buddhists: Buddhism and Suicide

Pewter Wings (

pewter_wings) wrote in

buddhists,
@ 2008-05-06 14:47:00

Buddhism and Suicide
I need some clear information on Buddhism and suicide. In small, easy to read passages if possible. I am not looking for scholarly discussions, just how does Buddhism view suicide, especially if someone has been suffering for decades.

EDITED: Suicide as in already committed. Sorry, not thinking clearly.

Please, no debates here. I just need information.

Thanks.

(Post a new comment)

	abrichar 2008-05-06 06:55 pm UTC (link)
	The national suicide hotline is 1-800-784-2433 and local information by state can be found at http://suicidehotlines.com/ There are people who can help. Suicide is harm to a sentient being and thus best to avoid. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pewter_wings 2008-05-06 06:58 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you for your concern. Not mine, already committed. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	abrichar 2008-05-06 08:08 pm UTC (link)
	I'm so sorry for your loss. I don't have much knowledge of this myself, but with your permission I'd be glad to repost your question to my sangha's mailing list and report back with any resources they're able to recommend. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-06 08:12 pm UTC

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abrichar, 2008-05-07 02:14 am UTC

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 02:24 am UTC

	redslime 2008-05-07 01:10 am UTC (link)
	you can remember this number as 1-800-SUICIDE. I used to work a suicide hot line. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	likethecountry 2008-05-06 07:41 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know of the resources, but I wanted to say I'm sorry for your loss. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pewter_wings 2008-05-06 07:45 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks, but if I believe in samsara, I believe he is no longer in pain. :) What his next life will be? Less painful, I hope. And for some reason, I keep seeing your name as Amida. (Reply to this) (Parent)

stefan11
2008-05-06 07:59 pm UTC (link)

I do not know any particular Buddhist scripture that would address the issue.

Jainism allows for a form of non-violent suicide (by starvation). I read about Zen masters who did end up their lives by starving themselves to death.

At one place, the Dalai Lama says that, for as long as we have himan bodies, there may be someone able to help us. Yet we do not know what may happen in Bardo (in between state) and whether there will be someone to help us. He uses it as a reason not to choose a sucide or euthanasia.

On my lj, I posted a series of u-tube videaos related toe The Tibetan Book of the Death. I think they are informative and, to some extent, relevant to your question: http://stefan11.livejournal.com/260264.html

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pewter_wings 2008-05-07 01:50 am UTC (link)
	Thanks for those by the way. I have been watching them. (Reply to this) (Parent)

elaine4queen
2008-05-06 08:07 pm UTC (link)

i am sorry for your loss. i do not know about scripture, but i do know that i am a buddhist and also someone who has attempted suicide and has had a lot of suicidal thoughts. we are taught to step back from our thoughts and see them as being 'just thoughts'. with suicidal thoughts, for me, i have found this helpful but not a panacea. suicidal thoughts are VERY compelling for the person who has them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pewter_wings 2008-05-06 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	I understand suicidal thoughts after several decades of pain. I am sorry you have to deal with this too. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

elaine4queen
2008-05-06 08:33 pm UTC (link)

they have a way of appearing 'real' in a way that few other thoughts get to. a bit like opposite and equal to a crazy crush. they appear to be reasoned, and maybe they are. there is a concept of rational suicide in, i think, china. for which the only qualificaion needed seems to be to be a woman!
when i think about suicide it does seem rational, but it is usually during a flare up of pain, and i do think my brain chemistry goes down the toilet. whether someone is depressed or whether they have a 'reason' outside of that, it is still really usually an inner dialogue and 'about' them and not about other people's 'failure'.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-06 08:38 pm UTC

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elaine4queen, 2008-05-06 08:42 pm UTC

	ocha_no_hanashi 2008-05-06 10:56 pm UTC (link)
	I suppose a lot depends on the intention of the suicide. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	redslime 2008-05-07 01:27 am UTC (link)
	Let me interpret what I think you are saying here: "I have no idea, but I want to say something, so maybe it might depend on intention. Yeah, that sounds good, sounds like I know something!" A lot of what!? depends on the intention? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ocha_no_hanashi 2008-05-07 03:20 am UTC (link)
	Where one is reborn, how one is reborn, the future consequences... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 03:29 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 04:00 am UTC

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redslime, 2008-05-07 03:34 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 04:02 am UTC

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liveonearth, 2008-05-07 04:10 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 04:14 am UTC

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redslime, 2008-05-07 05:09 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 05:15 am UTC

	hand_clapping 2008-05-06 11:42 pm UTC (link)
	Suicide comes from a wrong assumption that death will stop suffering. If this was true Buddha would have advocated it as a way to liberation, the cessation of suffering, which was the main point of his teaching. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pewter_wings 2008-05-06 11:52 pm UTC (link)
	Why is it a wrong assumption? It stops the pain of now. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	hand_clapping 2008-05-07 12:15 am UTC (link)
	Now has an end? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 12:20 am UTC

