Rieux ([info]dr_rieux) wrote in [info]chalice_circle,
@ 2008-06-18 19:05:00
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Thanks for All the Fish (with update)
After seven years in the UU world, I've decided that I can no longer in good conscience call myself a Unitarian Universalist, and that I need to resign my membership in my local UU church. In the long and hallowed tradition of GBCW posts, though, I need to explain why--and so you can follow me below the fold if you're interested.


My most recent post on my personal LJ contained an essay that I composed with the intention of putting it up on my UU church’s online discussion forum. You’re welcome to read the whole thing if you have the time and the interest--but if not, the short version is that I am alarmed at the popularity within UUism of the work of Methodist minister and Christian theologian Rev. James Fowler. Specifically, I'm concerned about his theory of faith development, which he first stated in his 1981 book, Stages of Faith. My concern arises because it’s very clear that Fowler has nothing but bile and condescension for nontheistic and irreligious ways of seeing the world--which, unfortunately, hasn’t prevented several UU ministers from deciding that his theory is terrific. (It’s not; it’s heavily bigoted, and its pretensions to verifiable social science are absurd.) Most troubling of all is that some of these UU ministers have picked up on Fowler’s insulting attacks on atheists and other kinds of nonbelievers and are using his theory as an excuse to repeat these same attacks. My essay communicates my alarm at this development.

Before posting the essay on the church discussion forum, though, I decided to circulate it to some friends of mine from my church. I got a reasonable number of responses, and most of them were sympathetic and positive.

On the other hand, one friend of mine (who also happens to be a member of the Ministerial Selection Committee that is currently searching for a new settled minister for our church) responded to my Fowler essay by writing me to recommend strongly that I not post it. In the message my friend confidently predicted that, if I published the piece, it would provoke “a big fight” on the online forum and perhaps off of it.

I have no doubt that this friend of mine meant entirely well. And there’s a better-than-even chance that his prediction was correct; if my fellow parishioners had figured out that one of the Fowler-loving UU ministers I quote repeatedly in the essay happens to be our current interim minister (in her October 2007 sermon that I’ve posted here), there could indeed have been trouble. For one thing, forum rules forbid criticism of our ministers--and even if they didn’t, I imagine that some of my neighbors think she’s worth defending. I tried to direct my ire at James Fowler, an outsider, rather than anyone that a casual reader would realize was much closer to home; but a few people probably would have seen through it.


Anyway, at my friend’s strenuous urging, I decided not to post my Fowler essay on the church forum. But the reason I demurred--the threatened “fight”--rankled. It still does.

The first year of the tenure of my church’s interim minister has alienated me fairly significantly from the church: since I heard the infamous sermon (which is not the only issue--“Rev. Smith” has reiterated her ugly notions about nonbelieving people and our ideals in various other forums, including a few choice potshots in other sermons), I have ended my five-year tenure in the church choir and decided that I could no longer attend her services.

These decisions were weeks old by the time I composed the post above and circulated it to friends in the congregation. But in that context, “It’ll cause a big fight” feels like the last straw. An interim minister is one thing--in 2009, Rev. Smith will move on to lecture some other church about the worthlessness of those of us who don’t share her beliefs--but the congregation is another matter. The same congregation that has raised nary a peep of protest about the minister’s shameful mistreatment of religious minorities but would (if my Search Committee friend is correct) fight me for protesting such mistreatment--that congregation will still be here when Smith is gone. I’m less than convinced that it’s going to be comfortable to be part of that congregation anytime soon. I thought, during the years that our clergy were kind and respectful UUs, that my congregation would stand up and protest if atheophobia ever started issuing from the pulpit--but it appears that I was wrong.


I decided, at age 17, that my disagreement with fundamental tenets meant that I could no longer be part of a Christian congregation. A few months ago I made the decision that I couldn’t take part in services led by a woman whose platform is, I believe, deeply violative of the First and Fourth Principles--the specific ideals that attracted me to UUism in the first place. These more recent events, though, have pushed me to reconsider my connection to Unitarian Universalism writ large. As I have noticed for my entire tenure as a UU, our Association is dotted by powerful ministers and administrators who regularly push outrageous and bigoted messages about atheists, agnostics, not-particularly-“spiritual” humanists, and anyone whose skepticism leads her to an outlook that is less pious than these figures would prefer. UU discourse about atheism and skepticism is riven with bigotry, disrespect, and ignorant stereotype--and the broader community’s reponse has been... for the most part utter silence.

All of that I’ve known (and found severely troubling, and fought tooth and nail on online forums like this one) for years. Now, though, the problem has found its way to my home congregation. My own minister has declared that I, and everyone who sees the world the way I do,
are often unaware of the sharp limits of their empathy and their abilities to construct and identify with the interior feelings and processes of others. Religiously, these persons are often drawn to the rigidities and seemingly unambiguous teachings of fundamentalism--and there are liberals and radical fundamentalist spirits. As spouses, parents and bosses, such persons are, at the best, insensitive, and at the worst, rigid, authoritarian, and emotionally abusive.
Unitarian Universalists cannot get away with firing outrageous personal insults like those at nearly any kind of minority--sexual minorities, ethnic minorities, traditional-religious (and for that matter nontraditional-religious) minorities--but they can get away with firing them at me. And no one will call them on it; instead, it is complaints about such ill treatment that cause problems. We won’t “fight” about James Fowler’s attacks on innocent people being preached from our pulpit, but we’ll fight about complaints directed at those attacks.

For now, that’s just gotten to be too much to bear. If Unitarian Universalist communities are going to tolerate bigoted personal attacks on (ir)religious minorities, then they leave me--and, it appears to me, thousands of other UUs in good standing--behind. I can’t stay here, for the same reason I couldn’t stay in Christianity: I don’t think the community shares my ideals, despite the Principles they claim.


A few weeks ago, having come to this sad conclusion, I cancelled my recurring donation to my church. All that’s left is to notify the office that I’m resigning my membership.

I hold out the faintest glimmer of hope that the new settled minister at my church will be able to turn the community in a more productive direction. I think, though, that the die is cast: I’m a double apostate now, an ex-UU.

