joye the obscured ([info]dustthouart) wrote in [info]catholicism,
@ 2005-10-29 17:13:00
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Current mood: hungry
Current music:Hamasaki Ayumi - fairyland

some thoughts from a girl going through RCIA
I think I'm going to become a Muslim. I'll still believe all the things I do now, but I'll refer to myself as a Muslim, and I'll get really offended when anyone says "Um, you don't believe what Muslims believe... so you're not a Muslim."
I'll throw a hissy fit and be like, "How can you judge me? My Allah is a God of LOVE. He doesn't mind if I believe that Jesus is God."
"Um... but Islam teaches... that he totally isn't."
"You're so NARROW-MINDED!"
[/pretending]
This is how I feel when people post comments in Catholic communities that say things like "I'm a Catholic but I don't think premarital sex is wrong" or "You can be actively homosexual and Catholic, God made you that way!"
*bangs head on desk*

Catholicism has a book that defines each and every issue that is important and tells what the truth is. If you disagree with something in the Catechism, you're not Catholic, any more than I'm a Muslim. Simply by promoting heretical ideas, you're taking yourself out of communion with the Church. The beliefs of the Church work only as a unit. The radical affirmation of the Church is that the Holy Spirit personally upholds the the truth of the magisterium of the Church, and that her teachings on faith and morals are infallible for the current time and all time. Note that I said "faith and morals" only. Obviously, there have been terrible popes and mistakes made in running the church, but the Church's teaching on faith and morals has never been tampered with.
If you do disagree with something, you need to first really find out what the Church teaches about it and why the Church teaches it. You may be surprised and edified. CCD and Catholic schooling have fallen miserably short in Catechesis, especially in North America. Being Catholic means trusting that the Holy Spirit has guaranteed the truth. If my individual human understanding can't understand the reasoning, as a Catholic I need to submit to the Church in all manners concerning faith and morals.
The authoritative place to go is, of course, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you can find online at the Vatican website. A really great place to go to ask questions and learn is Phatmass. Not only do they have a great collection of articles about every aspect of Catholic belief, but they have a forum where anyone can ask a question but only can certain educated and orthodox Catholics answer.
If you ultimately decide that you won't submit to the Church's teaching, but you still want to be Christian, you can go be a Protestant. Protestants just deal with the Bible, but they can interpret it any way they want, or even say that parts of it don't matter, because there is no ultimate authority over Protestantism. There are lots of different kinds of Protestantism, so no matter what your beliefs become, there's probably a denomination for you. And if there isn't you can make a new denomination!
If you just like the pretty pretty ritual parts of Catholicism, you can go be an Anglican. It's Diet Catholicism, basically. Similar taste, without any of that hard to swallow DOCTRINE.
Obviously I believe that Catholicism is the one true way, that every human should submit to the Church as Christ himself commanded. But I can't lie and say that it's alright to call purple blue or lies truth. Too many people are led astray by heretical ideas and never realize what they're being taught is heresy. If someone cannot believe in Catholicism truly, it is better that he or she disavow the Catholic label and take on the Protestant one and not lead others astray.




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[info]vonjunzt
2005-10-29 09:28 pm UTC (link)
The Catechism, though, is not infallible doctrine.

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[info]dustthouart
2005-10-29 09:38 pm UTC (link)
The catechism is infallible according to the ordinary universal episcopal magisterium as it teaches truths definitively that are in the realm of faith and morals and held by bishops around the world throughout time.

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(no subject) - [info]vonjunzt, 2005-10-29 09:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 09:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gordoom, 2005-10-29 09:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lookingland, 2005-10-29 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gordoom, 2005-10-29 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]badsede, 2005-10-30 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vonjunzt, 2005-10-29 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ramy_al_hakim, 2005-10-30 03:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]badsede, 2005-10-30 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-30 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]badsede, 2005-10-30 02:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gordoom, 2005-10-29 09:54 pm UTC

[info]ein_suender
2005-10-29 09:33 pm UTC (link)
Ouch. You sound kind of bitter. :( How come?

