velvetpage ([info]velvetpage) wrote in [info]booju_newju,
@ 2009-07-03 15:58:00
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Calculators in the classroom
Scenario: you have a child who struggles in math, enough so that by grade four, they're on an IEP for it. One of the accommodations the spec ed teacher wants to put in place is to make sure your child has full-time access to a calculator during math. However, the classroom teacher isn't convinced; she has been known to take the calculator away and insist that children do some activities with paper and pencil or from memory.

Where do you fall? Are calculators a valuable tool for kids to learn math? Are they a crutch? Is it a little from column A and a little from column B? What is the role of calculators in an elementary classroom? (I'm pretty sure we can all agree that calculators in high school are valuable, but if not, say so!)


This topic is coming up in the course I'm taking this summer, which is about the teaching of math at the elementary level. The consensus in the research is that calculators are a valuable tool in problem-solving situations, but should not be used for single-digit computation. Since math is supposed to focus on problem-solving as a route to understanding, computation is a step in the process rather than the goal. I want my students and my kids to be able to do single-digit and some double-digit addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division without resorting to a calculator; but I'd much rather have them spend class time on advanced problem-solving rather than multiplying two four-digit numbers with paper and pencil.

In the IEP situation, I'd encourage my child to develop their number sense to the point where they're only using calculators for calculations with answers greater than 100 (before grade four, I'd say 50.) I'd expect them to practise estimation and mental computation and continue to develop their understanding with their peers. It is not good enough to use the IEP as a way to keep them permanently behind; the IEP is there so that they can catch up or find ways to learn the same things as their peers, while circumventing their learning differences.



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[info]spamwarrior
2009-07-03 08:15 pm UTC (link)
I see your point, but if it's routinely done then it isn't long before multiplying or dividing multi-digit numbers by hand takes no time at all.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-03 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Um. . . isn't that a good thing? If you're sure they understand the concept well enough to know when the calculator is giving them the right answer, why on earth should they be spending a ton of time on something the machine can do faster? Wouldn't they be better off spending their effort on figuring out which computations need doing - the part the calculator can't do for them?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]spamwarrior, 2009-07-03 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]spamwarrior, 2009-07-03 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]spamwarrior, 2009-07-03 08:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]spamwarrior, 2009-07-03 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]katiedarling, 2009-07-04 01:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 02:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pester, 2009-07-03 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 10:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-03 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]katiedarling, 2009-07-04 01:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-04 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pester, 2009-07-03 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theretohere, 2009-07-04 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-04 07:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]katiedarling, 2009-07-04 01:40 pm UTC

[info]couchtiger
2009-07-03 08:16 pm UTC (link)
At grade 4, I would definitely prefer they kept the calculator away, particularly if my child is weak with math. I am of the opinion that save for the advanced and abstract maths, they are a crutch.

I think it would be a great idea to give high school students or advanced math students calculators that did not do any basic functions at all - just advanced functions. This might require increasing time for tests, but I'd still be in favor of it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-03 08:21 pm UTC (link)
I used calculators to teach exponents. My students wouldn't have been able to calculate beyond the third degree without a calculator, so having them do it on the calculator allowed them to create an advanced pattern and connect it to other patterns.

That's not a crutch - it's facilitating thinking, and higher-level thinking should not be limited to those who can perform rote calculations quickly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]couchtiger, 2009-07-03 08:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 08:33 pm UTC

[info]sputnik2009
2009-07-03 08:34 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure I get the question. I have dyscalcula and I had an IEP. With the IEP it didn't matter how my teacher felt about calculators, s/he couldn't take it away from me. Wasn't an option for her.

For a kid without a learning disability, it might be appropriate to require not using a calculator for basic math (single digit calculations, etc).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]unflexible
2009-07-04 03:18 am UTC (link)
I'm glad you said this. My 1st grader was just diagnosed wuth dyscalculia and this question made mer nervous.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]jewishconvert, 2009-07-04 05:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 11:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sputnik2009, 2009-07-04 04:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 05:22 pm UTC

[info]diamond_eyes18
2009-07-03 08:34 pm UTC (link)
In 4th grade, I think calculators are more of a hinderance than a help. At that age kids are still working towards basic math skills and a calculator will just make it so they don't need to master basic concepts...which they do. A person needs to have the ability to add, subtract, multiply and divide without using a calculator. Once they've mastered those, a calculator is a great way of simplifying tougher material.