I’m going to try out the atheist organization in my metro area. Though the group is fairly active by the standards of nonbelivers’ organizations, it can’t hold a candle to an ordinary UU church in terms of programming--especially when it comes to musical and meditative fare. On the bright side, no one is going to mock me for “imagining” that my secular ideals “are creative and important”; no one is going to declare my atheism a “demonic pseudoreligion” or tell the public that the group’s essential message is “One God, no one left behind.” Exclusionary and insulting messages like those, unfortunately, are the territory of powers-that-be within UUism.

I came to Unitarian Universalism all too well aware of the atheophobia it contained, concerned about the treatment that my nonbeliefs would receive here. For seven years I found a niche where I could be a UU without having to suffer the nastiness I had seen in A Chosen Faith and related bigotries. With the introduction of my church’s interim minister and the community’s tacit response to her assaults, though, that niche seems to have closed.

So, sadly, I’m afraid that this is farewell to Unitarian Universalism. It’s time for me to be just a plain old atheist again.

--

Update (addendum):

In light of a few comments below (especially gamerchick's), I wanted to add that I definitely don't think that "Rev. Smith" is representative of my whole congregation's views on nontheists. If she were, I would have left years ago--long before she ever arrived. My sense is that the vast majority of members of the congregation are not haters. And I'd bet that that's true for all, or almost all, of the congregations in the UUA. (Though as any liberal community recognizes, distaste for minorities--be it homophobia, racism, transphobia, atheophobia, or whatever other kind--exists in all of us in larger shares than we'd like to admit.)

My frustration with the congregation is that I haven't seen any critical reaction to Rev. Smith's nastiness. It seems to me that the minister's actions (it wasn't just that sermon, BTW, though that was the most concentrated ugliness she's thrown out there) deserve some public dissent. And I've tried, but there just didn't seem to be much interest from the rest of the congregation in any public complaint. I guess, given the potency of what she has preached, that I expect better.



(Post a new comment)


[info]sparkofcreation
2008-06-19 12:17 am UTC (link)
You're bidding farewell to a religion based on negative experiences with one minister at one church?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]redqueenofevil
2008-06-19 12:37 am UTC (link)
This isn't an uncommon thing. I hope you don't mind if I share an example or two.

My stepfather did the same thing, the minister at his UU church admitted that the African American community had little place in his congregation, and rather than protest it, the congregation kept silent. Being African American himself, he saw the writing on the wall, and left.

Another example deals with a minister at another UU congregation in Los Angeles, who took charge, and in the process, alienated several from that congregation. This minister is not a people person, and did not apologize for his demeanor, even though it cost that congregation several prominent members.

Some of these people left the UU faith completely. It's a combination case of burnout and the bad apple scenario. It's rather unfortunate, but when a congregation enables these ministers to cause such negativity, it is just as bad as if they were throwing the punches themselves.


To [info]dr_rieux, not all UU congregations are atheophobic. As a matter of fact, many aren't. It sounds like this one wasn't right for you, but rather than discouraging you from leaving the UUA all together, I can only hope your journey isn't so painful in the future.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

One Bad U*U Can Spoil A Whole Bunch. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 06:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 05:41 pm UTC
Likewise. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 08:37 pm UTC

[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 02:52 pm UTC (link)
No, certainly not. Please read the "I decided, at age 17" paragraph (and especially the links therein) in the post above, and then the last three paragraphs (ditto). My entire tenure as a UU has been dotted with shocking experiences of seeing anti-atheist nastiness launched from the mouths and pens of nationally prominent UU ministers. (And watching rank-and-file UUs generally ignore it, or deny that it was a problem.)

It's just that, until recently, I thought I had escaped, and could continue to escape, such atheophobia in my home congregation. "Rev. Smith" proved me wrong. As I just wrote:
I came to Unitarian Universalism all too well aware of the atheophobia it contained, concerned about the treatment that my nonbeliefs would receive here. For seven years I found a niche where I could be a UU without having to suffer the nastiness I had seen in A Chosen Faith and related bigotries. With the introduction of my church’s interim minister and the community’s tacit response to her assaults, though, that niche seems to have closed.
That's why I'm bidding farewell.


(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sparkofcreation, 2008-06-19 03:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 06:54 pm UTC

[info]ellid
2008-06-19 12:28 am UTC (link)
I would like to see the whole text of that sermon. I have been a UU for nearly thirty years and have belonged to three congregations, and I have NEVER heard a sermon that sounded anything like that. I've also NEVER heard of this James Fowler fellow, and I have an MA in religion. What part of the country is this alleged steeplejacking taking place in?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

What Is SteepleJacking?
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 06:01 am UTC (link)
Just asking.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: What Is SteepleJacking? - [info]ellid, 2008-06-19 11:45 am UTC
Re: What Is SteepleJacking? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 08:50 pm UTC
Re: What Is SteepleJacking? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-23 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 03:07 pm UTC

[info]mercy_mild
2008-06-19 12:38 am UTC (link)
I wish you happiness in whatever you do. I hope that your experience of UUism wasn't entirely negative, and that the challenges you encountered helped you in the intellectual clarity you seem to be striving for. Please don't shut the door: I have visited more than one UU congregation where the ministers and overwhelming majority of membership is non-theist and alert to the problems you've explained. The role of UU religion is to provide a sense of community and belonging. I would hope that someday that's possible for you—and for others who share a certainty in the invention of deities—in a UU congregation.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 03:14 pm UTC (link)
Thanks, m_m. I appreciate it.


(BTW, my personal LJ isn't going away, though I suspect it will have substantially less specifically UU content on it from now on. The first order of business is going to be getting my former professor elected president!)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Please Do Not "Memory Hole" This Dr. Rieux - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 09:00 pm UTC
Re: Please Do Not "Memory Hole" This Dr. Rieux - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 09:22 pm UTC
Re: Please Do Not "Memory Hole" This Dr. Rieux - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 09:29 pm UTC

[info]jedimomma
2008-06-19 12:43 am UTC (link)
I have to concur with the comments from sparkofcreation and ellid.

Further, it seems strange in the extreme to me that an agnostic or atheist is having these sorts of problems at a UU church, but then every church is different. I've been a member of four different UU congregations across the U.S. (two in Indiana, one in Idaho and one in Alabama). I consistently met with more hostility towards deity-language and message than not. In fact, at least two of the ministers from the above congregations were professed atheists.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

I Told U*Us So. . .
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 05:58 am UTC (link)
"I consistently met with more hostility towards deity-language and message than not."

