christianity: Alright, all you night-owls.I'm writing

Jordan (

bus_surfer04) wrote in

christianity,
@ 2008-03-25 01:03:00

Alright, all you night-owls.

I'm writing a last-minute paper on tongues tonight, and I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions. For? Against? Any proof texts, beyond experiential knowledge?

It seems to me that most people base the current understanding of Tongues off of 1 Corinthians 14, which is definitely a thorny passage no matter which way you interpret it.

anyhow, I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially anyone with an intimate knowledge of Greek who can tell me what the heck Paul was talking about.

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christianblog
2008-03-25 09:00 am UTC (link)

Hi Jordan, my view is that the gift of tongues is a sweet and precious gift from Godde, which can be used to build up and encourage, and as a sign of the Holy Spirit in a community. As the author of Corinthians says, it needs to be seen within the context of the priority of love, and it is *not* a sign of individual maturity or holiness. But experientially, if this is a way that Godde works through the Holy Spirit, we should not close our minds to it.

I've written about the experiential side on a little website I've made here and while I know you were looking mainly for scriptural analysis of the subject, I do get quite regular correspondence from people who find it helpful or encouraging, so I hope it might be helpful to you as well.

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	mintogrubb 2008-03-25 10:17 am UTC (link)
	glossolalia (speaking in tongues) is a good phrase to google for info. (Reply to this)

	elena23 2008-03-25 11:21 am UTC (link)
	I have never seen compelling evidence of anyone in the modern age speaking in tongues. I am extremely skeptical that this gift is conveyed as frequently or often (or at all) as people state. Unfortunately, I can't help you with Paul. :) (Reply to this)

	girl4god1919 2008-03-25 01:16 pm UTC (link)
	Me and my Bible class talked about this. My Bible teacher says that it was only a gift given to the disciples after Jesus went to heaven and they were all in the room. He says that what the gift of tongues was, is that one of the disciples could be speaking in one language and everyone in the crowd could understand him in their own language. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	pastorlenny 2008-03-25 03:13 pm UTC (link)
	Of course, there is no scriptural basis for this position. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

christianblog
2008-03-25 04:20 pm UTC (link)

Well the scriptural accounts make it clear that people carried on speaking in tongues *after* Jesus had ascended to heavens.

It is specifically referred to as a gift. In addition, the scripture does not imply that *everyone* in a crowd would understand what was spoken in tongues, otherwise why does it point out the need for someone with the gift of interpretation (which I don't take as just someone who speaks that language, but as a supernatural gift of interpretation - as supernatural as the speaking in tongues itself).

I really don't think the scriptures convey the idea of some practical non-supernatural process going on, like someone with a dictionary, or someone who has learnt the language (though that could also happen).

The impression and context of these gifts seems to be associated with the supernatural and the miraculous, and seems to point like a sign to the presence of the Holy Spirit and something going on.

Some people argue that the reference to 'tongues of angels' is a literary device and impression, not to be taken literally. I don't agree at all. I believe that when people speak in tongues, it is often - as the scripture mentions in the phrase - an angelic language.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that tongues did not stop at Pentecost, so really why should tongues stop later when we still have the same Holy Spirit and the same Jesus Christ?

It's just that we should keep this gift (a sweet and precious gift) in perspective: (a) it's for the building up of individuals and the church, not just something for an experience; (b) it's just *one* gift and *one* aspect of how we can serve Jesus and be used for Jesus, but there are so many other ways (like shopping for the person next door, or whatever) and the really important things are faith and hope and love.

Speaking in tongues has no need to be divisive, if seen in this way, because there are 1001 ways of living a christian life, and tongues is part of one of them. Other people have a gift of writing christian music. That's not divisive. That didn't stop at Pentecost. Other people have a gift of teaching or preaching or serving. They didn't stop at Pentecost.

But we should use discernment, because like any good thing, it can be used careless or even be simulated. I personally see the gift of tongues as something very very sacred, and also intimate, and something to be revered, because you are inviting the Holy Spirit to flow through you, and that is a profound thing, not a game.

I believe the scriptures refer to the gift of tongues because it is a gift given to christians and the church, for building up and encouragement and witness to Jesus Christ. I believe it is something wholly valid today.

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	girl4god1919 2008-03-25 11:38 pm UTC (link)
	ya i think there is. I will find out tomorrow in Bible class. (Reply to this)(Parent)

pastorlenny
2008-03-25 01:20 pm UTC (link)

Verse 18 is interesting -- but I guess you already got the paper done. The broader concept is intersting as well. How able are we to do things which we don't understand as we yield ourselves to the Spirit? Take Isaac to the mountain? Leave a thriving revival to witness to one black man in a fancy car? Not preach in Asia? Can demonstrations of love be a form of "tongues" when we don't understand them but the the ones to whom the love is being demonstrated do? Can art be "tongues?"