It's kind of like spell check, I can't spell worth a damn and I think that's largely because I relied on microsoft word to correct all my mistakes throughout school.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]paksenarrion2
2009-07-03 08:54 pm UTC (link)
I agree with this.

Teaching kids simple math-addition, subtraction, divison and multiplication using a calculator is not teaching them the cricitcal skills they need. If a kid does not understand that 3 x 2=6 then if he uses a calculator and accidentally pushes 3 x 3, they would be less likely to have the realization that the answer is incorrect.

I did not use one in school until I took Trig. I can add a long column of numbers on a calculator and know that the answer is wrong (because I mis keyed something) even if I don't know what the right answer should be.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paksenarrion2, 2009-07-03 10:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 10:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paksenarrion2, 2009-07-04 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lsmsrbls, 2009-07-06 03:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-06 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lsmsrbls, 2009-07-06 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-06 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lsmsrbls, 2009-07-07 01:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-07 02:26 am UTC

[info]blueashke
2009-07-03 08:37 pm UTC (link)
I presume I've my hatred of calculators from having serious math nuts on my dad's side of the family, but there is very little I'd allow my child to use a calculator on before high school. But again, genetically speaking, my kids will most likely be good with math, so I don't know for sure.

I don't believe that any basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, or division ever needs a calculator, unless you need decimal answers vs fractions (that's more for division than any of the others). But I'll admit to my bias.

(Reply to this)


[info]amyura
2009-07-03 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Usually the IEP addresses calculator use during formal assessments (quizzes and tests). I've been told on numerous occasions that it is NOT a violation of a student's IEP if I say no calculators for a particular activity during class. I completely agree with your opinion on when the calculator is useful, and the purpose of the IEP.

I think that all students (and really, everybody, because the students will become adults someday) should know their addition and subtraction facts for up to 9 + 9 (and the inverse, 18 - 9) at a minimum, and their multiplication facts up to at least 12 * 12, by the end of elementary school, without a calculator. I think that students should also know the basic algorithms for addition, subtraction, and multiplication of multi-digit numbers, and the algorithm for long division (because news flash: it comes up again with polynomials in Algebra II). And I think students should have a good understanding of dealing with fractions and decimals, particularly the former, because not all calculators can handle fraction operations.

As a high school math teacher, I get the end results of the foundation that the elementary teachers lay. I completely understand that elementary teachers have their own curriculum standards to meet that were developed by "educators" turned politicians at the state department of education, and that those standards are often done in a vacuum. None of that is the elementary teachers' faults. But what students need as they come into high school math is to have those facts at their fingertips. That makes polynomial operations, factoring and evaluating limits a lot easier. It also trains them to perform mental calculations and conversions quickly, and to expect those calculations to be fairly easy; this translates to being able to evaluate derivatives and integrals much more quickly, and to converting degrees and radians.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-03 08:52 pm UTC (link)
I agree that they should have methods to do those computations at their fingertips by the end of elementary school, all other things being equal; I don't agree that they need standard algorithms to be able to do it. Most adults don't use standard algorithms to do that stuff; they use estimate-and-revise for most calculations. That's true of those doing advanced mathematics, too.

If my students' division algorithm, that they developed in a group based on the manipulatives and visuals that they were familiar with, will get them the right answer as quickly as the standard one, why on earth should I teach them the standard one? They have a better understanding of division than someone who learned the algorithm first, because they developed theirs based on conceptual understanding rather than this-is-how-you-do-it teaching.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pester, 2009-07-03 09:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 09:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pester, 2009-07-03 09:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 09:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pester, 2009-07-03 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pester, 2009-07-03 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]failstoexist, 2009-07-04 01:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pester, 2009-07-05 05:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]failstoexist, 2009-07-05 02:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zeldazonk, 2009-07-03 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-03 09:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amyura, 2009-07-04 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amyura, 2009-07-04 03:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 10:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sheisred, 2009-07-03 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snapefantasy, 2009-07-04 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amyura, 2009-07-04 02:34 am UTC

[info]lickintoadz
2009-07-03 08:51 pm UTC (link)
I'm on the fence with this. The kid needs help. I'd rather get him a tutor than have him rely on a calculator to do the math for him. Once he gets a good enough grasp on things, the calculator is fine. He can check his answers with it. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-03 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Yes - I try to instill in my IEP kids that they're to estimate and try to calculate first, then use the calculator to check. If the calculator is giving them a different answer from the one in their own head, consistently, they need to figure out where they went wrong so they can do it better the next time.