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[info]dustthouart
2005-10-29 09:40 pm UTC (link)
Actually I'm a pretty happy person. It saddens me that so few people know the truth, and of course it saddens me even more when people who do know the truth reject it. Jesus got pissed off too by money changers in the temple, so I hold him as my example for heavenly anger.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-29 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elena23, 2005-10-29 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-29 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-29 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-29 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-29 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-29 10:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ramy_al_hakim, 2005-10-30 03:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napoleonofnerds, 2005-10-30 02:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-29 10:30 pm UTC
As someone else in this community once said... - [info]mikejj, 2005-10-30 05:28 am UTC
Re: As someone else in this community once said... - [info]sistermeg, 2005-10-30 11:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 01:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-29 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gordoom, 2005-10-29 10:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-29 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eggtray, 2005-10-30 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eggtray, 2005-10-30 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 08:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 03:49 am UTC

[info]soliano
2005-10-29 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Please, Anglicanism is Catholic Lite, not Diet Catholicism.

One needs to keep in mind that Jesus did not write the catechism. Learned men did and despite guidance from the Spirit, they could have been wrong. (I would mention the inquisition at this point.) I believe that there are many individuals who consider themselves Roman Catholic who have issues with some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and believe that, after much meditation and soul searching, that they are justified in their concern. Right now the Episcopal Church is going through a mess based upon guidance from the Spirit, so what one calls guidance from the spirit may be called error by another. Luther had some good points (indulgences). I agree that it is important to separate the wheat from the chaff, but I believe it is more important to worry less about what someone else calls themselves than to walk on one own's journey and each day strive to be better.

As far as liturgy goes, I have heard folks say the Anglican Liturgy (BCP) is prettier than the Roman liturgy, at least since Vatican II. I always have had a soft spot in my heart for Elizabethan English.

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[info]dustthouart
2005-10-29 09:43 pm UTC (link)
A major key of Catholicism, however, is the belief that she IS protected by the Holy Spirit... in matters relating to the teaching of faith and morals. That does NOT include the horrific acts of church members or even the entire church at one point in history. The Inquisition was not a matter of teaching.
If you don't believe the Holy Spirit protects the magisterium of the Church, then you simply aren't Catholic. It's a matter of definition.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]soliano, 2005-10-29 09:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-29 09:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soliano, 2005-10-29 09:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-29 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soliano, 2005-10-29 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-29 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soliano, 2005-10-29 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-29 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-29 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]archbishop10k, 2005-10-30 05:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napoleonofnerds, 2005-10-30 02:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-30 02:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soliano, 2005-10-29 10:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soliano, 2005-10-29 09:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]archbishop10k, 2005-10-30 06:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-30 09:23 pm UTC

[info]darthbeckman
2005-10-29 09:43 pm UTC (link)
I'm still in my neophyte year and I always say I didn't convert just to be lukewarm about the faith right after Easter Vigil.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dustthouart
2005-10-29 09:43 pm UTC (link)
ICON LOVE. ^_^

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 09:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gordoom, 2005-10-29 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-29 10:15 pm UTC

[info]elena23
2005-10-29 09:53 pm UTC (link)

Should I 'go be a Protestant'? My husband is not Catholic and was married before me. The first Priest we visited to discuss the possibility of an annulment was not kind, and I am only just now being able to persuade my husband. I don't necessarily agree with the Catholic Church in their stance on this, though I do abstain from communion as directed.

Your post is so very angry. Much like the Priest who spoke to my husband, your very tone might serve to sour people on the church. There is a big difference in saying, "I think the Church is wrong on (insert issue here)" and "I don't believe anything the Church says, but I'm still going to call myself Catholic" (per your example about becoming Muslim). Disagreeing with a single issue doesn't mean that you've gone renegade -- people sin every day. It took Augustine many years before he could submit to the will of God...perhaps ordinary people could be persuaded rather than berated.

