Feminist Christians

Mod post

2007-12-22T04:15:04Z

Since I'm technically a mod of this community (not that it ever needs any modding to speak of) I wanted to post to let all you folks know that I'll be out of town for the next week and I won't be online very much. In the unlikely event anything blows up, co-mod soapinha should (hopefully) be around. I hope you all have a very merry Christmas and stay warm! Cheers!

Abortion

2007-12-20T04:32:09Z

I found the following article last week, but only got the chance to read it today

Why Abortion is Biblical
How anti-abortion activists misrepresent the biblical record
http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

It was interesting, but I'm unsure what to think of it. Thoughts?

x-posted

A Question about Address

2007-12-18T21:41:29Z

I wonder if anyone else has dealt with this and looking for some advice. Please note, I want to deal with this in a gracious, Christ-like manner.
Whether you're married or not, if you have advice on this issue, I'd appreciate it.

What is the best way to make it known that you do not like being referred to as Mrs. Husband's Name? Especially when both are being addressed so that the woman becomes just the "and Mrs."

My first response is to say, "There is no such person. Especially since I don't even share his last name." But that seems overly rude. Any help?

christ_feminism @ 2007-11-12T04:57:00

2007-11-11T18:02:20Z

Hey!

I'm 14, and my home is a Christian one. We're Coptic Orthodox. I've recently gotten interested in feminism, and decided to see what my denomination had to say.

http://www.coptichymns.net/modules.php?name=Coptic_Media&op=modload&file=index&p=Sermons/English%20Sermons/Bishop%20Angaelos&l=50

(It's a podcast. Scroll down or do a search for feminism)

Unfortunately, it's a bit long, but if anyone has the chance to listen to it, could you reply here and tell me what you think? Thanks.

One explanation for 1 Timothy 2:11-15

2007-10-13T01:29:03Z

Hello! I have had some issues with my feminist and Christian beliefs recently, so I thought I'd post a question to the community (I had posted it to my journal, but it didn't seem to catch on to discussion.) 1 Timothy 2:11- 15 has always bugged me. I can understand the explanation that Christians give me for gender roles (that they represent the relationship between God and the Church,) but this verse seems to contradict that statement. Perhaps I am misunderstanding this, but it seems to say that woman cannot have authority over man because man was created first, and because woman was deceived: 1 Timothy 2:11-15: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

So anyways, I have been trying to expose myself to different explanations for this verse, and I want some opinions on this one:

"For not without significance did the apostle say, “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression;” 1 Tim. ii. 14. but he speaks thus, because the woman accepted as true what the serpent told her, but the man could not bear to be severed from his only companion, even though this involved a partnership in sin. He was not on this account less culpable, but sinned with his eyes open. And so the apostle does not say, “He did not sin,” but “He was not deceived.” For he shows that he sinned when he says, “By one man sin entered into the world,” Rom. v. 12. and immediately after more distinctly, “In the likeness of Adam’s transgression.” But he meant that those are deceived who do not judge that which they do to be sin; but he knew. Otherwise how were it true “Adam was not deceived?” But having as yet no experience of the divine severity, he was possibly deceived in so far as he thought his sin venial. And consequently he was not deceived as the woman was deceived, but he was deceived as to the judgment which would be passed on his apology: “The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me, and I did eat.” Gen. iii. 12. What need of saying more? Although they were not both deceived by credulity, yet both were entangled in the snares of the devil, and taken by sin." copied from http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XIV.11.html, an ebook for St. Augustin's City of God and Christian Doctrine that you can access without a subscription.

If you have any input, that would be much appreciated. Do you agree with this interpretation? Isn't it worse to knowingly sin than to mistakenly fall into sin? I have always been told that this is the case, but if this is the reason that man has authority over women, it doesn't make sense to me. The message I am getting here is, "Eve didn't know better, so perhaps she isn't the best person to be following. Adam knowingly did wrong- but he is the better one to be following." Wouldn't both be bad? Maybe it's even worse to follow someone who knowingly does wrong, than someone who just doesn't know any better.

"Value Voters"

2007-09-18T17:40:33Z

Does anyone else have a problem with the category "Value Voters?"

I tend to listen to Conservative Christian Radio at work - partly because I'm not aware of any good Liberal Radio to listen to. Frequently, I find myself rather angry at what I hear. Perhaps it would be easier for me to have compassion for fundamentalists if I did not listen to the words of their leaders so much, but I wonder if I would still feel the same impulses to teach and help people ask questions if I did not keep in touch with the extreme right. Since many of these beliefs find a home within my family of origin, there's a good chance I would.

Today, on AFR's "Today Issues," the topic was the Value Voters Debate that was held last night. Obviously, only Republican Candidates showed up - and interestingly the four "top runners" did not make an appearance either.

The problem that I have with calling socially conservative Christians "Value Voters" is that the implication is that those who do not share their social positions do not have values. Only this select group of Christians (often fundamentalists) and those who align with them socially have values.