As will be clear from my lengthy response to Dr. Rieux's post, that has been my experience and that of rather too many other people. . . That does not mean however that there is zero-intolerance (if I may use that phrase) of atheists aka Humanists in U*U "churches". That being said, I have personally experienced, witnessed, or have otherwise been made aware of far more anti-religious intolerance and bigotry practiced by fundamentalist atheist "Humanist" U*Us against God believing people within the so-called U*U World than the flip side of that coin.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]sparkofcreation, 2008-06-19 03:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 04:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkofcreation, 2008-06-19 05:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 05:56 pm UTC
How Can I Forget? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 09:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 03:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 03:53 pm UTC

[info]vichan
2008-06-19 12:52 am UTC (link)
Wow.

I somewhat agree with you on 'A Chosen Faith,' I tend to look at that book almost as a part of our history - not the be-all, end-all book of UUism. We don't have a bible or a creed, and I'd like to keep it that way.

As for the rest? Have you looked at any other UU churches? I'm not sure what's in your area, but I would try looking at a different church before judging the entire religion on your experience at one.

What you're relating here is... well, I've seen exactly the opposite problem happen. A neighboring church has been through four different ministers in my memory. One of those four looked down on and spoke against anyone who WASN'T atheist, and also spoke out against being agnostic, even.

What people - and sometimes the ministers themselves - tend to forget is that the ministers are also just members of the church, just like everyone else. They can't forget the 4th principle. Sometimes they do.

But what my biggest problem with this is the fact that you seem to be basing most of your ire on an interim minister - a minister who is there for about a year in between settled minister, and then they move on. Sometimes they rock. Sometimes they suck.

I suggest talking to the search committee at the church about your concerns with the current interim minister. The search committee are the folks responsible for finding a settled minister. Perhaps they can take your concerns into mind when they are reviewing, making sure to find someone a bit more open-minded, and someone who won't preach this Fowler guy's teachings. (Personally, I've never heard of him, and I'm fairly active in a few different churches.)

Most of all, just keep in mind what Unitarian Universalism means - it's OKAY to disagree with people. If you have a problem with an individual church, leave the church. Reconsider leaving the UUA, because we're certainly not all bigots. ^_~

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]triadruid
2008-06-19 12:56 pm UTC (link)
Also, Interim Ministers often see it as their task to 'shake up' a congregation and stir the pot, to make sure everyone really gets out of their comfort zone and looks at their long-held beliefs and habits. It's an annoying, but sometimes useful, concept: Comfort the Afflicted, Afflict the Comfortable.

Dr. Rieux, I agree with you on one thing: trying to take Fowler's 1981 book as gospel is bunk. Good luck.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vichan, 2008-06-23 02:56 am UTC
I Think He Meant The Greater U*U "Community". . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-23 04:53 pm UTC
Re: I Think He Meant The Greater U*U "Community". . . - [info]vichan, 2008-06-23 05:30 pm UTC
Re: I Think He Meant The Greater U*U "Community" Part 1 - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-23 06:34 pm UTC
Re: I Think He Meant The Greater U*U "Community" Part 2 - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-23 06:36 pm UTC
Re: I Think He Meant The Greater U*U "Community" Part 3 - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-23 06:37 pm UTC

[info]napajohnb
2008-06-19 12:55 am UTC (link)
Atheophobia? Sheesh, I musta missed it. Was a time, not too long ago when secular humanist Unitarians were like sand at the beach in UU. I HAD noticed a few pods of theists popping up here and there, mostly pagan types actually, but certainly no atheophobia... I LIKE that word, kinda rolls off the tongue.

Well come back when you get off your snit. I gotta take a break from UU every once in awhile just to get out from under the cloud of unremitting earnestness that seems to hang over every congregation. Some days I just don't FEEL like saving the world!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hantastic
2008-06-19 01:51 am UTC (link)
I HAD noticed a few pods of theists popping up here and there, mostly pagan types actually, but certainly no atheophobia

Yes, this. I've seen the same!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

How About Aerophobia aka Aviophobia? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 05:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]triadruid, 2008-06-19 12:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]23tevet5745, 2008-06-19 02:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]napajohnb, 2008-06-19 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 06:56 pm UTC

[info]hantastic
2008-06-19 01:50 am UTC (link)
Unitarian Universalists cannot get away with firing outrageous personal insults like those at nearly any kind of minority--sexual minorities, ethnic minorities, traditional-religious (and for that matter nontraditional-religious) minorities--but they can get away with firing them at me.

Meh...blanket statements like this one make me itchy. As for the minister and congregation you're dealing with, I think you've found one of few exceptions that break the rules (principles?) because I've never in my life heard of a UU church like the one(s) you're describing. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just surprised to hear about them and also sorry they've driven you from UUism. I wish you luck!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

The Silence Of The U*Us. . .
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 05:48 am UTC (link)
Perhaps one of the reasons that you have never heard of a U*U Church like the one Dr. Rieux is dealing with is because, as his post makes clear, U*Us are pretty good at silencing critics in various ways. . .

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The Silence Of The U*Us. . . - [info]triadruid, 2008-06-19 12:49 pm UTC
Re: The Silence Of The U*Us. . . - [info]hantastic, 2008-06-19 01:06 pm UTC
Re: The Silence Of The U*Us. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 07:45 pm UTC
Re: The Silence Of The U*Us. . . - [info]hantastic, 2008-06-19 07:52 pm UTC
Bon Appetit! - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 08:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hantastic, 2008-06-19 05:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 06:12 pm UTC
Dare I Say. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 07:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mercy_mild, 2008-06-19 11:21 pm UTC
Pay Attention To This. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 12:47 am UTC
Re: Pay Attention To This. . . - [info]mercy_mild, 2008-06-20 01:54 am UTC
Re: Pay Attention To This. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 03:02 am UTC
Re: Pay Attention To This. . . - [info]mercy_mild, 2008-06-20 04:13 pm UTC
Re: Pay Attention To This. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 07:42 pm UTC
A U*U Problem - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 08:23 pm UTC

[info]scarcrest
2008-06-19 01:53 am UTC (link)
I've no idea where you live, but it saddens me to see you having this experience. Chances are very small that you'd live near an Ethical Society, but if you do, you should check them out -- from what I've seen, the Ethical Culture movement is far heavily weighted toward atheism than is UUism.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 04:48 pm UTC (link)
I'll take a look--thanks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]melengro
2008-06-19 02:03 am UTC (link)
All religions and all denominations have congregations that are less tolerant than others. In traditional religions the problem comes when you disagree about how to apply Roman-Empire period meditative texts to modern life, or when you're stupid enough to take parables seriously (especially since most of Jesus's parables were deliberately intended to shock). In Unitarian Universalism the problem comes when you try to cordon off inherently psychotic worldviews, such as Nazism or State Shinto, without casting aspersions on others, such as Asatru or Folk Shinto. Lumping atheism in with internally inconsistent or externally unpracticable worldviews may be a legitimate exercise or it may not. It may have some explanation other than 'atheophobia' (which is actually quite a fine word!) or it may not. In any case it has no place in Unitarian Universalism.

