buddhists: Drugs and Enlightenment

nearfar (

nearfar) wrote in

buddhists,
@ 2006-07-16 22:09:00

Drugs and Enlightenment
Can drugs contribute to enlightenment?

(Post a new comment)

	virtual_anima 2006-07-16 05:09 pm UTC (link)
	Can sobriety contribute to enlightenment? :P (Reply to this)

	sublimevisions 2006-07-16 05:11 pm UTC (link)
	why use an external modality to help get inside? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	brucenstein 2006-07-16 08:05 pm UTC (link)
	Why practice sitting or light a candle when you meditate? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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sublimevisions, 2006-07-16 09:22 pm UTC

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brucenstein, 2006-07-16 09:25 pm UTC

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sublimevisions, 2006-07-16 09:33 pm UTC

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brucenstein, 2006-07-16 09:42 pm UTC

	dharmadork 2006-07-16 05:31 pm UTC (link)
	I can see the point that meditation and drugs could have the same effect on the mind, so why not use drugs, but I disagree. It's sort of like copying homework from someone else. The end result is the same: the homework gets done. But we didn't learn anything along the way, and that's what's important. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vanishingrad 2006-07-16 05:34 pm UTC (link)
	its more like copying homework from someone who made up the answers in my opinion. I don't think drugs clear your thinking but in fact do the opposite. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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dharmadork, 2006-07-16 05:48 pm UTC

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roboticminotaur, 2006-07-16 08:54 pm UTC

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redslime, 2006-07-17 02:28 am UTC

	monkeyvrobot 2006-07-16 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	Does it still seem like a good idea if you substitute "muscle development" for "enlightenment" and "sports" for "religion"? (Reply to this) (Thread)

roboticminotaur
2006-07-16 08:57 pm UTC (link)

The reason why drugs are a bad idea for muscle development in sports is twofold.

(1) Many of the drugs, like steroids, are physically harmful. This is not the case with drugs like LSD and psilocybin (although the latter must be taken with care).

(2) Allowing any athletes to use drugs forces all athletes to use drugs in order to remain competitive, which is unfair. This reasons does not apply to religion and enlightenment, because spirituality is not a competition.

In short, your analogy does not work at all.

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blogmemnoch, 2006-07-16 09:26 pm UTC

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redslime, 2006-07-16 09:49 pm UTC

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dravogadro, 2006-07-16 11:08 pm UTC

	mai_neh 2006-07-16 06:15 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not sure we have a good working definition of "enlightenment" around here. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	nobody_ 2006-07-16 06:24 pm UTC (link)
	LOL. Agreed. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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virtual_anima, 2006-07-16 07:13 pm UTC

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redslime, 2006-07-16 09:50 pm UTC

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mai_neh, 2006-07-17 01:29 pm UTC

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redslime, 2006-07-17 04:00 pm UTC

nobody_
2006-07-16 06:42 pm UTC (link)

At the end of the day, it seems counterintuitive that selective, disciplined use of psychopharmaceuticals could not play a role in a program of spiritual evolution.

I had a good chuckle at this.

The phrase "program of spiritual evolution" answers the question. If you're pursuing a "program of spiritual evolution," you're not pursuing enlightenment. You're pursuing a self-improvement project based on unfounded idealisms and discomfort with the messy realities of existence. You're not turning and looking Reality in the face to see what is there, which is the pursuit of Enlightenment (seeing into the true nature of things); you're turning toward a beautiful idea that makes you feel good.

And even when it comes to the possibility of a relatively more "enlightened" society, in terms of one that is less violent, compulsive, destructive, and materialistic, I think all one needs to do to answer the question is to look at the evidence of the results of drug use. Some of the most compelling evidence we have that drug use could lead to a more utopian society is in stories of the drug-oriented counterculture of the 1960s America, but look how long that lasted. Many of the same people who lived in communes and tried to find a simpler way to live are now the "Baby Boomers," who arguably are more money-driven and aggressively competitive for resources than generations before them. Even most of the "spiritual teachers" who came from that time period are savvy gurus who have done a great job of figuring out how to turn spirituality into a profitable business.

