budgietalk: soooooo..... I've got two budgies, not h

We walk in love but fly in chains (

persifunctant) wrote in

budgietalk,
@ 2007-12-19 21:20:00

soooooo..... I've got two budgies, not hand tamed really, but i do keep their wings and nails clipped, and they do let me hold them on my finger for a bit after i do those things...

Anyways, its a boy girl pairing for SURE, with the boy around 2, and the girl minimum a year and a half. (because thats how long I've had her)

So... two days ago, I come home to find the lady chilling in their little hanging coconut hut thing. Come back a few hours later to feed my reptiles (because they're in my reptile room) and lo and behold, there was an egg in her little coconut thing! after some googling, i found out they can lay up to 8 eggs, and that they usually lay them every other day. Well, today was "every other day" and now there are two little eggs in her coconut. She looks adorable all fluffed up and sitting on them, but since this is her first clutch of eggs, i guess I have a few questions that almighty google can't answer.

Firstly, for anyone who has bred budgies before, how fertile will the first clutch be? I read it takes 18-20 days for the eggs to hatch, but how long can you leave them in there for her to "mother" when they're infertile? and how soon can you know if they're fertile or not?

Secondly, what should I be keeping an eye out for? or what vitamins/suppliments should I be trying to give to the female while shes laying all these eggs? I know with reptiles you want to suppliment them heavily with calcium after they lay eggs, but I saw one place online that you don't want to do that with budgies for risk of prolapse?

I'm kinda a newb at this, and definitely don't want to fail or anything, and wouldn't mind keeping a beeb for myself to tame unlike the parents... so any information would be wonderful!!

thanks!

(Post a new comment)

eterri
2007-12-20 03:50 am UTC (link)

Welcome! I've got tons of thoughts on this so forgive me if it gets long.

Firstly, it is a very good idea to make sure your budgies are on a good diet right now, since egg laying is involved and can be very taxing on the hen's body. She does need some extra calcium which is best gotten from dark leafy greens but in case she won't eat those right now, a supplement or a cuttle bone is ok too.

As far as actually breeding budgies? I don't want to put a damper on things as I know the idea of babies is really exciting. But it is a very bad idea to allow the eggs to hatch. There are a number of things that can go wrong even under the best of circumstances. Without having done a ton of research and getting some hands on experience, these are things that could be incredibly difficult.

I've seen so many breedings go wrong because the owner just didn't know better or had never handled certain situations before. From egg binding to deformed beaks to splayed legs and onto babies actually starving... it's not at all a pretty thing to deal with but very commonly happens to those with the best of intentions.

Another worry is not knowing the lineage of the parents. This is something few breeders (even experienced ones) have access to but it's an extremely serious problem among our birds. Inbreeding and just bad breeding has led to depressingly short lifespans and a plethora of serious health issues including organ failure and tumors (budgies are known to many vets are "tumor factories" because of this).

On top of that, there are so very many budgies out there suffering and in need of new homes because their owners are tired of them and shove them in the back room and pay no attention to them. The luckier ones end up in bird savvy rescues but those still need homes at such a staggering rate that many rescues are forced to actually refuse to take them in. There are just too many and too few people interested in adoption a budgie rather than paying the small price it takes to buy one from a pet store. This may sound irrelevant but it is completely applicable to this situation, even though the breeding is "accidental." For every home one of the babies takes (even if it is yours) a budgie in a shelter or rescue or in someone's utility room wastes away on an all seed diet, too small cage, with improper care.

Maybe you still have no desire whatsoever to adopt and that is certainly your personal choice. But keep in mind that if you really do plan to keep every baby you could easily end up with dozens and dozens of budgies.

It is very hard to get a hen to stop laying after the first clutch. Most of them actually go through two clutches before you can get them to stop. This means you could have several budgies that need vet care, cages, good food, and good homes in a very short amount of time.

So, how to get them to stop? You don't want to remove the eggs before she's finished the clutch as she'll keep laying to replace them. Other options include shaking, boiling, or freezing each egg, marking it (so you know which is which) and replacing it until the laying cycle is finished. You could also buy fake eggs, throw away each real one and replace it with the fake as needed.

I know that sounds a bit harsh and some people compare it to abortion. In the grand scheme of things, it is by far the kindest thing that can be done for budgies, especially those that aren't being bred for health and longevity.

I hope that didn't sound rude or cruel, it's just something I feel strongly about. I've lost budgies due to genetic reasons (most people who have had budgies have even if they don't realize it) and it is absolutely heartbreaking. One of mine was only about four months old when he died from a malignant tumor.

Hope this helps. I know it's a lot to think about but it's something everyone should know before making the big leap into budgie breeding.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

persifunctant
2007-12-20 12:04 pm UTC (link)

thank you so much for that information. Initially i was considering letting this clutch go and see what happens, but I think now after reading the information you provided and some of the other people provided, i will probably go buy some replacement fake eggs this weekend and start to change them out.