My minister takes a vaguely Christian line. Most of the congregation trends towards Eastern religions. There are a few other Christians, a few atheists, and a few kitchen-sink syncretists (like me, for instance). It appears to me that you stumbled upon a particularly unpleasant and NON-representative Unitarian Universalist community. Sorry.

(Side-note: if Unitarian Universalism is too 'atheophobic' for you, how sensitive about it ARE you?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

re: Side-Note
[info]triadruid
2008-06-19 12:51 pm UTC (link)
Very. There's a series of previous posts in this community where he accuses us of not recognizing the inherent atheophobia of the world, or the UUA.

On the flip side, I've been told explicitly that there's no place for God in the UUA, much less "gods". This is what comes of being creedless... they'll let UUs say any damn thing. ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Side-Note - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 06:34 pm UTC

[info]uu_mom
2008-06-19 02:49 am UTC (link)
I hate that UUs are "lovers of leaving" and just take off whenever there's a disagreement. Whenever things don't go well in my church, I work to turn things around. It's the congregation's church, not the minister's. Don't talk about it in an online forum, talk about it in a live forum where you can really air your concerns, but in a reasonable way - debating the theory - James Fowler and atheophobia (I like that word). It's my church and no one is going to come in and take it away from me and if they do, I'll go to another one or create another one. I'm a UU no matter what. That's what I'd do.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Does That Mean That I Am Not A U*U UUMom?
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 05:37 am UTC (link)
I'll take it as a compliment if that's the case. . .

"I hate that UUs are "lovers of leaving" and just take off whenever there's a disagreement."

Be assured that I did not "just take off" as a result of the "disagreement" that I encountered within U*Uism. No shortage of U*Us subtly ort not so subtly delivered the message, "If you don't like it why don't you leave?" Lot's of other people have gotten that message from U*Us when they have shared their concerns about various problems with their U*U "church" or the larger U*U religious community. I tried to stay and work within the system to resolve the injustices, abuses and hypocrisy that I encountered by I was shoved out by U*Us who, as Dr. Rieux says. . . are more inclined to get rid of people who complain than deal responsibly with what they are complaining about.

BTW I will get around to responding to you on your blog but I has other priorities and it slipped off my radar for a while. Amongst other things I was having loads of fun making LOL U*U graphics. ;-)

http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2008/06/lol-uus.html

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Does That Mean That I Am Not A U*U UUMom? - [info]uu_mom, 2008-06-19 06:54 pm UTC
Re: Does That Mean That I Am Not A U*U UUMom? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 09:23 pm UTC
Re: Does That Mean That I Am Not A U*U UUMom? - [info]uu_mom, 2008-06-20 01:03 am UTC
Re: Does That Mean That I Am Not A U*U UUMom? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 04:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]uu_mom, 2008-06-19 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 07:02 pm UTC
But U*Us Love Leavers. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 10:12 pm UTC
Re: But U*Us Love Leavers. . . - [info]uu_mom, 2008-06-20 01:10 am UTC
Re: But U*Us Love Leavers. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 02:32 am UTC
You're so hypocritical!, Robin Edgar - [info]uu_mom, 2008-06-20 07:44 pm UTC
Re: Hypocracy all around! - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 08:54 pm UTC
Re: Hypocracy all around! - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 09:04 pm UTC

[info]belle_elphaba
2008-06-19 03:25 am UTC (link)
I'm so sorry that you've had these negative experiences within your congregation, and I hope that whatever you choose from here, that you find complete happiness. I do hope that you try to work it out with your congregation, or maybe even try to find another congregation. But whatever you decide, just remember to be who you are. :)

(Reply to this)


[info]gotopatagonia
2008-06-19 03:29 am UTC (link)
At the Bay County UU in Florida, a guest preacher said that "fundamentalism is a cancer in the side of organized religion." I was never so furious as when he said that. If we don't have fundamentalists who are truly devoted to their religion (and you can be a fundamentalist who loves everyone all the same), who serves as a role model? I wouldn't want some half-time follower being my mentor in a church.

I agree with you. Your minister appears to be a threat to your spiritual (and personal, I suppose) well-being. Good luck in finding a new path! :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

What About Fundamentalist Artheist U*Us?
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 05:45 am UTC (link)
Well AFAIAC intolerant and abusive fundamentalist atheist "Humanist" U*Us are a cancer in the side of the "tiny dwindling fringe religion"* now known as U*Uism. In fact I expect that it is the continuing presence of toxic fundie atheists in toom many U*U "churches" that has caused U*Uism to remain a "tiny fringe religion".

*You can thank candidate for President of the UUA Rev. Peter Morales for that rather unflattering, but all too realistic, description of U*Uism.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: What About Fundamentalist Artheist U*Us? - [info]gotopatagonia, 2008-06-19 01:34 pm UTC
Re: What About Fundamentalist Artheist U*Us? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 05:56 pm UTC
Re: What About Fundamentalist Artheist U*Us? - [info]gotopatagonia, 2008-06-20 01:23 am UTC
Re: What About Fundamentalist Artheist U*Us? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 03:16 am UTC
Re: What About Fundamentalist Artheist U*Us? - [info]gotopatagonia, 2008-06-20 03:24 am UTC
U*U Total Hypocrites - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 04:28 am UTC

[info]gamerchick
2008-06-19 03:39 am UTC (link)
I'm 99% certain that the OP and I attend the same church and I would just like to take this opportunity to stick up for my faith community. The idea that it is being steeplejacked, or that the interim minister is representative of the whole congregation's views on nontheists, is not consistent with my experience there. If [info]dr_rieux is who I suspect he is, I will be sad to see him leave, but I also support him in his decision.

