Aaron Chapman ([info]arono) wrote in [info]canadakicksass,
@ 2007-03-18 12:24:00
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Six million wasted votes - That's not democracy
Representative democracy is a simple concept. Citizens elect their representatives. The majority win the right to make decisions.

But do Canadians actually have representative democracy?

In the 2006 federal election, more than 650,000 Green Party voters across the country elected no one. Meanwhile, fewer than a half-million Liberal voters in Atlantic Canada alone elected 20 MPs. In the prairie provinces, Conservatives won three times as many votes as the Liberals, but were given nearly ten times as many seats. But more than 400,000 Conservative voters in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver couldn't elect a single MP. The NDP attracted a million more votes than the Bloc, but the voting system gave the Bloc 51 seats and the NDP 29.

What about majority rule? Canadians are usually ruled by majority governments that the majority voted against. In some provincial elections, parties coming in second in the popular vote have won majority control of the legislature. In other cases, the opposition is sometimes reduced to a seat or two (and in one case, none at all) despite representing forty percent of the electorate.

Check out Fair Vote Canada and please sign the petition si vous êtes canadien(ne).




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[info]uncut_diamond
2007-03-18 07:53 pm UTC (link)
Oh goodie, another way to render rural regions impotent.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]arono
2007-03-18 08:06 pm UTC (link)
Read the site. There are lots of fair alternatives and hybrid systems that keep a regional balance. Germany and New Zealand, for example, have fair representative systems without centralizing power.

Arguments against proportional representation are arguments against a fair democracy, pure and simple. Unless you believe that votes should not be counted as equal, a fair vote is the only way to go.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]uncut_diamond
2007-03-18 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Arguments for proportional representation usually amount to sour grapes. The basic freaking principle underlying democracy is accepting you might lose but you accept it because you have a chance the next time round.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tridus, 2007-03-18 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-18 09:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lemur68, 2007-03-19 12:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-19 12:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-19 01:11 am UTC

[info]mindme
2007-03-18 11:43 pm UTC (link)
You keep saying "read the site" (which involved downloading a PDF). Why don't you give us a brief over view of how a system might work? People have questions. You should have answers instead of simply saying "well, read this web site". You don't have to lay out the whole case but just don't wave your hands about. Give us the executive summary of a system you think will work in Canada and why.

I can't imagine a politician saying "a chicken in every pot" and when someone asks "how"? He just keeps saying "well, I have a fair way of doing it! Just go read my site."

That's the tactic employed by phone soliciting to get employees. "Oh it's a job in promotions? What the nature of the work?" "Well, just come to the seminar and we'll tell you." "Why can't you tell me now?" "It's better explained in the seminar. Just come." "Can you give me a hint?" "Come to the seminar."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 12:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 12:17 am UTC
Well
[info]gsyh
2007-03-18 08:15 pm UTC (link)
The current system, which is suppose to be good for the rural regions, haven't been so far eh? All the PMs that caters almost only to Ontario or Quebec. Harper is nicer to Alberta, but the rural regions on the edges? Still impotent. Maybe greater autonomy for the rural regions which they can use as bargaining chips?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well
[info]uncut_diamond
2007-03-18 08:28 pm UTC (link)
still won't matter

Gotta go for the vote rich areas because you have finite resources. Increased autonomy means you have more say in some areas, but are still frozen out in others.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Frozen out in what? - [info]gsyh, 2007-03-18 08:54 pm UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-18 09:06 pm UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]arono, 2007-03-18 09:12 pm UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-18 09:14 pm UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 12:01 am UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-19 12:04 am UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 12:24 am UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-19 12:25 am UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 01:04 am UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-19 01:12 am UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]siobhan63, 2007-03-19 01:29 pm UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]gsyh, 2007-03-18 09:13 pm UTC
Re: Frozen out in what? - [info]uncut_diamond, 2007-03-18 09:14 pm UTC

[info]northstar83
2007-03-18 07:59 pm UTC (link)
No system is perfect, so lets waste time and resources implenting another one that will work just as poorly.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Homer Simpson says
[info]gsyh
2007-03-18 08:07 pm UTC (link)
"Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]northstar83
2007-03-18 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Uhh... right, because that's what I said.