I realize I cannot speak for other voters, but I know that I vote based on my values. Unfortunately, that often means voting for the "least bad" candidate from the perspective of my values, but I do vote based on my vaules. I would like to believe that everyone who takes the time to go to the polls are also voting based on their values. I wonder what it is that "Value Voters" think that those who disagree with them base their voting choices on.

This, of course, is tied into the issue of "Family Values." Again, the implication is that if you support the family, you support a particular form of it ONLY. I have "Family Values" and definitely believe in the protection of the family - I just do not believe that protecting the family means telling two committed men or women that they cannot form and start a family just because they don't have the right equipment to do it on their own. Nor do my values for a healthy family mean teaching girls to be submissive and men that they have to be the spiritual covering of their future wives or that I should teach my future daughter that she is a gift to her future husband. (Similarily would be the term "Pro-Family.")

Words do matter. I had a friend who said that "words are silly." But the truth of the matter is that words do matter. And these terms of "Value Voters" and "Family Values" used in a narrow exclusive sense are very hurtful to those individuals who take their values very seriously but don't agree with the social conservatives.

Do these terms bother anyone else?

Why are you a feminist?

2007-07-11T15:13:51Z

What mile-stones do you remember that led you to embrace the label "feminist" in your own life and faith walk? So many women, particularly of faith, see feminists as evil or misguided and feminism as the enemy of being a Christian woman.

I'm curious to learn what experiences, for both women and men, have lead individuals to call themselves feminists.

For myself, there are many mile-stones. Including the fight with my own family for them to accept my calling to be an ordained minister. Interesting that that fight did end successfully. My father performed my ordination. However, it was not an easy fight.

One stands out even above that however:

I remember in 1998 reading the updated Baptist Faith and Message. A section on the family had been added at the Conference that June. I remember reading it and crying. Crying because I knew, in that moment, that I could never get married. I could not be a Christian wife, according to this BF&M. And if I could not be a Christian/Biblical wife, then I never wanted to be a wife.

The particular section of the article reads as follows:

The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God's image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to His people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.

While there is language of equality in there, it is clear that the woman is only equal before God, not in the marriage itself. She is to "submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ." To her alone falls the "responsibility to respect" and is to be "his helper." There is no true mutuality here. No equality.

Fortunately, I have since learned that this limited interpretation of Ephesians is not the only one, nor is it even the most correct one!

This mile-stone is particularly important to me. No young woman should have to cry because God has made her wrong (which is what I thought at the time).

(A fuller post and exploration of my own journey can be found on my journal inimagiodei. I've only posted the first of these mile-stones (the one seen above), but will be posting more in the next few days.)

So what events or people formed you, so that you now call yourself a feminist?

x-posted to faith_feminists.

Couple questions concerning sex and society

2007-07-11T02:56:12Z

What do you folks think about sexual liberation/the sexual revolution in general? Was it a positive change for women?

I think from time to time that it is a dubious sort of progress to go from one absolute standard of sexual behavior ("nice girls don't") to another ("everybody does it"). I think while it is good for people to have options, birth control, and so forth, the problem is that we feel compelled to take them... and if we don't we feel square. At least the sexual revolution has brought women's sexuality out into the open and made it plain that we deserve pleasure too. Whether or not you believe that sex is only for marriage, it should be pretty clear that both partners should enjoy it.

On a more personal level, I haven't been particularly Christian up until recently, but I had a passing familiarity with it beforehand. At the point when I was making the decision about whether or not to have sex outside of marriage, I didn't feel that any of the Christian rhetoric on the matter was at all helpful. What can be said to people facing this decision that is more helpful than "The Bible says to wait until marriage"? Because, let's face it, that's not very helpful.

Women's Ordination

2007-06-26T15:54:24Z

Sometimes I’m asked, “How could you leave a progressive mainline church for the Orthodox Church, which is so patriarchal and oppressive?” My experience has been the opposite; the Orthodox Church has been more welcoming of my gifts than the Episcopal Church ever was. I have been invited to write, speak, and preach in countless Orthodox venues; I never had such invitations in my previous denomination.

- Frederica Mathewes-Green, Gender: Men, Women, Sex, Feminism, p. 17

Reading this started me thinking about my own experience. I grew up in a Baptist church whose pastor taught that not only could women not be ordained, they also had no authority to instruct men in spiritual matters, even if they had more knowledge on the subject. (The issue in question was a woman with many years’ experience in missionary work being forbidden from teaching an adult Sunday school class on missions, simply because she was a woman.) This extended, he said, to the secular world; for example, if a woman were offered a promotion in her job that would put her in a position of authority over men, taking it would be a sin. A woman was forbidden, he claimed, from instructing a man in anything.

This, as you might imagine, was the reason my family left the church.

Recently I have begun what promises to be a long journey towards Eastern Orthodoxy, and have become more sensitive to accusations towards Catholic and Orthodox Christians, usually by mainstream Protestants who accept women’s ordination, that the fact that they do not ordain women makes them anti-woman.