They are both on two types of pelleted diet right now. Roudybush and some fruit zupreem pebbles. they also have a cuttlebone, iodine block, two mineral stones, and I try to give them salads when i can made with dark veggies and such, but they dont' seem to care for it much.

I'm not too too concerned about the lineage. I know they are not from the same clutch or even the same parents, and come from two different breeders entirely. So that for me wasn't quite an issue. We got our male first, when he was already close to six months old, and then 3 or 4 months later we got our female, and she was probably close to three months old. They're both also from two completely different places.

Mine are in my reptile room in my basement, but they're not neglected, as they have a big cage, lots of toys, lots of good food and water, daily visits. I want to put them in my living room, but i have a spouse who doesn't really care for them or understand my love of anmials. (except our dogs... he could care less about everythign else)

Thank you so much for your help with this... obstacle... haha. I've never had anything lay eggs before... Although I am waiting on some geckos to lay me some eggs. THOSE i know how to hatch out and care for... and its a lot different then a baby bird... heh.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

eterri
2007-12-20 02:48 pm UTC (link)

No problem, I'm happy to help. :)

Quick note on the lineage thing though: Even with unrelated pairs you can run into nasty things like tumors and other defects being spread. This is why it's so freakin' hard to breed budgies properly. It would take a huge effort, really.

I'm relieved that you made the decision to stop the whole process. I just think that's better for everyone involved.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

razorbagel
2007-12-20 04:06 am UTC (link)

Just because you have a female/male pair doesn't mean that these will be fertile eggs. I had only a hen who would lay 4 or 5 eggs each month, even though there was no male around.

As you've now discovered, the coconut functions as a nest box for your budgies, and as long as it's there your hen will be hormonal and wanting to lay. Laying is very, very stressful for hens, and should be discouraged. It depletes her calcium and also makes her vulnerable to the exceptionally serious condition called eggbinding. Eggbinding occurs when the hen cannot pass the egg, and is fatal in most cases unless you catch it early enough.

If you've never raised a clutch of eggs before, I'd be loath to recommend allowing this one to hatch. Even assuming that all goes well with the nesting phase, once they hatch what will you do?

Not every parent pair feeds the chicks - will you be able to remove and care for (and feed, as many as eight times a day) the babies if the parents reject it/them? If the babies have health problems (anything from being splaylegged to not eating correctly or developing the way they should), what will you do?

In most cases, the best idea is to ensure that the eggs don't hatch. You shouldn't simply remove them once they're laid, though, as this will encourage your hen to continue laying. You can buy dummy eggs at most pet stores, or you can freeze the eggs for a few hours and replace them. They should remain in the nest for about two weeks (17 days is the average time between laying and hatching), at which point you can remove them one by one starting with the earliest.

After this clutch, you might want to discourage their breeding tendencies. This can be achieved through a combination of several very simple changes - remove any enclosed spaces in the cage (coconut huts, tents, burrows - budgies nest in hollows in trees in the wild), give your beebs a strict 12 hours of light/12 hours of darkness schedule, and rotate the cage's furniture (toys and perches, etc) every other week or so.

I'm sorry if I sound like a downer, but a lot of people get excited about "ooh, an egg!" and don't really think about everything that could happen. In the meantime, and regardless of what you decide, make sure that your hen has plenty of calcium available to her, either in the form of a cuttlebone or calcium block. Also, consult with your avian vet to see what he or she recommends.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

persifunctant
2007-12-20 12:08 pm UTC (link)

I will from now on not be putting the coconut hut back into the cage. They do have a 12 light/12 dark schedual because theyre in my reptile room and all of my tanks are on a 12 hour schedual, and they get new furniture about twice a month. I don't like them to get bored, and whatnot.

I do know about egg binding, and the calcium depletion, but thanks again for mentioning it.

You definitely don't sound like a downer. I had every intention of removing the eggs at some point, but a part of me did want to wait it out and see what happened. I'm glad that I sought some advice before commiting that decicion to stone... This would have been the ONLY time this happened, as I do not have any desire or motivation to be a bird breeder. Geckos, perhaps, birds, no thanks.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	razorbagel 2007-12-20 07:04 pm UTC (link)
	i figured you might know about the 12/12, since you mentioned your reptiles. :) i hope things work out for you! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	persifunctant 2007-12-20 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	thanks so much! I really appreciate all of the helpful information from everyone. these are the first birds I've ever owned, (and even then, they're technically only rooming with me because my sister can't have them, though theyve been with me for a year and a half, so I"m considering them mine) (Reply to this)(Parent)

electra310
2007-12-20 04:43 am UTC (link)

As someone who was in your position not too long ago, I'm going to second the things that eterri and razorbagel have said, even though I know they are not the most encouraging or happy things to hear. There is just so much work, worry and care involved in breeding budgies, it's really not something anyone should get into by accident. For one thing, once they get started raising chicks, it's really hard to stop a pair of budgies from breeding and laying more eggs, which is terribly dangerous behavior for your hen. I lost a budgie hen this month to eggbinding, which is a condition that can occur even in budgies with good diet and lots of calcium. A hen can die before you know anything is wrong, because they are so good at hiding sickness. And then if the eggs are fertile and hatch, the parents may not be able to care for them, leaving you to try and learn handfeeding (which is tricky and can result in drowning the chick rather than feeding it), or watching the babies slowly starve.