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brucenstein
2006-07-16 08:09 pm UTC (link)

That's an awful big assumption out of 4 words. The author could have put any four words there "creation of personal spirituality" or whatever and the same arguments could be said. It seems to be you're assuming a lot about the author which has not been revealed.

Drugs are a thing that exist in reality, hence to experience them is to experience the true nature of things, no? How can you argue otherwise? Whether you agree with their use doesn't matter; I don't see how you can say it's any less real than anything else.

Your analogy seems flawed, one could just as easily point to the culture you speak of and say it's an example of "abuse" and not use.

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bhavanibbana, 2006-07-16 08:28 pm UTC

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brucenstein, 2006-07-16 08:45 pm UTC

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brucenstein, 2006-07-16 09:04 pm UTC

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brucenstein, 2006-07-16 10:27 pm UTC

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brucenstein, 2006-07-16 10:31 pm UTC

You are a real piece of work -

bhavanibbana, 2006-07-16 10:32 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

brucenstein, 2006-07-16 10:34 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

bhavanibbana, 2006-07-16 10:35 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

brucenstein, 2006-07-16 10:37 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

bhavanibbana, 2006-07-16 10:40 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

brucenstein, 2006-07-16 10:51 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

jrfrench, 2006-07-17 02:27 am UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

brucenstein, 2006-07-17 03:44 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

bhavanibbana, 2006-07-17 12:18 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

brucenstein, 2006-07-17 03:49 pm UTC

Re: You are a real piece of work -

bhavanibbana, 2006-07-17 07:25 pm UTC

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nobody_, 2006-07-16 10:41 pm UTC

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nobody_, 2006-07-17 02:06 am UTC

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virtual_anima, 2006-07-17 02:58 am UTC

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virtual_anima, 2006-07-17 02:49 am UTC

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didzter, 2006-07-16 08:15 pm UTC

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jrfrench, 2006-07-16 11:50 pm UTC

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	Couldn't resist brucenstein 2006-07-16 08:10 pm UTC (link)
	Aren't we all Buddhas? :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

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bodhiseeds80, 2006-07-16 09:00 pm UTC

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empty_your_mind, 2006-07-16 11:12 pm UTC

	thirdreel 2006-07-16 07:16 pm UTC (link)
	When I first glanced at this post, I thought it said "Can dogs contribute to enlightenment?" (Reply to this) (Thread)

	bhavanibbana 2006-07-16 07:39 pm UTC (link)
	Mu! (Reply to this) (Parent)

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gr8snood, 2006-07-17 02:10 am UTC

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fromthispeak, 2006-07-17 09:17 am UTC

	saltcellar 2006-07-16 07:41 pm UTC (link)
	Someone asked Lama Tashi Namgyal about this, and he said that it might be useful for people to know that there's more than one way of percieving the world, but after that... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	brucenstein 2006-07-16 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	I whole-heartedly agree with that statement. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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virtual_anima, 2006-07-16 10:41 pm UTC

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redslime, 2006-07-17 02:27 am UTC

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virtual_anima, 2006-07-17 02:28 am UTC

	elaborateruse 2006-07-16 07:43 pm UTC (link)
	Very interesting. Thanks for posting! (Reply to this)

brucenstein
2006-07-16 08:13 pm UTC (link)

Disclaimer: I've used drugs and feel they have had an overall positive experience on my life.

That being said: I have also drank water, fractured my heel, wrecked my car, used a telephone, ate cereal without milk, enjoyed a nice glass of wine, called in sick to work, played a musical instrument, fell asleep while reading a book in bed and rubbed a cat's belly and I feel they have all had an overall positive experience on my life.