The issue I have is with so many parents telling their kids that use of a calculator is cheating at math. Telling them that eliminates all possibility that they could use the calculator as an aid to guess-and-check, and forces them to choose between being moral and being right - not a choice I really want to set up.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sheisred, 2009-07-03 11:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 01:33 am UTC

[info]audacian
2009-07-03 08:57 pm UTC (link)
I leave that kind of decision up to the teachers who know much more about educational theory and learning styles than I do.

(Reply to this)


[info]northernwalker
2009-07-03 09:28 pm UTC (link)
I think that's where as the parent I'd start drilling my kid at home with flashcards. They should know the standard addition/subtraction/division/multiplication. The calculator at that level is like spellcheck- fine for checking up on things but it shouldn't be used as a substitute for basic math or English skills.

(Reply to this)


[info]pester
2009-07-03 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Calculators should not be used at any time in the elementary years. The "math" taught in schools is appalling. Children need a firm grasp of algorithms before they tackle algebra, which is about what they should be doing in the fourth grade. And if they can't do it by hand, drill them until they can.

If one isn't comfortable with basic computation, they are not going to be able to solve advanced problems. They should be as comfortable with their times tables, long division, and so on as they are using the alphabet to make words.

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[info]zeldazonk
2009-07-03 09:40 pm UTC (link)
You wrote exactly what I wanted to say but did it more eloquently and in less words. :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]amspeck_myworld, 2009-07-03 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]milk_and_glass, 2009-07-03 10:09 pm UTC

[info]zeldazonk
2009-07-03 09:39 pm UTC (link)
Since when do kids get an IEP for math? I struggled with math for 12 years. I never had any IEP or intervention for my math issues. I found that when I actually practiced and did my homework, my understanding went up. A lot of kids just don't want to take the time to practice and memorize.


Calculators are a crutch, and I don't see why 4th graders are using them. I think curriculum has gone too far from the rudimentary memorization of math facts. In the elementary classes I've worked in, math teaching is allotted soemthing like 30-45 minutes a DAY. That's nothing. I think U.S. schools should model how Asian countries teach their kids math. American kids SUCK at math, as international comparisons show. Partly I think it's because they'd just rather do anything else than study math and the curriculum does not allow enough time for it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]pester
2009-07-03 09:55 pm UTC (link)
Presumably, Japanese people only come in one "learning style" and that's why they don't need fruity math in order to calculate proficiently.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jessiac, 2009-07-04 12:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 01:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]visual_syntax, 2009-07-03 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amyura, 2009-07-04 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 02:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zeldazonk, 2009-07-04 03:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amyura, 2009-07-04 03:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zeldazonk, 2009-07-04 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notbikiniready, 2009-07-04 02:05 pm UTC

[info]karnythia
2009-07-03 10:43 pm UTC (link)
If they have dyscalcula then I don't have a problem with them using a calculator. I'm not going to allow my kid to be punished for having an LD. If it's just a question of lacking basic skills and/or needing a different approach then we'd work on math at home in addition to whatever the school is doing. Kid #1 is excellent at math, but he can't do it with some of the newer methods. What works best for him is the old fashioned approach (memorizing his times tables and learning to solve 3 digit problems without all the little boxes) but we had to teach him that stuff at home so that he could stop struggling in math at school.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-04 11:30 am UTC (link)
You jumped from, "The teacher took the calculator away for certain lessons" to "my kid is being punished for having an LD." Can you really not see any other possibilities? Like, the kid was writing stuff down after punching it into the calculator without bothering to think about whether the answer made sense, so the teacher took away the calculator while the kid was estimating? Or, the teacher took away the calculator because the lesson was about using a hundreds chart for pattern development, and using the calculator was actually hindering the point of that particular lesson?

I can think of a dozen lessons where a calculator is not an appropriate tool, even for an LD kid - for whom I would then provide a MORE appropriate tool. Similarly, I can think of a dozen lessons where calculator use would benefit all kids, not just the LD kids.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2009-07-04 02:00 pm UTC

[info]laminy
2009-07-03 10:54 pm UTC (link)
Calculators don't, or at least shouldn't, have much of a place in elementary school, and maybe some of middle. We didn't start using calculators until grade eight, but right now, I have no idea how to do long division anymore, and I can't do long multiplication after a certain number of digits.