It doesn't take someone in Poli Sci to know that this system will fail people just as bad if not worse then the system currently in place.

Am I not allowed to voice my dissent? Or am I being oppressive in doing so because I'm saying it work?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-18 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]danthered, 2007-03-18 08:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 08:41 pm UTC

[info]arono
2007-03-18 08:09 pm UTC (link)
So just because a system is imperfect, it can't be better than the status quo? Why would counting all votes work just as poorly? At least Parliament would better reflect the will of all Canadians. I just don't understand your argument. The time and resources to implement a fair democracy is nothing compared to the payoff.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well
[info]northstar83
2007-03-18 08:21 pm UTC (link)
"Oh goodie, another way to render rural regions impotent." As was said above, and don't go all on my to read the site, because quite frankly that's a waste of time.

This works in Germany and New Zealand? So what? Because their countries are MUCH much smaller then our, with a higher population density, so regional balance is not as difficult. If we go with your system it's pretty much going to mean what ever the most densely populated areas of the country decide, so the maritimes will have even LESS of a say on what goes on.

I can see maybe this working if it was done provincially, but if it was done nationwide more voices would just be lost.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well - [info]arono, 2007-03-18 08:28 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 08:40 pm UTC
This couldn't a partisan thing - [info]gsyh, 2007-03-18 08:50 pm UTC
Re: This couldn't a partisan thing - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 08:52 pm UTC
Re: This couldn't a partisan thing - [info]arono, 2007-03-18 08:55 pm UTC
Re: This couldn't a partisan thing - [info]danthered, 2007-03-18 09:11 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]arono, 2007-03-18 08:53 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 08:56 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]arono, 2007-03-18 09:04 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 09:25 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 12:44 am UTC
Re: Well - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-19 01:51 am UTC
Re: Well - [info]danthered, 2007-03-18 09:08 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 09:16 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]danthered, 2007-03-18 09:22 pm UTC
Re: Well - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-18 09:33 pm UTC

[info]bfm
2007-03-18 09:09 pm UTC (link)
The Green Party didn't elect any MPs, plain and simple.
Looking at regionally-conducted votes using a national tally is misleading at best, since not all parties even run in all ridings.
The current government represents how people voted on a regional basis, by riding, giving each riding an MP to represent it.
I don't really see a clear explanation of what the proposed change actually is.

No voting for MPs?
No ridings?
Who would represent regional interests?


(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]therealjae
2007-03-18 10:38 pm UTC (link)
Psst. See the comment right below yours.

-J

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]siobhan63
2007-03-18 10:06 pm UTC (link)
People should read Idealistic Pragmatist's blog posts on the subject. Here's a few links:

http://idealisticpragmatist.blogspot.com/2007/02/six-reasons-to-support-proportional.html
http://idealisticpragmatist.blogspot.com/2006/11/myth-1-proportional-representation.html
http://idealisticpragmatist.blogspot.com/2005/11/proportional-representation-faq.html

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]northstar83
2007-03-19 01:55 am UTC (link)
And wehat makes him an authority?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]siobhan63, 2007-03-19 12:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-19 12:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]embryomystic, 2007-03-19 01:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-19 01:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]embryomystic, 2007-03-19 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-19 02:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]therealjae, 2007-03-19 12:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]northstar83, 2007-03-19 02:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]therealjae, 2007-03-19 02:13 pm UTC

[info]bfm
2007-03-19 01:12 pm UTC (link)
There's still a lot of "we could do this or that" and no clear proposal, which is where the Fair Vote site mentioned in the OP fails really.

Pointing out problems is useful to an extent, proposing solutions in a clear, concise way is much more effective.

btw, There's much better general information at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_Member_Proportional_Representation

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Frozen out in what?
[info]zibblsnrt
2007-03-18 11:19 pm UTC (link)
In the 2006 federal election, more than 650,000 Green Party voters across the country elected no one. Meanwhile, fewer than a half-million Liberal voters in Atlantic Canada alone elected 20 MPs.

So what?

You're equating 650,000 voters nationwide with a half-million voters in a single, tiny region of the country? The vote of someone in BC is - and should be - entirely irrelevant to who my MP is in Nova Scotia.