For the record, I am staunchly polytheistic, and I'm not a fan of our current interim minister either. I was in the congregation for the sermon of which the OP speaks and felt rather offended by it as well. It's not just the atheists in the congregation who have noticed, and I will be making my concerns known to the search committee.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 05:18 pm UTC (link)
Whoa--I guess I've been spotted....

I definitely don't think that "Rev. Smith" is "representative of [my] whole congregation's views on nontheists." If she were, I would have left years ago--long before she ever arrived. My sense is that the vast majority of members of the congregation are not haters.

My frustration with the congregation is that I haven't seen any critical reaction to Rev. Smith's nastiness. It seems to me that the minister's actions (it wasn't just that sermon, BTW, though that was the most concentrated ugliness she's thrown out there) deserve some public dissent. And I've tried, but there just didn't seem to be much interest. I guess, given the potency of what she has preached, that I expect better.

As for the search committee, go get 'em, gamerchick. I'm glad that that's your plan.



(BTW, gc, do you think I'm doing the right thing trying to keep the minister and the congregation as anonymous as I can? This isn't really about her, and the congregation in question is, again, not a bunch of haters. They're mostly ordinary folks prone to inertia and some denial, perhaps, but not nasty schmucks. And on other issues I'm sure I'm sometimes "prone to inertia and some denial" myself. Anyway, I hope the church in question doesn't need too much "sticking up for," given that I haven't named it. :-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]gamerchick, 2008-06-20 01:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-20 03:30 pm UTC
What's That Smell? ;-)
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 05:15 am UTC (link)
Hi Dr. Rieux,

I am sorry to hear that you have decided to pack it in but you are in good company. . . A handful of U*U bloggers have decided to leave the U*U fold for various reasons over the past year or so and have blogged about it. I will respond to your post point-by-point below -

:After seven years in the UU world, I've decided that I can no longer in good conscience call myself a Unitarian Universalist, and that I need to resign my membership in my local UU church. In the long and hallowed tradition of GBCW posts, though, I need to explain why--and so you can follow me below the fold if you're interested.

I'm definitely interested. Interestingly enough I recently submitted a post to another U*U blog which said the following -

if a person's conscience finds cause for objection to any or all of the Seven Principles of U*Uism that person should not join a U*U congregation that "covenants" (i.e. solemnly promises) to "affirm and promote" those principles. Doing so not only compromises the "covenants" of the congregation but even compromises the conscience of the individual. N'est-ce pas Ogre? In other words, anyone who disagrees with any of the Seven Principles of U*Uism can best exercise their individual right of conscience by having the personal integrity to not choose U*Uism as their "chosen faith".

I understand that you probably have no problem with the Seven Principles of U*Uism but it does seem that you are responsibly exercising your right of conscience for other reasons. I am certainly with you on that. For the record that comment was suppressed by the owner of the U*U blog that I submitted it to. Par for the course. . .

:My most recent post on my personal LJ contained an essay that I composed with the intention of putting it up on my UU church’s online discussion forum. (snip) My concern arises because it’s very clear that Fowler has nothing but bile and condescension for nontheistic and irreligious ways of seeing the world--which, unfortunately, hasn’t prevented several UU ministers from deciding that his theory is terrific. (It’s not; it’s heavily bigoted, and its pretensions to verifiable social science are absurd.) Most troubling of all is that some of these UU ministers have picked up on Fowler’s insulting attacks on atheists and other kinds of nonbelievers and are using his theory as an excuse to repeat these same attacks. My essay communicates my alarm at this development.

OK I am totally unfamiliar with Fowler, nor am I aware of U*U ministers repeating whatever his attacks are. I am not disputing your claim. I am just saying I am totally unaware of that situation. Could you please provide some concrete examples of what you are alleging here?

:On the other hand, one friend of mine (who also happens to be a member of the Ministerial Selection Committee that is currently searching for a new settled minister for our church) responded to my Fowler essay by writing me to recommend strongly that I not post it. In the message my friend confidently predicted that, if I published the piece, it would provoke “a big fight” on the online forum and perhaps off of it.

Knowing what I know of the U*U community I would say that your friend was probably right about that. Not that that's right if you catch my drift. . .


:I have no doubt that this friend of mine meant entirely well. And there’s a better-than-even chance that his prediction was correct; if my fellow parishioners had figured out that one of the Fowler-loving UU ministers I quote repeatedly in the essay happens to be our current interim minister (in her October 2007 sermon that I’ve posted here), there could indeed have been trouble.

More like there *would* indeed have been trouble. . .

:For one thing, forum rules forbid criticism of our ministers--

Why am I not surprised? It does seem that criticism of ministers is all but verbotten in U*Uism. Here is some U*U foot-in-mouth disease from your good friend Rev. Dr. John A* Buehrens -

"You lack a basic understanding of, and respect for, the procedures of a democratically governed religious community. The minister, having been chosen by that community, is not to be publicly attacked."

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: What's That Smell? ;-)
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 05:22 am UTC (link)
I dare say that it is former UUA President John Buehrens who apparently lacks an understanding of democracy. . . Imagine if he had said, "The President of the USA, having been elected by Americans, is not to be publicly attacked." Rev. John Buehrens would appear to be what I call a Totalitarian Unitarian.

There is in fact an Omerta-like code of silence written into the UUMA guidelines whereby a U*U minister can find themselves in a spot of trouble if they openly criticize another U*U minister. In fact I have heard of U*U ministers getting in trouble for openly discussing embarrassing problems within U*Uism such as clergy sexual misconduct for example.

Censorship and suppression of criticism of ministers, or indeed other U*U "church" leaders, seems to be all too common in the U*U World.

:and even if they didn’t, I imagine that some of my neighbors think she’s worth defending. I tried to direct my ire at James Fowler, an outsider, rather than anyone that a casual reader would realize was much closer to home; but a few people probably would have seen through it.

No kidding. . .

:Anyway, at my friend’s strenuous urging, I decided not to post my Fowler essay on the church forum. But the reason I demurred--the threatened “fight”--rankled. It still does.

As it should.