Further, you go on to insult even the quality of teaching in the entirety of the U.S. which is a pretty big generalization. Some schools do very well; some do not, much like most schools all over the world.

Our church is called 'catholic,' universal, for a reason. Maybe your post here was just a need to vent your frustration, and I understand that. But there are many good people struggling to understand and come closer to the Church. Your recommendations about websites were good, but your method of instruction could be a lot gentler.

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[info]dustthouart
2005-10-29 10:05 pm UTC (link)
Your notes about tone are well taken. I think that sometimes things need to be bluntly, however. In the modern world sometimes it seems like that's the only thing that gets noticed.
And hey, I wasn't just insulting the US teaching, I was insulting Canada too! ;) You can disagree with me, but in my experience, and in talking with others (such as friends and my spiritual director) about their experiences, and after researching the topic, I have concluded that the Catechesis of the North American church is in need of serious CPR. If you want some anecdotal examples, my boyfriend got confirmed without ever being taught what the real presense was, and a girl on my dorm floor who teaches CCD has told me that she thinks of God as a principle. And all the girls in my bible study were venting about their terrible education before college on Thursday. That is anecdotal, however, but I think it's the truth.
Of course my opinions are far from infallible! ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]gordoom, 2005-10-29 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elena23, 2005-10-30 11:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]glossolalia, 2005-10-30 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 01:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-29 10:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_ragu, 2005-10-30 06:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loveneverfails, 2005-10-30 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_ragu, 2005-10-30 09:36 pm UTC

[info]chrissie
2005-10-29 10:02 pm UTC (link)
I can't seem to find grace in this post.

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[info]burningblue
2005-10-29 10:18 pm UTC (link)
When you say "grace" are you really meaning "tolerance and acceptance of sin"?

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(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-29 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-29 10:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-29 10:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-29 10:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 07:53 pm UTC

[info]glossolalia
2005-10-29 10:07 pm UTC (link)
No offense, but I think your title says it all.

Truly, welcome home, and may God's grace illumine your steps.

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[info]rocza
2005-10-29 11:32 pm UTC (link)
*grin* Thank you for being ever so more gracious than me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]burningblue
2005-10-29 10:10 pm UTC (link)
AMEN AND AMEN!!!

PS: I love your icon...and it's TRUE!

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[info]deo__gratias
2005-10-29 10:16 pm UTC (link)
I know you didn't mean offense to anyone--I can see how some could interpret some of the things in your post as harsh.

But you speak the truth. I found myself laughing to myself because I have felt just as frustrated as you do about the way some Catholics so blatantly disregard Catholic teaching if it doesn't "feel right" to them.

I think you're right--one of the main problems when people say they disagree with the church's teaching is that they do not yet understand it. There are some church teachings that I struggle with--but I am still working toward a great understanding of the faith.

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[info]burningblue
2005-10-29 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Jesus was often harsh. This is a bad thing?

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(no subject) - [info]gelasia, 2005-10-29 10:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gelasia, 2005-10-31 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 02:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gelasia, 2005-10-31 02:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 03:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 03:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gelasia, 2005-10-31 04:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 04:27 am UTC

[info]burningblue
2005-10-29 10:48 pm UTC (link)
"You're so NARROW-MINDED!"

"NARROW is the path to LIFE and few there be that find it."

- Jesus Christ

The Master has spoken. Stay on the path.

God bless you!

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[info]luinil
2005-10-29 11:25 pm UTC (link)
Your icon is cool.
And I agree with what you're saying, for the record.

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[info]jediem
2005-10-30 12:47 am UTC (link)
I feel sorry for you to have so much anger.

You sound very young, extremely immature and quite callous.

And your gross generalizations of other religions automatically killed your credibility.

I really truly feel sorry for you.

None of us are perfect. We're all learning. That's why we're here on earth and not sitting at the right hand of the father.

I may have missed this, but exactly who ARE you to judge the rest of us Catholics? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

May God be with you.