So my answer would have to a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. For some people they're a valuable tool, and for some they're a crutch. I don't think you can say for sure either way because which two students are going to learn exactly the same way with the same strengths and weaknesses?

(Reply to this)


[info]sheisred
2009-07-03 10:57 pm UTC (link)
I fall into the category of in the mean time, while the child is learning how to break things down without a calculator, let the kid use a damn calculator. As long as the child's special ed teachers and parents are working on the problem, why let the child fall even more behind in class? The goal is, of course, for the child to not need a calculator for simpler equations, but if the class is moving ahead with more complicated things that my child would otherwise be able to participate in with one small concession, I see no reason why not to allow it.

Also, if it's in the IEP, it's unequivocally NOT okay with me for someone to take away one of my child's accommodations simply because they have a personal problem with its use.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]amyura
2009-07-04 02:52 am UTC (link)
It's actually illegal for a classroom teacher to take away an accommodation. All changes must be made through a team meeting.

You can also get wording in the plan that prohibits the teacher from discussing the IEP or 504 in front of other students. (Which any good teacher would avoid anyway, but there's never a 100% guarantee of that.) I worked with a woman a few years ago who would, in front of the entire class, try to talk kids out of using some of their accommodations during tests, saying things like, "You don't really need a calculator on this, do you?" or "Are you sure you need to take the test in a different room?" I was like, *jawdrop* when I heard that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 02:55 am UTC

[info]visual_syntax
2009-07-03 11:16 pm UTC (link)
We had the same problem with calculators in a tutoring group that I did. In their case I took the calculators away. The kids were in the 3rd grade.

They were so behind in their math that they didn't know their basic multiplication tables. And I really worried that the calculator usage was cutting into their overall work ethic. I use shortcuts all the time, but I'm past college so I know that I have the basics down and they're down well. I don't know how a kid can function in higher grades if they don't learn the basics.

But I also went to 9 years of Catholic school so it might just be the memories of the nuns beating me with rulers talking. ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-04 01:22 am UTC (link)
Uh - since when is a kid considered behind for not knowing their multiplication tables in third grade? Even when I was going to school, mastery of times tables was considered something to be achieved by the end of grade four, and at the moment, mastery of multiplication up to 7x7 is expected for the end of third grade.

I think it's reasonable to adjust use of calculators based on the task at hand. If the task at hand is to learn multiplication tables, they shouldn't be using a calculator. If the task at hand to use problem-solving methods to solve a complex problem, and they're using the calculator to try out methods or check work or come up with difficult equations, then go for it. But like any other tool, learning when and how to use it, and when not to use it, are important.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-04 03:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]milk_and_glass, 2009-07-04 04:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lsmsrbls, 2009-07-06 03:01 am UTC

[info]firiels_cat
2009-07-03 11:19 pm UTC (link)
I would vote against the calculator. But as it is, all 4th graders in our district have to use them because they take the curriculum out of order and have kids figure the area of a shape before they teach them to multiply larger numbers. It stinks and I wish they would change it but it has to do with the stupid testing schedule.

But if my kid had an IEP, I would still want him to know how to do it without.

My middle child is not fast at his facts but he knows them well enough. I don't let him use a calculator because that would just keep those facts from being reinforced. Teachers these days don't understand the value of practice. (And I think IEP's are way overused)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-04 01:25 am UTC (link)
I use the teaching of area as the route for teaching multiplication. It provides the most solid visual of any problem-solving approach.

As for the practice - the issue is not whether to practise, it's what and how to practise it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-04 02:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 02:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-04 03:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 09:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-04 06:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-05 12:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-05 12:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]firiels_cat, 2009-07-06 03:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-06 11:33 am UTC

[info]drakonlily
2009-07-03 11:28 pm UTC (link)
I'm studying to be a Biomedical Engineer. I use my calculator for Differential Equations / Complex Maths. I do the easier math in my head. I think, from the perspective of someone who is doing higher math, it would have been horrible for me to not know the basic stepping stones. If you get the basics wrong (and if you just plug them in, I have found it easier for error) the your whole circuit ends up wrong. It also takes me more time if I break it down on the calculator.

I'm not an educator, but I feel like allowing children to be "lazy" with math is hurting them more than it's helping them.

(Reply to this)


[info]jessiac
2009-07-04 12:09 am UTC (link)
I don't know what IEP is.

