perial ([info]perial) wrote in [info]breadmaking,
@ 2008-09-18 14:27:00
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Current location:Winfield
Current mood: tired

Yeast and flour differences, and staleness
I'm in the US for two months right now, and have had a lot of trouble with using dry yeast -- used to yeast cake. Freshly bought yeast doesn't wake up at all, even when left in warm water with sugar. Could storing it next to a microwave be a problem? How about carrying it in a hot car?

Also, it seems there's a difference in the flour between here and Denmark. I have a recipe that's worked very well in Denmark, where I mix 8 dl water with 1 kg flour to get not so much a dough as a batter. When I mix the same ratio here, I get a dough that comes off the sides of the bowl. Is the US flour a finer ground? Drier? Different kind of wheat?

I think I've found an explanation for why I'm not seeing my bread go stale in the fridge: While the process that causes bread to go stale may go faster at fridge temperature, but it's a process that requires water, so if the bread is stored in an airtight container, the process can only go so far, especially if as little air as possible is in there. Thus bread left in a paper bag or plasitc bag with air holes will go stale faster where ever it is kept.


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[info]shirei_shibolim
2008-09-18 08:21 pm UTC (link)
I'm in the US for two months right now, and have had a lot of trouble with using dry yeast -- used to yeast cake. Freshly bought yeast doesn't wake up at all, even when left in warm water with sugar. Could storing it next to a microwave be a problem? How about carrying it in a hot car?

How are you using the dry yeast? Active dry yeast has to be rehydrated in lukewarm water or some other liquid before being incorporated into the bread dough. Many people add a bit of sugar to the yeast-water mixture so that it will bubble and indicate readiness, but this shouldn't be necessary. (Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know.) You might try using what's variously called bread machine yeast or instant yeast, both of which are just a more finely granulated form of dry yeast. It can be mixed directly into the flour and does not require the extra hydrating step.

Also, it seems there's a difference in the flour between here and Denmark. I have a recipe that's worked very well in Denmark, where I mix 8 dl water with 1 kg flour to get not so much a dough as a batter. When I mix the same ratio here, I get a dough that comes off the sides of the bowl. Is the US flour a finer ground? Drier? Different kind of wheat?

The most likely difference is the protein content. Wheat grown in different regions can contain different amounts of gluten, and millers from different regions also tend to select different kinds of wheat to grind into flour. I don't know anything about the flours available in Denmark, but you might want to try replacing some of the all-purpose flour (assuming that that's what you're using) with pastry flour. Pastry flour is a grade with a lower gluten content than all-purpose, which should keep the mixture from forming a true dough quite so easily.

Good luck!

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[info]perial
2008-09-19 02:28 am UTC (link)
Yes, I know how to work dry yeast (as indicated in the text you quote:), as mentioned below the storage is the most likely culprit. Some new yeast brought home in cooler weather turned out to work better.

I believe the Danish flour is usually 10-11 percent protein, so that could be why. I rarely find high-protein flour in Denmark, I will have to keep that in mind for using US recipes in Denmark.

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[info]slackwench
2008-09-18 09:30 pm UTC (link)
You could try brewer's yeast. That usually comes in liquid form. I've never tried using it with bread, but I've read that it works quite well (and adds a pleasant flavor).

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[info]perial
2008-09-19 02:24 am UTC (link)
No idea if it'd work or what kind of taste it would give. Gotta see where I can find that, just for fun.

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[info]slackwench
2008-09-19 05:14 am UTC (link)
I live in a pretty small town, and there's a place here that sells it in vials. Check a hobby store or a big liquor store (with a good beer selection) if you don't have a dedicated brewers supply place nearby.

If you really can't find it locally, you can order it online. It doesn't really matter where you order from, though you should make sure they have a DoA policy. I'd suggest something from either Wyeast or White Labs. They have the best liquid yeast in my experience. Wyeast comes in a package with a nutrient pack in there, while White Labs yeast just comes in a little vial.

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[info]facetiae
2008-09-18 09:55 pm UTC (link)
I don't know about the microwave, but I suspect if yeast gets too hot it won't work as well. I store my dry yeast in the fridge, and it keeps for quite a while.

have you had a chance to look for cake yeast? I know it is possible to get it here, it's just sometimes a challenge.