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[info]dustthouart
2005-10-30 01:25 am UTC (link)
Just a note... it's interesting how you insult me, but excuse it by saying that you feel sorry for me. And the God bless you is always a good one to use on people you can't stand.
I could be snarky and say that I wasn't judging other Catholics, since in order to be a Catholic you have to be in communion with the Church; but I know what you meant.
I'm certainly not without sin, but I know, thanks to the Church, what sin is. My sadness, my shock and even my anger are because 1) so many people do not know what the Church actually teaches; 2) many people think they know but haven't had things explained fully to them; 3) many people think that what the Church teaches is not relevant or necessary; 4) many people don't know that the Church requires full and total adherence to EVERY doctrine by all the faithful; 5) many people who SHOULD know better (clergy, members of religious orders, teachers in Catholic schools, teachers of CCD etc) teach otherwise.
It's actually only toward number 5 that I really feel anger, since they are leading others astray.
I admit that my tone was a little caustic. But I thought it would get people's attention and it has, and has provided some venting relief to me. Also I was trying to be funny; I understand that many people can't stand humor and religion together, so I suppose I should have expected that.
As to who I am, it's pretty clear via my userinfo that I'm a college student who's converting to Catholicism. I checked out your userinfo and noticed in your journal that you wrote about me. When you write about indulgences I'm afraid you're misinformed; indulgences are a matter of discipline, which is NOT infallible. Priestly celibacy is also a matter of discipline, incidentally. It could change. However there will never be women preists because that is a matter of doctrine, which is infallible.
This is exactly what I mean by people not knowing that they don't know what the Church actually teaches.
Thank you for your prayers, and I'll pray for you too. If you'd like to talk further, I'd be happy to. :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]beatchik, 2005-10-30 02:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-30 02:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napoleonofnerds, 2005-10-30 02:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-30 02:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bork, 2005-10-30 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jediem, 2005-10-30 05:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beatchik, 2005-10-30 06:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beatchik, 2005-10-31 12:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 08:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beatchik, 2005-10-31 12:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-31 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beatchik, 2005-10-31 06:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cereta, 2005-10-30 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jediem, 2005-10-30 04:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-31 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 01:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-31 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_faerie, 2005-10-31 01:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]burningblue, 2005-10-30 07:55 pm UTC

[info]silvercreedence
2005-10-30 01:44 am UTC (link)
Amen! And may God bless you for your courage.

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[info]gordoom
2005-10-30 01:46 am UTC (link)
Icon love! Icon love! I WANT!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]silvercreedence, 2005-10-30 03:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-30 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]silvercreedence, 2005-10-30 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]countrysoaper, 2005-10-30 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]silvercreedence, 2005-10-30 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]countrysoaper, 2005-10-31 01:57 am UTC

[info]napoleonofnerds
2005-10-30 02:31 am UTC (link)
Yet, I would never say to a Muslim "You aren't really Muslim. Don't lie."

If you believe that humans are imperfect and that God is willing to forgive us those faults and imperfections, as the Church does, then you somply can't say "Only those perfect in faith and behavior all the time are Catholic." People fail and have doubt and stuggle because that's what being human is. Jesus did it, and he knows what it's like to doubt.

Take Jesus' prayer in the garden, when he asked for the passion to pass from him by the Father's will. He knew why it had to happen, and he didn't want to do it, but he did it anyway. The difference is between doing it anyway or not.

As for Pierre Trudeau, did the appropriate beings (including the supreme one) die, and make you judge of the world? Like you and I and every one else he was a sinner, and to say that his sin disconnected him from the Church more than anybody else's is a pronouncement reserved for God alone. On November 2 we will commemorate and pray for all the dead, not just the doctrinally pure dead.