I think learning to do things in your head is an extremely valuable skill. You won't always have a calculator ready, and it speeds up a lot of things. In that kind of situation I would probably get my kid lots of extra tutoring, if I could afford it. If not I'd try myself. I think that most kids can do OK in exams for maths if they put their mind to it. A C in GCSE is all they need, I think that's achievable even if you're awful at maths.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bollybollycorgn
2009-07-04 12:24 am UTC (link)
"I don't know what IEP is."

Me neither. I googled it. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualized_Education_Program

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jessiac, 2009-07-04 12:26 am UTC

[info]photogfrog
2009-07-04 12:24 am UTC (link)
I hate calculators in classes lower than Algebra BUT I can see why they are useful.

I would encourage them to have it handy but to do the math in their heads as much as possible. I would also try to make it more fun and slightly easier without compromising the curriculum.

If it were me, I might keep the calculator with me, the teacher and when said child needs it, I would try to assist them first and see if they can get it on their own. If not, then, I would allow them to use the calculator.

(Reply to this)


[info]fauxkaren
2009-07-04 12:42 am UTC (link)
I think that it's important for kids to be able to understand how to do the basic calculations without the aid of a calculator so that they can understand the concepts when you get to algebra and all that jazz. I don't like math. I only did pre-calculus and then I took AP Stats instead of calculus senior year of high school. But I still think learning basic math is really important.

(Reply to this)


[info]neurotic_orchid
2009-07-04 01:28 am UTC (link)
For most children, I think they should practice doing computation without calculators, at least until they start getting into more complex types of math that require multiple steps and problem solving. There isn't much need for calculators for normally functioning children in elementary school.

However, in the case of a child with a math disability in the area of computation, I think a calculator can be invaluable in allowing him or her to keep up with the rest of the class in math and to lean how to work through math reasoning tasks and complex problem solving. They should also be receiving one-on-one resource support to help them to work on improving computation skills independent of calculators.

The fact is, once we are out of school, calculators are readily available to us. If a child requires a calculator for computation and that allows them to keep up in math, I think we have the responsibility to provide them with one. If we do not allow these children to use calculators in the classroom, they often end up falling way behind in the areas of math in which they would otherwise be normally functioning, which does them a grave disservice. Keep in mind, calculators will not help much in cases where the math disability is impacting reasoning and not computation.

I'm training to become a school psychologist (thesis and part of my internship left, then I will be in the schools), so this issue is one of many near and dear to me. If a tool, particularly a readily available tool, will help a child with special needs to succeed in school, it should certainly be made available to him/her.

(Reply to this)


[info]pyxiwulf
2009-07-04 02:51 am UTC (link)
I think conceptual understanding is much more important than mental computation speed. Mental computation is for showmen not functional mathematicians. Calculators for all kids after kindy! They're not going to not learn simple facts just because they are doing them on the calculator.

I'm a big fan of spiral mathematics curricula as opposed to mastery. If my kid had to waste a ton of time on simple computation mastery she'd still be memorizing times tables in second grade like her peers. She's thriving on pre-algebra and the times tables are coming as she approaches the particular fact. We give her tips and tricks for mental computation as we come upon them, and she sure understands mathematics far better than the drilling mastery crap we got in our schools gave us.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]velvetpage
2009-07-04 03:00 am UTC (link)
I'm amused at all the people remarking on algebra as though it's some strange, big deal. The basic ideas of algebra are inherent in a number sentence with a blank in it, which is taught in grade one, and by grade five, there are variables involved. The transition to algebra is a gradual one that works its way all the way through the curriculum, because algebra is the name we give to number patterns describing change.

It sounds like your daughter is learning math the way I'm learning to teach it.

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(no subject) - [info]pyxiwulf, 2009-07-04 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyxiwulf, 2009-07-04 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 10:07 am UTC

[info]jewishconvert
2009-07-04 05:40 am UTC (link)
Mmmk, since math is my weak subject and I ended up finding out I have an L.D. in college (visual; my auditory processing is pretty good so until what was taught in class wasn't necessarily on the tests it didn't affect my grades all that much - except in math, which go figure, is mostly visual even in lecture and completely depends on being able to process the visual correctly)...

1. Kids with LDs and in IEP programs are supposed to be caught up to level, but accommodations given to the child for their disability are required by law. At least, in public schools. My teachers can't go, "Oh, well, she should know how to do this just as quickly and well as the other kids... So we're going to just ignore this little note here that I signed and consented to acknowledging these accommodations need to be made." The ADA laws don't really appreciate that type of attitude.