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[info]kint
2008-09-18 10:30 pm UTC (link)
Flour is definitely different. I think, on average, European flours aren't as in high in protein as flours here in the US (I've heard the land having been farmed for MUCH longer as an explanation). Our 'bread flour' tends to run about 13-15% protein, whereas you're quite possible used to something in the 11-13% range. You may want to try using an 'all purpose' flour or, if you can find it, King Arthur Organic Artisan Bread Flour which is blended to emulate European wheat flour. As a last resort, just use more water until the consistency is where you want it to be.

I find Active Dry yeast generally irritating -- so long as the package is fresh and water not too hot it should bloom ok. Instant (or 'bread machine') yeast is easier because you don't have to do that -- you can mix it straight in with your flour. If there are any bakeries in the area you're staying, I'm sure they'd be happy to sell you some fresh yeast. As to quantities, I believe the ratio is roughly 3:2:1. That is, if you're recipe calls for 10 g fresh yeast, you'd use 5 g active dry, or 3 1/3 instant.

Edited at 2008-09-18 10:37 pm UTC

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[info]perial
2008-09-19 02:23 am UTC (link)
Hadn't thought it woud be the protein, but that could well be it. That can also explain some of the problems I've had with bread after moving from the US to Denmark. On my last attempt, I added extra water, unfortunately I'd let the yeast stand around for too long, so it only rose slightly. Still good for sandwiches, though.

No bakeries here except for in Wally-Mart, and I already asked them with no luck. Will have to try whole foods stores or bakeries in Wichita, the nearest large city.

Interesting about the instant yeast, I guess that's what was in that Bob's Red Mill bread mix I tried with success. Certainly makes it easier, thanks for the hint.

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[info]sinkingstorm
2008-09-18 10:32 pm UTC (link)
When using yeast, its always best to keep it in a cool dry area. Yeast activates at around 80 degrees, so a hot car is definatly going to wake it up. And once its woken up, it there is no food for it to eat, its going to burn off and die rather quickly. Which means its not going to do anything.

The best place to store it is actually in the pantry away from any appliance that will heat the area up. Keep it in the back so any sunlight can't heat it.

To wake it up, you need to put it into water that has been heated up in the microwave for about 15 seconds. It needs to be warm enough to dissolve the casing around the yeast. If you watch, it will sort of 'bloom' in the water once its ready and will look like its moving around. Sugar is definatly a good thing to have in the water with the yeast, cause thats what it eats (and yeast is very hungry when it wakes up, and if there's nothing to eat, it will start eating itself and quickly die off.) It really only takes about 10 minutes to wake the active dry yeast up. I really hope all this is useful!

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[info]perial
2008-09-19 02:19 am UTC (link)
Yes, quite useful really. It was hot enough down here that the trip home in the car may well have woken it up. I've seen how it blooms - I like how it can fall to the bottom of the water and then suddenly "turn over" when it works correctly. Your explanation of the waking up and needing food makes a lot of sense.

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[info]notjeremyjones.blogspot.com
2008-09-22 02:46 am UTC (link)
You've been in the US for about as long as I've been in Korea. Consider yourself lucky to be living in a western society that uses ovens regularly.

I know one of the reasons why we have bread flour that has so much gluten is the fact that we regularly grow winter wheat up in the northern states where it's colder (though Denmark gets pretty cold, doesn't it?). Winter wheat tends to produce a lot more gluten due to the temperature for some reason unbeknown to me.

The yeast needs to bloom in temperatures from about 27 C to 45 C. About the temperature for bath water should be right. I'm assuming that you're living in the midwest, and in that case, there might be some Mennonite or Amish shops somewhere near you (that was the case for me when I was living in Northeast Missouri). Those places I've found has the cake yeast. Being raised in America, all I have ever used was the dry yeast in the packets. Generally, Red Star or Fleischmann's (sp?) has been pretty good to me as long as you don't get any of the rapid rise or the active dry kind.

It might still be warm enough for you to try making a sourdough starter. I was able to make a really active and scrumptious sourdough when I lived in Missouri from a starter that I made at the beginning of summer 2007. The fauna will more than likely be different down where you live, but it's worth a shot.

Hope my ramblings help.

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[info]perial
2008-09-22 03:16 am UTC (link)
You've been in the US for about as long as I've been in Korea. Consider yourself lucky to be living in a western society that uses ovens regularly.


I thought S. Korea was well up on their tech, it certainly seems like that when it comes to cell phones and computers. Kitchen tech not keeping up with gadgets?