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hand_clapping, 2008-05-07 12:40 am UTC

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 12:41 am UTC

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hand_clapping, 2008-05-07 12:41 am UTC

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redslime, 2008-05-07 01:17 am UTC

	redslime 2008-05-07 01:14 am UTC (link)
	It surely did stop your friend's pain. From an awake, Buddha, perspective the pain of an individual is not the issue. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 01:16 am UTC

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redslime, 2008-05-07 01:18 am UTC

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 01:54 am UTC

	ocha_no_hanashi 2008-05-07 04:09 am UTC (link)
	Physical pain maybe. But a mind driven to self-destruction? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 04:12 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 04:15 am UTC

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 04:21 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 04:32 am UTC

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redslime, 2008-05-07 05:11 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 05:16 am UTC

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 11:29 am UTC

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ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 02:07 pm UTC

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stefan11, 2008-05-07 06:19 pm UTC

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 09:13 pm UTC

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pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 09:14 pm UTC

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stefan11, 2008-05-08 03:49 pm UTC

suicidal thoughts

seer0000
2008-05-07 03:22 am UTC (link)

the suffering in a human life is incomparable to suffering in the lower realms. this is why intention at the time of death is important, it is much easier to end up in a lower realm when one is in this kind of mental state when one goes, even in ignorance one can be predisposed toward an animal birth - and with the ignorance of animal birth it becomes ever more likely that one will fall into preta and hell realms in later births.

suffering is the condition of samsara.
physical pain is one thing, psychological pain another.
psychological pain can be fixed, 100% guaranteed according to effort & method.
physical pain ... depends again on training, but is not worth dying for.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: suicidal thoughts pewter_wings 2008-05-07 03:25 am UTC (link)
	I am going to have to disagree on the psychological pain always being 100% fixable. If this were so, then serial killers could be fixed and released back into society. Psychological is much more tenuous than physical. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: suicidal thoughts -

ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 03:45 am UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 03:58 am UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 04:06 am UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 04:09 am UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 04:12 am UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

pewter_wings, 2008-05-07 11:37 am UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

seer0000, 2008-05-07 01:10 pm UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

tenwii, 2008-05-08 11:10 pm UTC

also -

seer0000, 2008-05-07 01:13 pm UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

ocha_no_hanashi, 2008-05-07 02:11 pm UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

tenwii, 2008-05-08 11:05 pm UTC

Re: suicidal thoughts -

fivebells, 2008-05-07 04:20 pm UTC

babycakum
2008-05-07 06:20 pm UTC (link)

I tried to come up with some sources or articles for you without any luck. Sorry. The general idea seems to be that if you are enlightened or nearly enlightened then suicide is not deemed bad. You have the mental understanding to know what you are doing and as you are no longer 'suffering' then suicide isn't used to escape suffering. In terms of the rest of us, it is not a good thing. It appears that the fear is that you could be trading the suffering here and now for worse suffering further on. There is a chapter in "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche that discusses how to help a person through the dying process (even after they have passed). He notes that in a particularly violent death (which would include suicide) helping them pass is of particular importance. This may be something you could do to help your friend and yourself. I am sorry for your loss and hope that you are able to find the information that you need.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	pewter_wings 2008-05-07 09:09 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, thank you very much. This does help. It seems that while suicide is not condoned, the person is not necessarily held to blame. I think. So not good, but not something you should tarnish the person's memory of. I think. I know that when in that state, thoughts are not always clear. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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tenwii, 2008-05-08 11:16 pm UTC

Hope

tenwii
2008-05-08 11:02 pm UTC (link)

I'm so so sorry for your loss. I am sending you and your friend my good thoughts. It is my understanding that you can meditate upon your friend, sending them your good thoughts -- and that can help them find their way to a more positive state. I am sure you are doing this.

Anyone who has not experienced suicidal thoughts (and I do not mean this in a finger-waggy way to anyone) really cannot understand what it feels like. I am glad this is so. I can only describe it this way: it feels like a biological urge, as bad as wrenching thirst that cannot be quenched, painful hunger that cannot be fed, a hunger for air that the deepest of breaths cannot quiet. Those, for most of us, are almost impossible urges to transcend. Even holy people struggle with it.

There's nothing wrong with not truly knowing how it feels -- but there is more to a person's mindstream then their last moments. There is an entire life there -- all of it contributes. Your love for your friend is part of that life --- you continue to help your friend even now.

Hope springs eternal. I believe this to be true with my entire heart. I will pray that your love and hopes for your friend will sustain and nurture them on their journey. I send them mine as well.

Much metta,
J

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Hope pewter_wings 2008-05-08 11:32 pm UTC (link)
	I am meditating for him, thank you for mentioning this. I never want anyone to have to feel that loss of hope. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Hope -

tenwii, 2008-05-09 05:49 am UTC

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