2. There's an assumption here that kids with LDs don't understand the concepts. This can be true - I certainly didn't get the concepts as fast as other kids my age, nor do I still in situations that involve a lot of visual processing (esp. math; most of the other class problems pretty much stopped when I could record classes/have my books turned into auditory books). But even when I got the concepts wrong I was likely to make a mistake. What teachers can do is require kids to show that they're doing the work that they then enter into the calculator. I.e., "seven groups of eight is...." and then they type it in the calculator. You can determine whether they get the concept without taking their disability accommodation away. Because that's what the calculator is, in this case. It is an accommodation for what their learning disability is. If I have a visual learning disability, my accommodation includes things that make it so I am less likely to die trying to keep all the things I'm seeing in the proper order.

3. Plenty of my peers are less intelligent than I am without any learning disability. But they're going to do better in situations that are highly visual and get the concepts faster. I get the concepts okay pretty quickly with one-on-one aid where I can really listen. Even so, visual processing problems aren't going to vanish with "practice."

4. If teachers hadn't had concepts like that when I was in elementary school, I probably wouldn't have been in any special ed class in any of my elementary school years. This idea that all children must show their understanding of a concept the exact same way KILLED me in elementary school. I spent 3-5 hours doing extra work to stay "caught up." With the accommodations I get now that I've been tested I pass a class on the same amount of work as all the other students. I see that as fair. At least, compared to giving the children with difficulty 3X as many work while they also spend 2-3 times as long struggling through work (which isn't going to change using the same technique since they are learning disabled), and then still have to do all the other classes as the other kids. If you give a child with dyslexia an audiobook, they're not reading with their eyes - but they still have to understand the content to talk about the book and write the essays out later.

5. My understanding is that refusing to accommodate for disabilities - including learning disabilities - is a little illegal.

6. I know many children who can multiply single digit numbers but were always allowed calculators for multiple-digit multiplication. The result is simply they don't understand the concept between 7X8 and 48X623. Which - I knew HOW to compute both when I was taught them. It was actually doing the entire process correctly - for both - that was a problem.

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[info]jewishconvert
2009-07-04 05:55 am UTC (link)
Note one: A few typos. >> That's actually due to being up almost 48 hours with no sleep.

Note two: Seriously, those accommodations saved me. I can mostly cope without them in non-math classes, though I still use them if lecture varies greatly from the reading. But math's always going to be pretty visual. Granted, I don't use a calculator where it isn't allowed at this point - seeing as it's college math the scientific calculator is use-able in all of the classes I take, at least. But I do tend to use it even for pretty basic math - otherwise I'm very likely to mess up and get the whole problem wrong later done the line.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]jewishconvert, 2009-07-04 06:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 11:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karnythia, 2009-07-04 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jewishconvert, 2009-07-04 05:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jewishconvert, 2009-07-04 04:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jewishconvert, 2009-07-04 06:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jewishconvert, 2009-07-05 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-05 01:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jewishconvert, 2009-07-07 04:20 am UTC

[info]katiedarling
2009-07-04 01:48 pm UTC (link)
I am going to say that there is a time for calculators and a time for working without. If we're trying to teach problem solving skills, a calculator is fine, as long as we are working with the child in another setting on basic math skills without one. There is a difference between memorizing 2+2 and learning to sort out that if I am going to the store to buy a $17 item, and I only have $12, I still need $5. One of these is a basic math skill, one is a basic life skill. In life, we have freaking calculators, because we don't always have the time for long division.

So basically, if my child is also spending time working on learning pen-an-paper math at a pace that works for him, then by all means, do the problem solving with the calculator.

Also, teachers that decide on their own that the IEP is BS piss me off.

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[info]velvetpage
2009-07-04 01:58 pm UTC (link)
This is pretty much exactly how I see calculators being used.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]katiedarling, 2009-07-04 02:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 02:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]katiedarling, 2009-07-04 02:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]velvetpage, 2009-07-04 02:42 pm UTC

[info]failstoexist
2009-07-04 01:49 pm UTC (link)
I encourage calculator use in my severely disabled students...but if the child is capable of adding, even with manipulatives or tally marks, for example, then they don't need a calculator for it in grade 4.

A child who is mainstreamed into a public school classroom is most likely able to do math without a calculator in some situations. full-time access is a crutch. Some more access than the rest of the class might be good, but not for things the child should be memorizing/doing without a problem.

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