I guess it boils down to this: I just took a zero on a paper about the Inferno in an English class because I was unwilling to condemn any group of people because that is God's job. My teacher wanted me to write about what sinners were missing from Hell, and I wrote about why Dante's whole approach is immature and theologically unsound, which stems in large part from it being a poem and not a work on afterlife theology. You seem willing to take God's place and say who is right and who is wrong, which takes a level of hubris which would make Phaeton and Creon cringe, yet you do not provide us with the kind of poetry that makes us willing to forgive Dante. You need to realize that you aren't God and that it isn't your place to condemn. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and all.

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[info]kisekileia
2005-10-30 02:50 am UTC (link)
I think you're missing her point a little, though you're also raising an issue that she didn't fully address. She's not saying that you have to be perfect in faith and behaviour all the time to be Catholic. She's saying that you have to be sincerely seeking to follow the Church's teachings as they are, not as you'd like them to be, and that it really doesn't seem as if Trudeau was doing that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]kisekileia, 2005-10-30 02:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napoleonofnerds, 2005-10-30 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-30 03:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napoleonofnerds, 2005-10-30 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jediem, 2005-10-30 04:45 am UTC

[info]ifnotnownever
2005-10-30 03:55 am UTC (link)
Wow. I'm in RCIA too, but I must have missed the class where they talked about pelting others with stones from some "now-I've-found-God-and-all-you-losers-can-go-to-hell" pedestal.

Ahem.

"If you disagree with something in the Catechism, you're not Catholic, any more than I'm a Muslim. " - Actually, that isn't true. Not every Catholic (not even every person who has taken Holy Orders), agrees with everything in the Catechism. Even if you agree with it, no one is going to be perfect.

Your rather pissy treatment of the Protestant faith(s) is actually against the Catechism, by the way. Read 832.

I'd venture to guess your main problem is you're following a church and not God. I have no idea what your life was like before you converted, but it's like someone handed you a rulebook and rather than understanding God's message of love, you decided to beat everyone else senseless with the rulebook. Stop being such a pain and an instigator and go pray on how to be a better child of God rather than sit here and tell everyone else how to act.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jediem
2005-10-30 04:45 am UTC (link)
Amen.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]countrysoaper, 2005-10-30 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hearts_keep, 2005-10-30 06:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-11-01 02:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ifnotnownever, 2005-11-01 04:37 pm UTC

[info]dogs_n_rodents
2005-10-30 04:24 am UTC (link)
While I understand where you're coming from on this post, you make Protestants almost sound like non-Christian heathens who will not be saved on the day of judgment. From my experience, I've seen many more non-Catholics who really followed the teachings of Christ better so than many Catholics (which is why I see where you're coming from). But just implying that Protestantism is dumbed down Catholicism is a bit harsh and uncharitable.

Protestants might not agree with some of the more specifics (like the true presence of Christ in the eucharist) that Catholic doctrine states, however, they are our brothers and sisters in Christ and we should not look down on them as being any less worthy of receiving Christ's love and salvation.

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[info]balatro
2005-10-30 05:07 am UTC (link)
I agree completely. When I started to feel a pull to return to the Church I discussed what I was thinking, feeling, considering with friends. As I have very few Catholic friends the people who I spoke with were by and large Protestant. None of them suggested I join their church instead and there were no judgments on my draw back to Catholicism. They listened to what I had to say, many said it sounded like I was on to something and to keep on reading and praying and see where God takes me in this.

Overall I've met some absolutely incredible Protestant Christians in my life. I just never really gave it any thought as at the time I had fallen away from my faith. Now they're a source of inspiration for me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]archbishop10k, 2005-10-30 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrissie, 2005-10-31 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]archbishop10k, 2005-10-31 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-10-30 03:09 pm UTC

[info]jessicaem
2005-10-30 04:49 am UTC (link)
I think discussion is important.

I think sarcastic comments and rants make people want not to listen to you--or read your posts--and, therefore, not to engage in discussion with you.