:The first year of the tenure of my church’s interim minister has alienated me fairly significantly from the church: since I heard the infamous sermon

Could you please direct us to it if it is available online?

:(which is not the only issue--“Rev. Smith” has reiterated her ugly notions about nonbelieving people and our ideals in various other forums, including a few choice potshots in other sermons), I have ended my five-year tenure in the church choir and decided that I could no longer attend her services.

Could you please provide some examples of her "ugly notions" and "choice potshots"?

:These decisions were weeks old by the time I composed the post above and circulated it to friends in the congregation. But in that context, “It’ll cause a big fight” feels like the last straw.

Aw c'mon "a big fight" can be loads of fun. I oughta know. ;-)

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22Robin+Edgar%22+big+fight+with+Unitarians.+.+.&btnG=Google+Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en%7Clang_fr

:An interim minister is one thing--in 2009, Rev. Smith will move on to lecture some other church about the worthlessness of those of us who don’t share her beliefs--but the congregation is another matter. The same congregation that has raised nary a peep of protest about the minister’s shameful mistreatment of religious minorities but would (if my Search Committee friend is correct) fight me for protesting such mistreatment--that congregation will still be here when Smith is gone.

Indeed it will. As you well know the alleged Unitarian Church of Montreal chose to fight me for sharing my concerns about its fundamentalist atheist "Humanist" minister’s shameful mistreatment of me and other religious people. It does seem that Unitarian*Universalists are rather overprotective of their intolerant and abusive clergy (and other church leaders) and prefer to treat victims of intolerance and abuse who dare to complain as "troublemakers". In fact a young "person of color" recently told me about similar treatment and I blogged about it here -

http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2008/06/montreal-unitarianuniversalist-uus-are.html

:I’m less than convinced that it’s going to be comfortable to be part of that congregation anytime soon. I thought, during the years that our clergy were kind and respectful UUs, that my congregation would stand up and protest if atheophobia ever started issuing from the pulpit--but it appears that I was wrong.

Looks that way Dr. Rieux. OTOH it does seem to have more to do with U*U "church" social dynamics and "politics" than the specific issues involved. It seems that it doesn't really matter what you complain about. If you complain about a U*U minister or other "church" leader you can expect to have your complaint dismissed and yourself attacked as a "troublemaker".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: What's That Smell? Part III - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 05:24 am UTC
Re: What's That Smell? Part IV - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 05:26 am UTC
Re: What's That Smell? Part IV - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 05:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 05:23 pm UTC
Maybe You Should Have Taken Up My "Tag Team" Offer. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 07:45 pm UTC

[info]phoam909
2008-06-19 07:13 am UTC (link)
I can't say I'm surprised. I hope the atheist organization you're looking at is a better fit for you, and allows you to be more more yourself and less the perpetual victim.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Your heartfelt concern is overwhelming.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Battery Will Get U*Us Nowhere. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 10:38 pm UTC

[info]tbuitenh
2008-06-19 10:51 am UTC (link)
I can understand why you are leaving, and why others who have met intolerance have done the same before you. I wish you good luck.

But I can't help being surprised. Intolerance within UU? That is news that would be accompanied by a weather forecast predicting temperatures in hell to reach an all time low, and showers of, um, well, coming from flying pigs. I mean, why would anyone who clearly doesn't apply the first four principles to themselves want to consider themselves a UU? It just doesn't make sense.

But I guess there must be a few intolerants after all. Sad.
By leaving you give them what they want.
Also, (this is directed to someone else, you know who you are) by spewing hate against UU in general after leaving one does them a huge favor, it makes their intolerance look justified.

This kind of situation is not normal in UU, and you can be sure that if anything like it ever happens within my sphere of influence, I'll do something about it. Otherwise, I wouldn't be a true UU myself, now would I?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 07:10 pm UTC (link)
I appreciate the sentiments; thanks.

(I have to admit that I'm very curious who the "someone else" is.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Presumably That "Someone Else" Is Yours Truly. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 07:25 pm UTC
Re: Presumably That "Someone Else" Is Yours Truly. . . - [info]tbuitenh, 2008-06-20 09:23 am UTC
Re: Presumably That "Someone Else" Is Yours Truly. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 04:48 am UTC
Part 2 of above response - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 04:49 am UTC
Re: Part 2 of above response - [info]tbuitenh, 2008-06-21 09:05 am UTC
What's the diff? - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 05:42 pm UTC
Re: Presumably That "Someone Else" Is Yours Truly. . . - [info]tbuitenh, 2008-06-21 08:59 am UTC
Re: Presumably That "Someone Else" Is Yours Truly. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 05:07 pm UTC
There Are More "Intolerants" Than U*Us Might Think - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 07:17 pm UTC
is it within my influence? really? - [info]tbuitenh, 2008-06-20 09:39 am UTC
Yes, really. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 05:01 am UTC
Re: Yes, really. . . - [info]tbuitenh, 2008-06-21 09:53 am UTC
Re: Yes, really. . . Part 1 - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 06:22 pm UTC
Re: Yes, really. . . Part 1 - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 06:23 pm UTC

[info]darkwolf69
2008-06-19 01:11 pm UTC (link)
IMO, it's going to vary from church to church. My church is actually more atheistic/humanistic than anything else- the faux pas here is to talk about God. ;-) I would advise you to check out other UU churches before abandoning the idea entirely. But, whatever you choose to do, good luck.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