Frederica’s experience, and my own, gives a different picture. In Orthodoxy, women are venerated as saints along with men—and the highest of saints, the Virgin Mary, is a woman—and women are given positions of power and authority in the church.

One of the churches I mentioned was clearly misogynistic, but their position on women’s ordination alone didn’t make them so; their general attitude towards women did.

Is it really fair for the issue of women’s ordination to be, as it often is, the litmus test for whether a religion or sect is pro- or anti-woman? I’m interested in hearing others’ experiences and thoughts on the matter.

(xposted to faith_feminists)

christ_feminism @ 2007-06-24T13:17:00

2007-06-24T17:17:50Z

What do you say to people who tell you Christianity is anti-woman, or who think you shouldn't be practicing it, or who avoid it themselves on the grounds that it's anti-woman? How do you defend your overlap of Christianity and feminism?

LDS Church to Ordain Women?

2007-06-20T05:00:11Z

Article here.

Christofferson said it was conceivable Mormonism could end a ban on women in its lay priesthood as it did with blacks in 1978, if God directs the church president to do so in a revelation. Revelations are a central tenant of Mormonism, giving the religion flexibility to evolve.

Well, since they changed their policies on blacks, it's possible they'll eventually change their stance on women. They did also end up banning polygamy; so this seems forseeable in the future.

Are there any Mormons here to maybe expand on this issue?

Head Covering

2007-06-15T00:52:59Z

As you're probably aware, there is a particular passage on head coverings in the Bible, commanding women to cover their heads (1 Corinth 11:5).

It seems the commandment is specifically addressing prayer/worship, but doesn't say that a head covering or veil is to be worn at any other time. What is everyone's take on it? Do you follow this commandment; if so, why? and if not, why not?

Personally, I'm consdering it. Mostly because I want to draw less attention to myself during prayer (both in private, and at Church) and focus more on God. I think it's fine to want to do so, and it isn't 'unempowering' or anything like that. It's very much a personal choice, and is between the woman and God.

Reconciliation

2007-06-11T03:20:31Z

Okay, perhaps reconciliation isn't such a great term - but I digress:

How do you feel both your faith and feminism intertwine? do you feel that being a Christian means being a feminist, or more feminist minded? How do you reconcile it all with the more sexist Biblical texts? And for the Catholic and Orthodox members; how do you reconcile it with Church teachings?

Personally, I don't think any of us can say whether Christ would've been a feminist or not - but he certainly can't be called sexist. And I think that's one of the main issues; he did treat all people equally. I feel that's one of the reason why you certainly can be both feminist and Christian, and perhaps, why being a Christian can men being more feminist/egalitarian.

The Bible, well, the Bible can be used to support virtually anything you want. Now, this certainly isn't to say the Bible is bad, or wrong; but that some people do use the Bible for their own evil gains. It was used to support racism and slavery in the past; so that is a clear example of how the Bible can be manipulated. I'm sure many would say *we* manipulate the Bible to support our views, but I wonder if that's really true. For example, the story of creation and the first sin:
Now, there are actually two versions of the creation story. Several Bibles only contain one (or at least I think they do, I haven't read them all), where Eve is created from the rib of Adam; but others also have the account where man and woman are created at the same time in God's image/likeness. I personally believe the former, because frankly, it just makes more sense.

The first sin: Many people use this particular story to claim women are weak-willed/minded (and also to say that menstruation/childbirth is a 'curse') but, it could be interpreted differently; because Eve was tricked by the serpent, proposed to be the Devil. Now, if we take the idea that Satan is a great manipulator, it could be concluded that he did so with Eve, and even if she wasn't gullible, or easily manipulated, Satan was still able to do so.
Adam's disobedience to God was different, in that he didn't need Satan/the serpent to trick him. Adam simply took the fruit from Eve and ate it. He took no convincing. I'm certainly not saying men are more gullible, but simply that there can be various interpretations to the creation story, and the first sin. And a lot of the time, that's what a lot of it is; interpretation, and I don't think they're wrong. I feel it's simply God speaking to them in a different way, through His words. So there we go, the Bible doesn't have to be sexist.

Books!

2007-06-10T20:01:06Z

I want to say, first off, thanks so much to soapinha for creating this comm, and also to bitterlight for being co-mod!

Even though this general topic has come up in christianleft a few times I think, but it might be a fun way to start off -- What are everyone's favourite Christian & feminist book recommendations?

Edit: I tried to add a "books" tag to this, but alas could not. Could there be a 'books' tag for future referencing? Thanks!

Welcome!

2007-06-10T03:38:26Z

Woot, first post here.

So, welcome everyone to christ_feminism. As you can see in the unserinfo - this community is for the discussion of Christian and feminist issues, and subjects.

I, along with bitterlight, are the lovely Mods. If you have a problem, or any questions, ask us.

Please, be polite and well, start posting, I guess.

Goodbye for now. :)