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christianblog
2008-03-25 04:03 pm UTC (link)

Can art be "tongues?"

I find that a really interesting concept.

Both in terms of the creative flow involved in both processes, and in terms of expressing and communicating without conscious analysis of individual words.

Experientially, I see the reception and expression of tongues as being 'like' the flow of a stream.

In my experience I also find that to be the case sometimes with art and creativity.

There is a creative flow going on, a flow of love really, and joy and aliveness... and, in spiritual terms, one is drawn into the presence of the Holy Spirit in the act of opening up to it.

So yes, I do see parallels.

I think I'm agreeing with you too (scary!) in that you seem to accept that the gift of tongues offered to the church and set out in scripture can be as much a part of our present christian living as love or hope or teaching or whatever.

It didn't just stop after the initial outflow.

When you think about it, why would it?

But equally, tongues need restraint and spiritual discernment. They should be seen as something sacred, not some easy emotionalism or cheap entertainment.

In a way - a different way to the specific gift of tongues as described in the scriptures - the whole universe is speaking in tongues... the heavens declaring the glory of the holy and eternal one.

There is an eternal flow going on, an eternal flow of love, a proclamation and affirmation of love, a manifestation of the One who made the universe and reigns forever.

Turning to the specific gift of *speaking* in tongues, I see it also as a sign and witness of the Holy Spirit and the supernatural nature of our lives in Jesus Christ.

But when someone is composing music or painting a picture, that can also be a sign and witness. Because the Holy Spirit is at work in creation and renewal and is like an ever-flowing stream.

And that's what speaking in tongues feels like to me, sort of fragranced and sanctified by the Spirit's sovereign presence.

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	pastorlenny 2008-03-25 04:17 pm UTC (link)
	Remember, whenever you agree with me you're right. Whenever you disagree, you are heretical. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	christianblog 2008-03-25 04:21 pm UTC (link)
	Got it! (Reply to this)(Parent)

xenaclone
2008-03-25 04:36 pm UTC (link)

I speak in tongues and so do a number of people I know. It's real.

'The Holy Spirit speaks in sighs and groans too deep for words' [Can't remember where that comes; I'm pretty sure it's Paul somewhere].

It's an ecstatic language; to put it simply, in times of deep worship [or longing/prayer], your mouth can go on autopilot and the Holy Spirit kinda takes over. You retain control though and can stop it if you want to.

XC [At least, that's how it is for me]

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christianblog
2008-03-25 05:36 pm UTC (link)

"...your mouth can go on autopilot and the Holy Spirit kinda takes over. You retain control though and can stop it if you want to..."

That's exactly how it is for me too. It takes no effort or thought at all to speak in tongues, so your description of the mouth going on autopilot is exactly how it feels.

But, as you importantly mention, you retain control throughout. The Holy Spirit does not 'take over your mind' or possess you. You remain in control, which is characteristic of how Jesus respects our free will, when you think of it.

And yes, you can stop anytime, like switching on or off a tap - although there are certainly times when you are aware of urgency in the words and a sort of need to continue.

I find your description just in line with how it has been for me, so I find that encouraging :)

It is such a sweet and precious gift, though not necessary for salvation, and only one gift among many - and nothing like as important as loving kindness.

But I will not disdain a gift that has been given us.

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catholic_heart
2008-03-25 10:55 pm UTC (link)

One thing to keep in mind is the context. The Greeks at Corinth were by nature very pneumatic people, and thought themselves to be special, indeed they were a bit puffed up, because the gift of tongues was so prevalent among them. So while Paul certainly recognizes tongues as a gift of the Holy Spirit, he sort of intentionally makes it the least important of the gifts, which is why tongues is the last of the listed gifts in verses 4-11 of 1 Cor 12. Wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment of spirits, these are all more important than the last of the listed gifts, the gift of tongues. It is also as a means of putting the gift in its proper place, as the least important of the gifts, that he lists tongues first as the gifts which are worthless if one does not have love in 1 Cor 13:1. So while Paul recognizes tongues and their interpretation to be a good thing, as are all gifts from God, it is the least among the many gifts, and Paul would much rather a person rejoice in the gifts of wisdom and faith and knowledge and prophecy and healing and so forth. While 1 Cor 12 is a truly beautiful and theologically important passage, it was also written in a sense to put the Corinthians into place.

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