I think that's a problem.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dustthouart
2005-10-30 03:07 pm UTC (link)
To be snarky: Considering the number of comments I have received already, it seems like I have already discussed with a lot of people and I look forward to discussing with more.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jessicaem, 2005-10-30 05:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eggtray, 2005-10-30 08:05 pm UTC

[info]bork
2005-10-30 05:22 am UTC (link)
I don't care if I get banned for this, but you really have no right to tell the rest of us how to practice our faith. We're just as Catholic as you, flaws and all.

So, grow up, go through RCIA, and grow some humility and compassion.

(Reply to this)


[info]thedolphingirl
2005-10-30 05:53 am UTC (link)
A sinner has no right to cast stones unto other people.

But that being said, I won't comment to the rest of the entry - as I have no right to judge you, or vice versa. I work really hard at keeping personal opinion and emotional rants to myself unless it is a situation for unsarcastic educational debate or my personal journal. Good luck to you and have a good personal journey through your spirituality.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dustthouart
2005-10-30 03:11 pm UTC (link)
I want to thank you for actually practicing what you preach! I've gotten so many comments telling me I'm prideful, uncharitable, etc--all sins--and then telling me I have no right to point out the sins of others? I don't get it!
Pretty icon, btw.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]thedolphingirl, 2005-10-30 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedolphingirl, 2005-10-30 06:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thisdesertedsea, 2005-10-31 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thedolphingirl, 2005-10-31 08:03 am UTC

[info]sistermeg
2005-10-30 12:02 pm UTC (link)
The Catechism is one of the Spirit's great gifts to our church.

That said, it is NOT enough for an informed faith. By it's nature it is not fully developed theology. We have consciences, and intellects, and we should develop these in ways that aid us in our understanding of doctrine and pursuit of faith.

Enjoy RCIA, it is a great Rite of the church, and a brilliant, grace-filled way of initiating adults. May I suggest you explore all of our great tradition, rather than revering the catechism to the exclusion of other elements.

And don't holler at people like this. It's irritating.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]napoleonofnerds
2005-10-30 11:23 pm UTC (link)
Nottobeapainbut:

Isn't several great rites?

At any rate, thank you for being more kind than was.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]countrysoaper
2005-10-30 04:51 pm UTC (link)
You're so right. People who show compassion and understanding suck.

What's "actively homosexual" supposed to mean? Is that when they work up a sweat? *snort

I'd recommend...
Read a bit from John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI for some deeper enlightenment and understanding. After that, reread the Gospels. The combination of two deeply compassionate and people-prioritized popes plus Jesus should help you to understand why you're out of line. I'll be praying that God can give you the open heart to walk the proper narrow path.

God Bless!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dustthouart
2005-11-01 02:32 pm UTC (link)
There's a difference between showing compassion and understanding, and being complicit in the sin of others. Telling someone who's sinning that their sin is alright in the eyes of God is a sin itself and is no work of charity!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]countrysoaper, 2005-11-01 03:22 pm UTC

[info]midnightranter
2005-10-30 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Before judging others too harshly for disagreeing with doctrinal teachings of Mother Church and the Holy See, consider a couple of points.
In Canon 1404 it does say Prima Sedes a nemine iudicatur [The First See is judged by no one] and in canon 747 ss 2 it says: Ecclesiae competit semper et ubique principia moralia etiam de ordine sociali annuntiare, necnon iudicium ferre de quilbuslibet rebus humanis, quatenus personae humanae iura fundamentalia aut animarum salus id exigant [To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls].
However, in Can. 748 ss 1 states: Omnes homines veritatem in iis, quae Deum eiusque Ecclesiam respiciunt, quaerere tenetur eamque cognitam amplectendi ac servandi obligatione vi legis divinae adstringuntur et iure gaudent. [All persons are bound to seek the truth in matters concerning God and God's Church; by divine law they are also obliged and have the right to embrace and to observe that truth which they have recognized]. 748 ss 2 drives the point home: Homines ad amplectendam fidem catholicam contra ipsorum conscientam per coactionem adducere nemini umquam fas est. [Persons cannot ever be forced by anyone to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience]. QED, if all Catholic teachings are part of the faith, no person can be forced to accept them if it goes against his or her conscience. And if persons must seek the truth, and obey the truth they find, this means they can be Catholics AND disagree with doctrine (although NOT Dogma, which is solely the Divinity of Christ and Virginity of Mary)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ludo214
2005-10-31 01:28 am UTC (link)
That may be good and fine, but if you say disagree with the Church's stance on abortion, and then procure an abortion for yourself or significant other, you have just excommunicated yourself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]midnightranter, 2005-10-31 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gordoom, 2005-10-31 02:42 pm UTC