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	redslime 2006-07-16 09:56 pm UTC (link)
	now your talking (Reply to this) (Parent)

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brucenstein, 2006-07-17 03:41 pm UTC

	notfromvenus 2006-07-16 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	Didn't we have this discussion like, two days ago? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gillan 2006-07-17 05:38 pm UTC (link)
	More like every two days since the community started. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bodhiseeds80 2006-07-16 08:56 pm UTC (link)
	I wouldn't think they would. Given it's you has to do the work. I know that's a shock to a lot of people who wish there was a magic substance that could do it all, but enlightenment can not be put in a pill and swollowed. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	roboticminotaur 2006-07-16 08:59 pm UTC (link)
	How do you know that? I don't think we currently have any drugs that drop enlightenment into your lap. But there seems no reason to me why it should be impossible. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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bodhiseeds80, 2006-07-16 09:01 pm UTC

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roboticminotaur, 2006-07-17 12:39 am UTC

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bhavanibbana, 2006-07-16 09:08 pm UTC

kan_zen
2006-07-16 09:43 pm UTC (link)

My personal experience is that drugs can be useful tools to open "The Doors of Perception" (Huxley). They can open your mind to the point that you can see that there's more to reality than what meets the eye. But once the door is open, the real work begins. At that point, continued drug use is simply for entertainment value or in hopes that drugs can take you further. They can't. This work cannot be accomplished by a mind that does not observe the precept against heedlessness. It's real work. No shortcuts.

(Reply to this)

gr8snood
2006-07-16 10:37 pm UTC (link)

I think a great many people are looking for an excuse to try illegal drugs and like to think of seeking enlightenment as that perfect excuse. However, the Buddha specifically advised us not to partake in anything that would intoxicate us for the very reason that enlightenment is simply seeing reality more clearly and intoxication only blurs our perception of reality. However, since this keeps coming up, it certainly seems that no amount of logic or reasoning will dissuade those who wish to see Buddhism as an excuse to indulge. It makes me rather sad because I fear for them and their health.

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roboticminotaur
2006-07-17 12:52 am UTC (link)

The drugs present in the society in which the Buddha lived are certainly different from the drugs available to us. No one is advocating using alcohol to achieve enlightenment. So, as to the question of whether LSD or psilocybin can help achieve enlightenment, the Buddha is silent.

I would be as spiritually dead now as I was 10 years ago if it were not for LSD. It has helped me as much as any scripture -- and I have gained much from scripture. Far from blurring reality, as drugs like alcohol and marijuana do, I found with its help a clarity of thought beyond what I had ever elsewhere achieved.

You are wrong to portray me and others like me as irrational hedonists.

PS: Not every illegal drug is a significant health risk.

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gr8snood, 2006-07-17 02:08 am UTC

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trasharama
2006-07-17 12:51 am UTC (link)

"I think psychedelics play a major part in what we do, but having said that, I feel that if somebody's going to experiment with those things they really need to educate themselves about them. People just taking these chemicals and diving in without any kind of preparation about what they're about to experience tend to have no frame of reference, so they're missing all these new perspectives. It's a waste. The reach a little bit of spiritual enlightenment and then they end up going 'Well, now I need that drug to get back there again.' The trick is to use the drug once to get there, and then maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug."
-Maynard James Keenan.

This totally somes up my opinion also.

Peace :)

(Reply to this)

friedmetal
2006-07-17 02:37 am UTC (link)

It's relative to the individual. My experiences with LSD and psilocybin have always been extremely profound and have on a number of occassions lead to spiritual growth. The reason I believe they have this effect is because they force you to percieve samsara in a different way. For example, I have found LSD makes me unable to filter out much of the sensory data I ignore on a day-to-day basis. Simple everyday things can quickly become overwhelming and I have to do whatever I can to become comfortable. Simply put, I have total control over whether it's a good or a bad trip. This is a lesson we can apply to samsaric existence as a whole.

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virtual_anima
2006-07-17 03:13 am UTC (link)

I think people are making assumptions about things they don't understand. First of all, people seem to assume that we're in a 'without drug' state normally. They forget that we're always under the influence of drugs. The body is a chemical system. It uses drugs to trigger urges like hunger, horniness, happiness, love, everything. People put the "normal" state on some sort of pedestal, forgetting that this too is an illusion, and a not very happy one at that. "Taking drugs" is adding other chemicals to the system that change how the system work in some way. Either by adding more of a substance, or changing how the body reacts to a substance it already has.

For instance, extacy. The extacy itself doesn't make you feel good. All it does is block your body's uptake(removal from the system) of your own happy chemicals(dopamine). So your body ends up with a lot of this chemical it produces for yourself. Its your own body producing the chemicals that make you all happy and wacky.