The God Faux Pas. . .
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 06:39 pm UTC (link)
I would say that the faux-pas of talking about God (other than in negative terms of course. . .) is rather more common within the U*U World than the situation that Dr. Rieux has described here. I have personally experienced, and witnessed first hand, plenty of anti-religious intolerance and bigotry on the part of fundamentalist atheist "Humanist" U*Us at the Unitarian Church of Montreal and online; but I have also seen plenty of other first hand testimony from other people who have encountered such anti-religious intolerance in all parts of the U*U World. It should not be necessary for people to engage in "church hopping" to find a U*U "church" where they are not treated as second-class citizens in the U*U World or worse. . . Especially since due to the fact that U*Uism is so "tiny", not to mention "dwindling. . ." there is often no other U*U "church" that a person can hop to in any case. The U*U habit of suggesting that marginalized people try to find a more welcoming U*U congregation does nothing to solve the problem of marginalization and victimization of people by U*U "churches". It is little different to the marginalizers and victimizers saying, "If you don't like it why don't you leave?" Which is exactly what they want. . . N'est-ce pas? Sorry but AFAIAC U*Us have to get off their hypocritical butts and start dealing responsibly with U*U ministers and U*U "churches" that marginalize or victimize people in various ways. U*Us purport to affirm and promote justice, equity and compassion in human relations and make a big show of condemning injustices and abuses that take place outside of the so-called U*U World but they do little or nothing to responsibly address and adequately redress internal injustices and abuses when they are brought to their attention. More often than not they join in the game of further marginalizing and victimizing the victim, including engaging in no shortage of victim blaming. Dr. Rieux and other victims of marginalization by U*Us do not need "good luck" what they need is "good U*Us" to stand up and speak out and demand that the U*U "church" that is victimizing them or otherwise marginalizing them clean up its act. I have yet to see U*Us do that in any of the numerous cases of victimization and marginalization that I am aware of including my own. . . How is it possible that for more than a decade I can publicly protest against egregious anti-religious intolerance and bigotry on the part of abusive "Humanist" U*Us, as well as related injustices such as repeated expulsions and legal harassment for complaining and protesting, and U*Us U*U Worldwide can just ignore my legitimate grievances and do absolutely nothing to ensure that they are finally addressed and redressed. Thousands of U*Us have done an excellent job of illustrating the validity of Edmund Burke's bon mot "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. . ." Of course this calls into question just how good U*Us really are.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The God Faux Pas. . . - [info]darkwolf69, 2008-06-19 07:27 pm UTC

[info]tonytraductor
2008-06-19 01:40 pm UTC (link)
This kind of news always shocks me.
Here, I would say there are far more atheist and/or agnostic humanist types in the local UU circles than anything else, with smatterings of pagans, buddhists (well...many buddhists are atheists, too), deists, bahai, etc....but, mostly atheists.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

A Shock To The U*U System. . .
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-19 07:07 pm UTC (link)
So may I presume that you would not be shocked to here of intolerant atheist U*Us marginalizing and victimizing theist U*Us?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: A Shock To The U*U System. . . - [info]tonytraductor, 2008-06-19 09:02 pm UTC
Re: A Shock To The U*U System. . . - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 10:18 pm UTC
Seriously?
[info]queerpanda8
2008-06-19 02:01 pm UTC (link)
"For one thing, forum rules forbid criticism of our ministers--and even if they didn’t..."

Really? I've been a UU for 13 years and I can honestly say that I've never heard of a "rule" that prevented the criticism of our ministers. In fact, I've been encouraged in just the opposite way. Ministers are humans, fallible humans at that, and as such should be held to the same standard as anyone in the congregation. UU's talk a lot about "coming to the table" "holding people and ourselves accountable", but yet we so often are terrified of conflict and/or have no framework to deal with disagreements when they arise that instead we leave. In that leaving, we leave the problem and remain no closer to a solution.

Please don't mistake me, I have been on the recieiving end of critisim and harmful words within this community, and I too sometimes need to take a break. I honor and respect your need to step away from UUism, but I beg you...please don't leave the table with dirty dishes. Take your concerns to the appropriate people within the congregation...attempt to exercise your right to question and your responsiblity to call-out injustice. If for no other reason than to be able to say to all the nay-sayers, "I did everything I could and it was time for me to leave."

Good luck in your journey, and may it be filled with light and love.

Our congregations are guilty of many things, and have caused much pain to the ones we should hold the closest...it is by the works of those people that have the courage to stand up and to speak in rational and compassionate terms that things do change.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Seriously?
[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 05:32 pm UTC (link)
For one thing, forum rules forbid criticism of our ministers--and even if they didn’t....

Really? I've been a UU for 13 years and I can honestly say that I've never heard of a "rule" that prevented the criticism of our ministers.
Just on that forum. If someone wanted to criticize the ministers in the church building after a service, or in a committee meeting, or in a letter or e-mail to other congregants or something, that's not against any rules. But the moderator of the online forum is fairly adamant that it not be used to go after the ministers. (I gather that that rule was the product of battles that predate my membership. I know that there were some pretty crazy scandals involving clergy--though not really theology--a few years before I showed up.)

And I have tried to clear my dishes, thanks. :-) I've exchanged (long) e-mails with the president of the congregation, as well as with two members of the search committee that will be choosing the new settled minister. As a result, my concerns are well known at the church.

Thanks for your nice comment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Oops! - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 03:14 am UTC
Re: Oops! - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-20 06:51 am UTC
Re: Oops! - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 07:15 pm UTC

[info]ferndalealex
2008-06-19 04:52 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry that you have been pushed out of this one congregation, and sincerely hope you continue participating here because there are people who appreciate your points and opinions.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-19 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Aw, Alex, you're just unhappy that you won't have Nixon to kick around anymore. ;-) :-)

Farewell.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ferndalealex, 2008-06-19 07:27 pm UTC
Smileys! Smileys! - [info]dr_rieux, 2008-06-19 08:29 pm UTC
Re: Smileys! Smileys! - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-19 10:34 pm UTC
Re: Smileys! Smileys! - [info]ferndalealex, 2008-06-19 11:59 pm UTC
A lrager question?
[info]arbitrarymarks
2008-06-19 11:15 pm UTC (link)
Dr. Rieux, I created an LJ account to reply to your post (I blogged a bit about it here.

Do you think that the problem is primarily about views on nontheists, or do you have a larger problem with the way that pluralism functions in Unitarian Universalism? At least for me, while I can appreciate that some people want to talk about "god" and "light" and "spirit", etc., I find that emptying these terms of definition can wind up frustrating the theists and nontheists alike.

Personally, I'm just not finding a need for a weekly worship-centered meeting, but have enjoyed UUism as a social outlet. So I'll probably just drift away, find some like-minded folks and return with my wife (who isn't burdened with being a cantankerous philosophy major like me!)

Thoughts?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: A larger question?
[info]dr_rieux
2008-06-20 06:44 am UTC (link)
I left a longer response at your blog, AM, but as a relatively quick answer:
At least for me, while I can appreciate that some people want to talk about "god" and "light" and "spirit", etc., I find that emptying these terms of definition can wind up frustrating the theists and nontheists alike.
Yes, I'm no fan of that definitional approach either. (And my insistence that discomfort with the approach ought to be tolerated within UUism has occasionally made me unpopular on this LiveJournal.)