If you decide that you really want to become a responsible breeder of budgies, it's something that you'll have to put a considerable amount of time and money into. The first thing you should do is talk to your avian vet about responsible breeders with good reputations in your area. See if they will let you help out with their budgies, and teach you the ropes. The best way to learn is from someone who knows how and does it well. Once you are thoroughly educated, then you can invest in the rather large set of necessities for safely breeding budgies, including a sick cage with a warmer and thermometer, syringes and handfeeding formula, a thermometer for formula, extra supplements for the parents, a proper nestbox and nesting materials, and a number of other things.

Most people, like myself, find that they really aren't ready to put that kind of investment in time and money towards breeding. There's no shame in it, you got budgies because you wanted pets, not a part-time to full-time job husbandry job. Freeze the eggs, do what eterri and razorbagel suggested to remove the hormone triggers, and let your budgies just be pets instead of parents. You'll all likely be happier in the long run.

(Reply to this)

	captain_risu 2007-12-20 04:52 am UTC (link)
	i'm going to ~~third~~fourth everything that has been said here. it's unfortunate that the genetics in our sweet birds have been crapped up by so much inbreeding that it should really only be left to the breeders who are carefully breeding for health and longevity. history has simply let things go to far for these little guys, it's unfair. Edited at 2007-12-20 05:25 am UTC (Reply to this)

eleri
2007-12-20 05:33 am UTC (link)

I'll be the voice of Not Gloom And Doom, and say that if you educate yourself now, take all the appropriate steps, and follow through on being a superb budgie parent, than it is possible to have perfectly healthy babies, that grow up to be perfectly healthy budgies. I have 4 that I've raised myself, and they did just fine without me being a pro breeder.

It *does* however, take time, effort and money. You have to make a clear commitment to the work it will take. Are you prepared for maybe 8 more budgies, and the space they'll need? Are you ready for the increased noise? ;)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	persifunctant 2007-12-20 12:09 pm UTC (link)
	haha one, maybe. 8, not so much... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	redhotsammy 2007-12-20 01:43 pm UTC (link)
	Do we really need more? http://search.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?breed=budgie&tmpl=&preview=&animal=Bird&preview=&zip=68502 (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	shadowrabbit 2007-12-20 02:50 pm UTC (link)
	Now we certainly don't!!! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	coffeebean 2007-12-20 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	Off-topic but... that got me curious to see what's around my area and I can't understand why the animal shelters put Pigeons up for adoption but there are tons! Do people really tame pigeons and then put them up for adoption? Strange! (Reply to this)(Parent)

eterri
2007-12-20 02:52 pm UTC (link)

Unfortunately, no amount of large cages, fresh foods, vet care, toys, perches, or anything else for that matter can reverse the damage that has already been done to our birds as far as genes go.

I understand wanting to lighten the mood a bit, but this is still a serious issue and I am passionate about making sure others are educated in this way. Ignorance is bliss, but it does little to help the situation as a whole.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	persifunctant 2007-12-20 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	I agree, and I am extremely grateful for all of you in this community who provided me with all the great information that assisted me in making what I think to be the correct choice. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	eterri 2007-12-20 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	I'm so happy to hear that! It's always a worry when things like this come up that someone is going to get offended. I'm really glad you weren't and that you were able to take everything in. It really says a lot about you as most people would have jumped right into being incredibly defensive. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

persifunctant
2007-12-20 11:38 pm UTC (link)

OH yeah... I mean, I'm not a total newb to owning animals, and while I'm all for animal rights and all that jazz, I also believe in doing what is going to be more beneficial for the animals.

I also knew that for my own personal reasons, breeding budgies is definitely not on my to-do list... hahaha

I guess if I REALLY want to have hand-tamed birds, I'll just have to spend more time working with my current budgies... but that sucks, because I don't like getting bitten...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	eterri 2007-12-20 11:41 pm UTC (link)
	I know what you mean, taming adult budgies can be really difficult. It can take a looot of time and patience and getting bitten is never fun lol. What have you tried with them so far? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

persifunctant
2007-12-20 11:44 pm UTC (link)

in all honesty... not a whole heck of a lot. Like i mentioned earlier, I do keep their wings clipped and i trim their nails when they need it done, and usually afterwards, they'll stand on my hand, and occasionally let me stroke their heads and backs, but we just moved in last august to our house, and we've got two pugs who are a handful, plus all the reptiles and whatnot, so I dont really have a TON of time to devote to taming them, which is fine with me really, because they seem perfectly happy and content to be in their cage. I just like to go in there when I'm feeling kinda sad or down and watch them, and they always somehow cheer me up...