[info]nerdanel
2005-10-30 07:31 pm UTC (link)
Interesting post.

Perhaps you can help me.

It seems that part of your problem is wanting people who do not share fully in the beliefs of the Catholic Church to identify as Catholic.

You state, "If you disagree with something in the Catechism, you're not Catholic..."

What about someone like me? I was born to two Catholic parents and baptized, like so many are, without my consent and before I was old enough even to have any independent recollection of the event. I grew up Catholic and received First Communion and First Reconciliation.

Like you, I'm now college-age, but I have wholeheartedly and consistently rejected a near-entirety of the teachings of Catholicism since I was 12 years old. I studied Judaism for four years as a teenager, and since then have been agnostic. I refused to be confirmed as a Catholic when I came of age. I do not want to be associated with Catholicism whatsoever. I've decided that I will not submit to the Church's teachings. Truthfully - and I say this after a good deal of that - I would find excommunication to be the preferable outcome, as the church would find my views on God and Catholicism to be nothing short of heretical. To top it off, I'm queer.

Problem is, I can't find a way to divorce myself thoroughly from this Church which I have never wanted any part of, since I was old enough to make such decisions. EVEN IF I could kindly get them to excommunicate me, such a thing could still be forgiven at the request of (my all too Catholic) family when I am at the point of death. I can find no way to ensure that the Catholic Church will not INSIST on regarding me as Catholic at some point in the future, despite my refusal to believe in or practice anything it says.

So, I found your assertion that whether or not you are regarded as Catholic is such a clear cut, "if you don't believe this you're not Catholic" question. I only wish.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]napoleonofnerds
2005-10-31 12:08 am UTC (link)
I believe, although I'm not sure, that if you write a polite letter to the bishop of the place in which you reside telling them that you are officially a heretic and consciously reject the Church, they delete your name from the "good guy" list in the big supercomputer Jack Chick talks about and add you to the "up against the wall" list.

But seriously, if you don't want to be Catholic, just don't show up. Tell them you have committed apostacy so that you won't be counted as a Catholic, and then don't interact with the Church in an official way. They can only forgive you if you ask them to, and if you don't, you will get your wish.

That being said, you can always come back if you ever wanted to.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ludo214, 2005-10-31 01:25 am UTC

[info]garpu
2005-10-30 07:55 pm UTC (link)
You are Catholic if you have received the sacraments of initiation. If you're going through RICA, you haven't yet.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ludo214
2005-10-31 01:21 am UTC (link)
You are Catholic once you are baptised. Many people who go through RCIA have been baptised Catholic and nothing else.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]garpu, 2005-10-31 03:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dustthouart, 2005-11-01 02:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]garpu, 2005-11-01 03:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adeodatus, 2005-11-01 06:23 pm UTC
Agree
[info]ludo214
2005-10-31 01:19 am UTC (link)
It is very difficult for people in today's society to accept truth. Truth should always be preached. Is it love to let your neighbor risk condemnation? Should we avert our eyes from the sins of the world?

All fall short before God. Does this mean that we should not try to better ourselves and our world? Should we try not to offend God?

When we reject the teachings of the Church we turn away from ideas and practices that are pleasing to God. When we sin we offend God.

We should all pray everyday for true conversion, not only for ourselves but for all souls.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Agree
[info]quiet_faerie
2005-10-31 01:49 am UTC (link)
Amen!!! Wonderfully said.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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