But no, I don't have a problem with UU pluralism. I think it's fine (indeed, valuable) that UUism includes lots of people whose beliefs differ from mine. Frankly, that has made UU groups all the more worthwhile to me as "social outlets."

What I can't stand is the powerful people in the Association who think it's acceptable to treat us atheists in an absolutely disgusting manner--and the (far larger number of) UUs who look the other way and refuse to see the problem in their own leadership. I've just decided I can't take that anymore.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: But U*Us Love Leavers. . .
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-20 08:45 pm UTC (link)
>I reserve the right to return abuse for abuse

:You are so hypocritical.

If I clearly state that I reserve the right to return abuse for abuse I am hardly being hypocritical UUMom. I might add that I only adopted that policy after suffering repeated insults, defamation, and verbal abuse at the hands of Unitarian*Universalist U*Us. I adopted that policy in the hope that by returning abuse for abuse, usually by making intolerant and abusive U*Us chow down on their own offensive words. . . that U*Us would realize just how offensive they can be and modify their offensive and abusive behavior.

:And you say you don't like to be blocked so you don't block on your site, but I was blocked. My comment was blocked when I went to post the following on "The Emerson Avenger" where he says "This blog will "guard the right to know" about any injustices and abuses that corrupt Unitarian Universalism."

I have no idea how your comment was "blocked" but I was not responsible for that. It was either some kind of Blogger technical glitch or some kind of error on your part. The Emerson Avenger blog is completely unmoderated although I reserve the right to move SPAM comments, completely off-topic comments, or particularly offensive comments to the U*U Hole where they may still be read by anyone who wants to read them.

http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2006/12/uu-hole-brought-to-uus-uu-world-wide-by.html

:My reply that was blocked:

It was not "blocked'. Try reposting it to the appropriate thread. I do believe that a previous comment that you submitted got through without any problem and I am unaware of any other comments that have not been posted due to technical problems or errors on the part of the commenters. To my knowledge every comment that has been submitted to The Emerson Avenger blog, with one notable exception, is visible on the blog to anyone who wants to read it including plenty of offensive and abusive comments submitted by hypocritical U*Us. . .

>What you call a "democratic process " others would call "mob rule" or a "kangaroo court".

:That has NOT been my experience. I find most UU process quite fair.

Well it has been MY experience UUMom and the experience of no shortage of other people. Quite frankly my picket sign slogan that said -

TOTALITARIAN CHURCH OF MONTREAL

was highly justified by the undemocratic and anti-democratic words and actions of Montreal Unitarian U*Us. I might add that the UUA has behaved in an obviously arbitrary and authoritarian manner as well.

:>How "democratic" was the decision to permanently ban me from all UUA sponsored list serves Jouce? How many people voted? Just a few UUA appointed "moderators" ak a censors as far as I can tell. .

:That's right. Listservs are not subject to the democratic process - they have rules.

ROTFLMU*UO! Thanks for just acknowledging that at least some parts of the U*U World are "not subject to the democratic process". . . Quite frankly that is a ridiculous statement. The last time I checked U*U "churches" have rules, the UUA has rules, the Ministerial Fellowship Committee has rules, the UUMA has rules etc. etc. etc. So does this mean that they are "not subject to the democratic process"? I dare say that in m y experience this would appear to be all too true. . . U*Us can't have it both ways UUMom but God knows that they try. . .

:The rules went through a long process to make sure they were fair. I was part of that process. You consistently broke the rule to "stay on topic" on several lists.

Wrong. I was almost always on topic to the basic principles or ideas being discussed. U*Us disingenuously narrowed the definition of what the topic was in order to censor me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Response to UUMom's Hypocrisy Accusation Part 2
[info]robinedgar
2008-06-20 08:48 pm UTC (link)
:That is rude behavior and fills up people's mail boxes with unwanted messages. I was a silent member on some of those listservs and I moderated others. I had to take away your posting priveleges on one listserv, but my co-moderator did it on another.

You did not *have* to do anything UUMom. You *chose* to do it. And I take note of the fact that you did so pretty much unilaterally. Hardly "democratic" is it UUMom? More like bureaucratic if not autocratic. . .

:You always talked about yourself and this circumstance of yours.

What? You have forgotten about the various other U*U injustices, abuses and hypocrisy I talked about on UU listserves?

:They tried just putting your posting privileges on hold, but that didn't work and you persisted on other lists and when your privileges were reinstated, you did the same.

Why should I shut up about U*U injustices, abuses and hypocrisy UUMom? Simply because such messages are "unwanted" by you and other U*Us? I think not. . .

:You're doing the same now on every UU forum I've ever found that isn't heavily moderated.

Thank you for so publicly acknowledging that a good number of UU forums, especially UUA controlled ones are "heavily moderated", aka heavily censored. . . UUMom.

:I don't know of anyone else that has persisted in this kind of behavior.

Well as Dr. Rieux pointed out most other people have less "stamina" than me. Most others give up and leave after a while. . . Which is precisely why U*Us so egregiously stonewall, or otherwise "fight" people who complain about U*U injustices, abuses and hypocrisy. The reason I have persisted is because U*Us have obstinately refused to responsibly redress the injustices and abuses that I am exposing and denouncing. If U*Us did the right thing and responsibly acknowledged their injustices and abuses, and lived up to U*U principles that call for justice, equity and compassion in human relations rather than flaunting them and repeatedly violating them I would not need to be so persistent would I? The reason that I persist in my kind of ehaviour is because U*Us persisted in *this* kind of behavior. . .

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Unitarian*Universalist+clergy+misconduct&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en%7Clang_fr

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Unitarian*Universalist+injustices+and+abuses+&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en%7Clang_fr

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Anti-religious+Unitarian*Universalists+&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en%7Clang_fr

:In response to this, where I use my real name "Joyce":
http://emersonavenger.blogspot.com/2 008/06/lol-uus.html

As I said. You had no problem posting earlier. Nothing has changed in terms of how to post.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Response to UUMom's Hypocrisy Accusation Part 3 - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-20 08:48 pm UTC
Re: Response to UUMom's Hypocrisy Accusation Part 3 - [info]robinedgar, 2008-06-21 06:32 pm UTC

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