(Reply to this)(Parent)

I disagree completely!
(Anonymous)
2007-12-20 09:48 pm UTC (link)

Firstly if you are a responsible person and your budgies have decided to start breeding and you are keen on the idea of maybe becoming a multiple budgie owner I would not feel in the least bit afraid of letting the natural process occur. Firstly budgies bred under strict lineage which can involve incestual breeding does cause really bad genetic problems but if you have two budgies that are non related i don´t see a problem.
All animals get diseases and a budgie typical lifespan is only 7 years so with a highspeed metabolisim it is not suprising to see the short lives and common ailments that occur in these birds. It is true that these birds require special food and vitamins during breeding but what you have sounds perfect. You may just need to include some egg food in the diet also. If you are curious about taking on budgie breeding don´t get put off by all the negative comments, you can learn how to do it, that´s how we become more experienced with out pets. Please join a proper budgie forum at www.budgerigars.co.uk and we will be happy to guide you through the process.
Note for the day..
There are always two ways of looking at things.
Merry Christmas one and all.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: I disagree completely!

eterri
2007-12-20 10:52 pm UTC (link)

You CAN learn how to do it, for sure. It's a matter of how right it is to do it. That is, of course, up to the owner to decide but in this community, I try to keep everyone fully aware of the impact their choices may cause. It's much better to make an informed decision (no matter how ugly the information may be) than to jump into something not knowing full well what you've gotten into. I've seen too many breeding situations go wrong to stay silent on the issue.

Metabolism has nothing to do with the budgie's short lifespan unless it's a case of starvation or malnutrition. I highly recommend that you do a lot more research on this matter. There is always something new to learn, no matter who you are.

This isn't a matter of ways of looking at the issue. This is a matter of looking at the ENTIRE issue. It's easy to justify breeding when you ignore all the negative aspects (because there are many) and focus only on the positives. But how responsible would that be?

I encourage you to actually join here, rather than posting anonymously as there is a lot to be learned. Our members generally believe in a very high standard of care, and that's something that is extremely hard to find in many other budgie/parrot communities these days.

Almost anyone can get birds to make babies. It takes a very special commitment to actually do this for the right reason. Which is, no matter how you look at it, health and longevity. It comes down to a LOT more than finding an unrelated pair.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: I disagree completely!

persifunctant
2007-12-20 11:22 pm UTC (link)

Well, To be quite honest, the only thing I was maybe a little keen on was having a baby budgie that I could hand tame right from birth, and then never ever keep another clutch, and just discard the eggs.

After learning from other members in the community some of the things involved with actually raising a clutch of eggs, I've decided NOT to pursue this, because I don't have the time to hand-feed a bunch of baby birds if the parents decide not to care for them, nor do I have the space for multiple cages having other animals to care for as well in a smaller house.

I haven't found a single comment that anyone left to this post negative in any way. They were all informative and answered the questions I asked fairly well.

I do not think that it is fair to say "come join a proper budgie forum" as this is a very very informative community with lots of wonderful members and no name-calling, hurtful word slinging, or anything else to that extent.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: I disagree completely! (Anonymous) 2007-12-21 05:05 am UTC (link)
	i think you know more about budgerigar breeding than any other mis-informed person on this site and i respect your knowledge. take care.barrie. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I disagree completely! eterri 2007-12-23 04:35 am UTC (link)
	You're very much entitled to your opinion, but if you want it to carry any weight around here, you'd do better to actually join rather than making anonymous posts. Same to your friend, above. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I disagree completely! persifunctant 2007-12-23 02:07 pm UTC (link)
	isn't there some way to disable anonymous posting to a community? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I disagree completely! eterri 2007-12-23 06:26 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, did that last night so we shouldn't have anymore unexpected visitors! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I disagree completely! persifunctant 2007-12-23 06:27 pm UTC (link)
	oh wonderful! I dont mind people with differing opinions, but when they start seeming like they're just trolling, its not a good place to be. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mournfulbliss 2007-12-23 05:50 am UTC (link)
	can't we all just get along? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	persifunctant 2007-12-23 02:09 pm UTC (link)
	realy hey? I came to seek out advice on what to do with my predicament, and respected all of the input and information I was given. However, its people who start trolling or attempting to start stuff that make lj a hopeless waste of time sometimes (Reply to this)(Parent)

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