forever, but I have a sneaking feeling that this does not spring from anything good. And, if it isn't good, then is it true?

The Bible affirms God's goodness. if we are just serving Jesus so as to get into heaven, then it does not matter who Jesus is, or what he is like. keep your mouth shut and follow orders is all we need to know and all we need to say.

But this is not the Jesus *I* believe in. Even if the Pope was right, I am not going to support the Spanish Inquisition, or the Crusades. this may make me a heretic, but this is where I am.

Of course, one can lie in order to stay a member of a Church, or a Christian community. but isn't honesty a Christian virtue? Isn't it practically necessary?

I'll be honest. I have difficulty aligning the belief in a loving God with a doctrine of eternal torment. to me it does not seem possible.

Yet it may be that Hell is self imposed, or that it is simply annihilation.

All I'm asking is if either view is compatible with an orthodox understanding of scripture, and if not, why not?

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[info]pastorlenny
2008-03-26 07:56 pm UTC (link)
You may believe that curiosity is wrong, and that we should simply stick with what we were told about Jesus, and not try to understand anything that's a bit deep and difficult.

Where did I ever say "curiosity is wrong?" Or that we should "not try to understand anything that's a bit deep and difficult?" On what do you base these statements?

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 08:42 pm UTC (link)
I am not saying you did, but this is usually where people have come from in the past.

I don't know if you have seen all the other entries yet, but our friend in the Eastern Orthodox Tradition has some interesting links. You may want to respond to them yourself, as he takes the bull by the horns and lays out a very powerful message.

I welcome such frankness, even though it is critical of my own Protestant tradition.
dionysius_rossi is the name to look for. I welcome your response to the material s/he has posted.

Edited at 2008-03-26 08:43 pm UTC

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[info]ems_thotz
2008-03-28 04:47 am UTC (link)
ah, but the fate of those who do not serve God is revealing of the nature of that very real God we serve ... and shouldn't we know /who/ we're serving?

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-28 07:54 am UTC (link)
A very valid point.
And I have to say that the Western tradition, in both it's Catholic and Protestant forms, do not really manifest God's goodness to the same degree as the Eastern Orthodox Church does in this respect.

Even so, the Western Tradition cannot give us what it does not have. It is therefore a shame that the Great Schism happened. I shall be reading up on Eastern orthodox theology, I think.

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[info]bus_surfer04
2008-03-26 04:33 pm UTC (link)
I believe, as CS Lewis once said, that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. We choose Hell, and we do it willingly.

Milton once said 'better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven', and I believe that everyone will be given the choice to say to God 'thy will be done' or have God say to them, 'THY will be done'. The two are not compatible; either we give in to God, or we make ourselves gods in His place, and that is idolatry.

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[info]dionysius_rossi
2008-03-26 06:19 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, the Greek words "gehenna" and "hades" (shoel in Hebrew) are two different words in the New Testament which are almost always translated in English versions of the Bible as the same word "Hell."

In Orthodoxy we consider this blurring of the words to be a very bad thing because in our interpretation, one word refers to the "middle state" of death (hades) whereas the other refers to the state of "eternal torment" (gehenna). But in our way, gehenna and paradise (or heaven) are actually the same state experienced differently depending on one's "salvation" or theosis (our relationship with God if you will) because what causes both state is nothing other than the presence of God no longer hidden from us. In other words, when God removes the veil He has put up in His mercy and reveals His presence more fully to us, how we respond to Him determines our experience of His energies which are nothing other than pure love. But of course, people are free to reject love then as they do now.

Concerning all these things the East has always been quick to admit (as evidenced in the Council of Florence) that we simply do not have all the details about eschatology because like the natures of Christ or His real presence in the Eucharist, death is a mystery. There are some things which have been revealed to us and based on some of the interpretations of the Councils concerning the Holy Scriptures. For example, we believe that it is improper to teach either universal salvation (thus the condemnation of Origen) or to teach annihilationism (as the SDAs and Jehovah's Witnesses believe) simple because it has been revealed as "eternal." This does not mean of course that God could not in His mercy according to His will perhaps save those even after gehenna, even after He reveals Himself to us in a more profound vision, it just means we don't know anything about such things. "For God all things are possible." All we know is that the experience of God's energies as gehenna are said to be eternal as is the experience of paradise as a ever continual deepening of our knowledge of God. In other words theosis never ends nor does one's rejection of God's love when the veil is removed.