I know one of the reasons why we have bread flour that has so much gluten is the fact that we regularly grow winter wheat up in the northern states where it's colder (though Denmark gets pretty cold, doesn't it?). Winter wheat tends to produce a lot more gluten due to the temperature for some reason unbeknown to me.


Yes, a family member mentioned the winter wheat. I frankly don't know what kind of wheat we grow in Denmark. It usually only gets down to around freezing, and some years it'll get to -10 or even -20 C if the wind comes out of Russia. I'll have to check.



The yeast needs to bloom in temperatures from about 27 C to 45 C. About the temperature for bath water should be right. I'm assuming that you're living in the midwest, and in that case, there might be some Mennonite or Amish shops somewhere near you (that was the case for me when I was living in Northeast Missouri). Those places I've found has the cake yeast. Being raised in America, all I have ever used was the dry yeast in the packets. Generally, Red Star or Fleischmann's (sp?) has been pretty good to me as long as you don't get any of the rapid rise or the active dry kind.


I'm using Fleischmann's now, and it seems to work -- keeping it from waking up during transport home or while being stored seems to have helped. It's even the extra active kind, and it seems to work. What has been your problem with the rapid rise? I don't know that there is any easily available that's not at least active.


It might still be warm enough for you to try making a sourdough starter. I was able to make a really active and scrumptious sourdough when I lived in Missouri from a starter that I made at the beginning of summer 2007. The fauna will more than likely be different down where you live, but it's worth a shot.


I made one, actually, for making Danish rye bread, and it worked. According to some website I don't remember the name of now, the yeast actually comes from the rye flour, not the air -- I certainly had mine covered while it started, so it couldn't have been from the air. Thus, the regional difference would be less than the difference based on flour type.

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[info]buttsurfer
2008-09-23 02:58 am UTC (link)

I thought S. Korea was well up on their tech, it certainly seems like that when it comes to cell phones and computers. Kitchen tech not keeping up with gadgets?

It's not that they aren't keeping up, it's that the society over here does not rely to much on ovens for many of the meals (all of the traditional Korean food is usually very quickly cooked). The apartments over here only have a couple of gas burners and that's it. Otherwise, the technology is great.



I made one, actually, for making Danish rye bread, and it worked. According to some website I don't remember the name of now, the yeast actually comes from the rye flour, not the air -- I certainly had mine covered while it started, so it couldn't have been from the air. Thus, the regional difference would be less than the difference based on flour type.

Maybe it's the strain of bacteria that's in the air that I was thinking of. I know that they are the ones that produce the sour taste, and I've been told that it doesn't really matter where you order a starter from, it will eventually become the flavor of your local fauna.

Happy Baking!
-Not Jeremy Jones

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[info]naishinnou
2008-10-04 03:54 am UTC (link)
I'm in the US for two months right now, and have had a lot of trouble with using dry yeast -- used to yeast cake. Freshly bought yeast doesn't wake up at all, even when left in warm water with sugar. Could storing it next to a microwave be a problem? How about carrying it in a hot car?

Dry yeast is a pain but you can still buy yeast cake in specialty grocery stores.

NEVER keep yeast near a microwave, oven or any hot surface. Dry yeast does well in dark, cool places or even the freezer. I put huge bags of yeast at Costco (a wholesaler) or from bulk foods and keep it in dark brown jar in the freezer (the jar is then placed in a ziploc bag). Never had a problem.

Also, if the water is too hot you'll kill the yeast and if it's too cold it won't activate.

Also, it seems there's a difference in the flour between here and Denmark. I have a recipe that's worked very well in Denmark, where I mix 8 dl water with 1 kg flour to get not so much a dough as a batter. When I mix the same ratio here, I get a dough that comes off the sides of the bowl. Is the US flour a finer ground? Drier? Different kind of wheat?

American flour IS different the flour from other countries and even regions. We have several types of flour but your best bet is to use bread flour versus general purpose flour.

I don't know what 8 dl water to 1 kg flour. Ok, looked it up.

1 dl = 10 cl. = 100 ml.
100 milliliter = 0.422 675 283 77 cup [US]

Basically 1 dl = < 1/2 cup.

1 kg = 1,000 g = 2 pounds
I think that translates as 4 cups.

Basically, it sounds like your mixture it too dry but Metric conversions is not my thing.

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[info]perial
2008-10-04 01:51 pm UTC (link)
Seemed way too dry, indeed. .84 quart water to 1.05 quart flour. I'll be trying 1:1 next.

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