Another thing, people seem to assume that everyone's perception of reality is exactly the same in the first place, that we're not all seeing our own version with variations of reality already. Also, people assume that even their own perception of reality is constant. They forget that your own body changes your drug balances in your body. Sometimes you're mad, sometimes you're tired. If anyone has ever experienced extreme sleep deprivation, it'll make you see a wierder interpretation of reality than many drugs!

As for my opinion on drugs contributing to enlightenment, I don't know. I'm figuring out, I don't really know what enlightenment is anymore. I don't know what people are looking for.

Drugs will expand your wisdom though. When you alter certain chemicals in your brain, you realize their effects under normal processing too. You realize that certain things you take for granted as 'reality' are pretty contrived too. You can hear someone say its that way a million times, but a first hand experience of it is really something.

I've done a couple drugs, and I think it really did help me to understand how certain things in my perceptions, thoughts, etc work under normal circumstances. I'm not some 'drug head' I don't do any drugs. I haven't done any drugs for probably 4 years. I've only done a psychadelic drug once (mushrooms) and that was enough. I saw what I needed to see, and now that I have, I don't need to again.

As I said before, who is more knowledgeable about the world: The person who grows up in one town and lives there their entire life, or the person who has traveled a bit and seen that the cultural standards and opinions they assume are objective reality really aren't.

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beginnermind
2006-07-17 04:29 am UTC (link)

Responding to the article, I'd have to say that end justifying means is counter to Buddhist thought as I understand it. The precept against intoxication isn't a moral one, isn't an ethical one.

Get comfortable where you are, because that's all there is; trips are irrelevant. Kensho is just something that happens, not a goal. It seems odd to lean on Dogen and then talk about goal oriented Buddhism.

I think the author's jotting down some thoughts he's sifting through, not writing about what he understands; I hope he's not convincing himself that he does understand.

About drugs, period. Well, not for me.*shrug*

(Reply to this)

	iam 2006-07-17 07:56 am UTC (link)
	no. How can a natural state be drug induced? (Reply to this)

xamienmooncrow
2006-07-17 11:32 am UTC (link)

It makes good points for it but neglects to learn from the fact that with meditation and reflection, we remain "in control" (so to speak) of the changes going on within our brain and more importantly within our perception. It's similar to say, paying someone to build a ship for us to get us across the sea and building it ourselves.
Surely, either one can work, but either can fail at any given time. There's nothing that truly advocates drug usage ahead of or even equal to meditation. When you build the ship yourself and take the time to do all of it, the end result is a ship that you know intimately and can fix/adjust for yourself.

(Reply to this)

vision_serpent
2006-07-18 03:58 pm UTC (link)

The short answer, I think, is no. A lot of the Buddhist arguments against drugs are very valid. They can plunge a person much further into illusion, and they can have a lot of harmful side effects. The experiences that psychedelics bring about have nothing to do with prajna, nonduality, or the insights brought about my meditation. They may be valuable in other ways. Many cultures have thought so for thousands of years. The question should certainly be investigated more thoroughly and honestly both by scientists and by society at large, which has done a great job of demonizing psychedelic drugs while simultaneously glorifying alcohol and tobacco, which kill lots of people all the time. My point, though, is that psychedelics are no excuse for meditation, and to confuse psychedelic epiphanies with Buddhist enlightenment would be foolish.

However, I think a lot of Buddhists have a ridiculously knee-jerk reaction to drugs. One of the saddest examples to me is that of Dr. Rick Strassman, a researcher who did DEA-approved experiments with DMT in the '90's. Although his research was entirely legal and met all of the scientific community's ethical guidelines, his Buddhist sangha expelled him for publicizing his findings and suggesting that psychedelic drugs (a) might produce a genuine spiritual experience, and (b) might have beneficial effects for some people.

Expelled from the Sangha!! Simply for stating his opinion which he drew from his science! How awful, ignorant, and un-Buddhist is that?

(Reply to this)

	feed_the_fire 2006-07-20 11:38 pm UTC (link)
	It depends alot on your idea of 'enlightenment'. Afterall, Enlightenment is just an idea. What you consider to be enlightened is the point you want to reach, so, perhaps drugs can be the path for some and not for others? (Reply to this)

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