For more information on our very peculiar view of eschatology, I'd recommend checking out these links:

http://www.orthodoxcanada.org/poffiles/pof16.htm
http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.00.htm
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

Like everything else, it's all tied to our view of salvation as a healing process by our participation In Christ in His Church, so if you're not clear about what we mean when we say "theosis," this all might seem very strange. Regardless, hope this helps and peace be with you!

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[info]dionysius_rossi
2008-03-26 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Quick note, I believe should also mention that gehenna and paradise are future states that do not currently exist. We all go down into the pit, shoel or hades until the resurrection. In other words, "heaven and hell" are currently empty.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 07:49 pm UTC (link)
In other words, when God removes the veil He has put up in His mercy and reveals His presence more fully to us, how we respond to Him determines our experience of His energies which are nothing other than pure love. But of course, people are free to reject love then as they do now.

I can see how this would work out. It would mean that we need to attune ourselves to God now, so that it would be easier in the life to come, but that we will all face the same thing.

My father, who had denied any need to acknowledge others all his life, will suddenly be confronted with that need and it will be inescapable. it may seem harsh, but he brought it all upon himself. And whatever happens to my mum, that was her doing too - ultimately.

thank you for the info, i am off to read up on the links.

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[info]gunslnger
2008-03-26 10:55 pm UTC (link)
Jesus refers to it in his parables as the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 8:11-12
Matthew 13:37-43
Matthew 13:47-50
Matthew 22:1-14
Matthew 24:48-51
Matthew 25:28-30

The concept of hell as fire also comes mainly from Revelation 20:11-15, where it's the lake of fire that was created for the Devil and his angels. It's also mentioned as fiery in Jesus' parable about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-26 11:15 pm UTC (link)
That's a very impressive list of references.
The concept of hell as fire also comes mainly from Revelation 20:11-15,

No - it comes from the OT, which was already in exisence, as I have already shown.
it maybe gets elaborated on in Rev, the gospels, etc.

where it's the lake of fire that was created for the Devil and his angels. It's also mentioned as fiery in Jesus' parable about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

Thanks, but the reference does nothing to answer the question as posed. Is it literal or symbolic? is it eternal torment or annihilation that is alluded to?

Fortunately , we have an answer further down , but thanks anyway.

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[info]gunslnger
2008-03-26 11:59 pm UTC (link)
Jesus' parable obviously paints it as eternal torment and not annihilation.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-27 12:20 am UTC (link)
which one?
there are several.
the rich man and lazarus 8can8 be taken either way, depending on how you lay it out.

is there really no one like a son or anyone else that stands next to abraham , just a beggar?

Is there really a casm between heaven and hell that one can look across? Do those in paradise really have to hear the eternal screams of the damned ?

i think the best answer comes lower down in comments from out friend in the Orthodox Church.

I will post on theosis another time, but it is interesting.

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[info]gunslnger
2008-03-27 01:35 am UTC (link)
It seems like you might be missing the understanding of what a parable is.

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[info]kiwiria
2008-03-28 07:54 am UTC (link)
You wouldn't happen to be able to read Danish, would you? There's a fascinating book written on this topic ("Hell and a Loving God" - the link is in English), but while it's currently being translated to English, it unfortunately hasn't been published yet.

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[info]mintogrubb
2008-03-28 07:58 pm UTC (link)
sadly, i don't speak danish at alll, but am always interested in discussing theology.

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[info]kiwiria
2008-03-28 10:26 pm UTC (link)
Few people do outside Denmark, so I wasn't counting on it, but thought it would be a shame not to ask.

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