Love them straw man arguments.

Nevermind that the Green Party might have some better turnout if they didn't (A) nail themselves up on a cross every election claiming to be oppressed and (B) field candidates in Atlantic Canada who were so wet behind the ears that their high school diploma was their last major achievement. Then they might get enough votes in any given district to put someone in Parliament, at which point we might start to see if there's any point to having more of them.

(Reply to this)


[info]mindme
2007-03-18 11:28 pm UTC (link)
So if 90% of the people in a riding or a given geographic region want Liberal representation in government (ie their MP) but only 40% of the country as a whole votes liberal, then only 40% of the MPs for their region are Liberals? The MP they go to explain their needs and desires ends up being a politician from a party they do not want representing their area in government?

And 600,000 green party voters, even though they only represent a very, very tiny % of voters, would get a Green Party MP? What riding then is lucky enough to get this Green Party MP as their representative, given it's likely only 3% of the people in the riding actually want him as their MP?

Is that how it will work?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]therealjae
2007-03-19 12:12 am UTC (link)
Third link, two comments up.

-J

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mindme, 2007-03-19 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]therealjae, 2007-03-19 12:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]therealjae, 2007-03-19 12:13 pm UTC

[info]mindme
2007-03-18 11:34 pm UTC (link)
Now lets look at how the system is currently structured: We vote for the man/woman in our areas we want to represent our interests in government. What's wrong with that? The majority in each riding gets EXACTLY the representative in government it desires. What's wrong with that?

Granted if MPs were able to have free votes instead of having to vote the party line, the theoretical would have much more real world meaning. American senators and representatives are not tied to voting party lines. Instead of changing the whole voting system, it would seem to me that it's far easier simply to convince the parties we support to implement far more free votes as a first step.

No?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]arono
2007-03-19 12:54 am UTC (link)
What's wrong with that is simply that I want representation in government, not just an equal chance at getting represented. I also want my Parliament to reflect the interests of the citizens of the country, not just those who agreed with the local contest winner. Why should I be represented by someone from a different party than mine? Oh, right, because I lost the contest? So I lose my say? That's just not democracy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zibblsnrt, 2007-03-19 01:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 01:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zibblsnrt, 2007-03-19 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindme, 2007-03-19 07:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindme, 2007-03-19 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arono, 2007-03-19 01:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindme, 2007-03-19 01:58 am UTC

[info]therealjae
2007-03-19 12:33 pm UTC (link)
The majority in each riding gets EXACTLY the representative in government it desires.

Actually, that's simply not true. The PLURALITY in each riding gets that, but in most ridings, that's not a majority. What this means is that in the end, only a minority of Canadians across the country have a representative whom they actually voted for.

-J

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mindme, 2007-03-19 01:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]therealjae, 2007-03-19 01:58 pm UTC

[info]mindme
2007-03-19 02:01 am UTC (link)
Errr in sum you're asking the vast majority of us to make a massive change to a system that will only benefit an incredibly small minority. Good luck with that :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]arono
2007-03-19 02:16 am UTC (link)
Such a change would benefit the huge minority (sometimes a majority) of people who have no voice in government. In fact, I would content that it would benefit all Canadians to have a more democratically sound process, at least in principle. The actual policy results are less relevant.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mindme, 2007-03-19 04:53 am UTC

[info]therealjae
2007-03-19 12:21 pm UTC (link)
Actually it would benefit ALL Canadians. It would specifically benefit people who don't tend to vote the way the plurality of the people in their riding vote (like Liberals in Alberta or Tories in urban Toronto or New Democrats in Quebec), who already make up a majority of Canadians. But far more importantly, it would also make a change in the political culture that would be of benefit to everyone. And yes, that means you, too, no matter what party you vote for.

Now, I could cut and paste from the summarized version I wrote up of why that is, but honestly, that seems a little silly. So here's the original. If you come out of there with more questions, the thorough explanations are in the two links at the top.

I'm happy to answer any additional questions here, though, if you feel more comfortable with that than asking me over there.

-J

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]siobhan63, 2007-03-19 01:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]therealjae, 2007-03-19 02:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]siobhan63, 2007-03-19 02:43 pm UTC

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