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a response re: icon

  • May. 21st, 2006 at 12:35 AM
i wrote:

To Whom It May Concern:

I recently received an email from your LJ Abuse Team informing me that my that default userpic is inappropriate. I have carefully reviewed your restrictions for userpics and my user picture does not meet the criteria. It is not violate your TOS. Your TOS only specifies that "we require that your default userpic not contain anything too explicit. In particular, icons which are graphically sexual or violent in nature tend to be inappropriate for default userpics." In what way do you classify a photograph of an infant nursing, the single most natural act between a mother and child, as graphically sexual or violent in nature -- or indeed, as sexual at all? Breastfeeding is not a sexual act. It is not a violent act. This icon in no way violates your state Terms of Service.


Women have the legal right to breastfeed in public in all 50 states, many of which have laws which specifically protect a mother's right to feed her baby in public. Perhaps LiveJournal is not aware of the recent media coverage of cities governments and businesses which have tried to interfere with a mother's right to nurse her child?


Since you use a court ruling to define indecency and legally they'd be required to abide by the laws of the state where LJ is located (California) and also by the federal laws, perhaps you'd be interested to note these laws:

California: Cal. Civ. Code ?43.3
1997 Cal ALS 59; 1997 Cal AB 157; Stats 1997 ch 59

Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a mother may breastfeed her child in any location, public or private, except the private home or residence of another, where the mother and child are authorized to be present.

In other words, breastfeeding in public isn't subject to indecency laws, and that means it isn't indecent. If it's not considered offensive to have pictures of you and your child in your journal, then a picture of you breastfeeding said child is also acceptable. Federal law also protects women during breastfeeding.

Federal law and California law both state that nursing is exempt from indecency laws, and LJ should abide by their laws.

Sincerely,
Cindy Collins


"It is curious commentary on our society that we tolerate all degrees of explicitness in our literature and mass media as regards sex and violence, but the normal act of breast feeding is taboo." - American Academy of Pediatrics.

response:
Dear Ms. Collins,

Thank you for your inquiry. The standards informing LiveJournal's policy governing default user picture icons are not, broadly speaking, grounded in specific legal codes. Because LiveJournal is a privately held company, it can choose to set and enforce guidelines for use that are more strict in places than United States law would otherwise be. Specifically, default user picture icons are prohibited to contain overt violence, or a direct, unobstructed view of any primary or secondary sexual characteristics, regardless of the content of the icon itself.

This policy and the email you received are not grounded in the belief that breastfeeding is illegal, obscene, inappropriate, or otherwise subject to censorship. Rather, the content restrictions placed on default user picture icons are made necessary by the fact that default icons can be seen in many places within the LiveJournal.com domain; their appearance is not limited to entries or comments for which they have been selected. Because these icons can be seen in places on the site where one would not reasonably expect to find sexually explicit content, such as user directories and searches, they must not contain material which may be considered inappropriate for viewing in certain settings. We realize that breastfeeding is not a sexual activity, however images depicting the activity cannot be used as default icons if they display an unobstructed view of the subject's breasts.

You are free to use your breastfeeding icons within your personal journal and communities. The content restrictions apply only to default icons; non-default user pictures are not subject to the same restrictions, and community maintainers are free to decide for themselves what content, if any, to disallow in their communities.

Finally, please be aware that write-in campaigns are never effective in swaying the opinion of the Abuse Team or LiveJournal administrators, or in focusing attention on a particular issue. A flood of requests concerning the same issue only serve to slow down the responses given to valid inquiries such as your request for policy clarification.

Regards,
Carson
LiveJournal Abuse Team

Comments

[info]arianamama wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 04:45 am (UTC)
Something must be wrong with my monitor because my view of the breast in your default icon is OBSTRUCTED!!!
(no subject) - [info]jbarbie23 - May. 21st, 2006 04:47 am (UTC)
[info]arianamama wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 04:51 am (UTC)
No I'm totally serious. They want her to remove the icons she's using on this post. There's a baby nursing -- obviously the breast isn't unobstructed.
(no subject) - [info]jbarbie23 - May. 21st, 2006 04:56 am (UTC)
[info]arianamama wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 05:00 am (UTC)
I'm sorry. I've had a full day at an amusement park with the kids, my brain is so fried!
[info]cali4niachef wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 04:57 am (UTC)
LOL
[info]crescentmuse wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 01:54 pm (UTC)
ROTFLOL!
[info]cali4niachef wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 04:56 am (UTC)
what?
[info]jbarbie23 wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 04:59 am (UTC)
cannot be used as default icons if they display an unobstructed view of the subject's breasts.

they say it can't be used if it displays an unobstructed view of a breast - but that doesn't even describe your icon, since the baby is obstructing the view. So they still haven't explained why, even with all those many empty words.
[info]elkins wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 02:21 pm (UTC)
Unobstructed doesn't come close. And if these idiots knew anything at all about breastfeeding they might realize that a baby's mouth covers the nipple and aureola (or most of it, depending on the woman) and after all those are the "indecent" parts are they not?

No this icon on the other hand... :) ..
[info]watcher42 wrote:
May. 25th, 2006 05:51 pm (UTC)
Here's an image for them . . .
[info]jbarbie23 wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 04:46 am (UTC)
Finally, please be aware that write-in campaigns are never effective in swaying the opinion of the Abuse Team or LiveJournal administrators, or in focusing attention on a particular issue.

In other words, "Please be aware that the concerns of our customers are never effective in swaying the opinion of this company, and we don't give a crap what your priorities are."
[info]cali4niachef wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 04:56 am (UTC)
i know. assholes. fuck them.
[info]tahoebean wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 05:25 am (UTC)
I just received the same reply, what a load of shit.
[info]rootology wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 08:06 am (UTC)
Companies have to exist with abuse issues in a state that maximizes protection for them. We have no freedom of speech within private companies. LJ is a private company. If they deem internally something is obsene--say, my Kirk icon here--it is. I can protest, but it's their call.
[info]arianamama wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 12:47 pm (UTC)
And protesting is exactly what we are doing and will continue to do.
[info]bicrim wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 05:13 am (UTC)
I just got my "omg teh children might see a boobie" response from denise. fuck that shit. My husband is posting about this whole mess on slash-dot, where, as he puts it, "the geeks get their news". We also have a contact with a NYC area TV news reporter who interviewed us on milk banks and is really bro-BF. If he is needed as part of the media blitz, let me know and I'll call him. -kristin
[info]girlofthemirror wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 09:09 am (UTC)
I know this isn't a community that I am a member of, but I had to say I am completely on your side here, there is nothing obcene about breast feeding. Onething that made me laugh about the abuse teams' response was that secondary sexual characteristics would include things like beards or wide hips.
[info]cali4niachef wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 12:27 pm (UTC)
thank you, i really appreciate your suppodrt.
[info]loveneverfails wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 03:06 pm (UTC)
Hahahahaha! Thank you so much for the support! :-)
[info]runawaybunni wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 12:28 pm (UTC)
I see neither nipple nor areola so I don't see what is wrong.

And for those curious, the nipple/areola rule does not apply to male nipples. Apparently they are not sexual.
[info]raisangrrl wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 06:15 pm (UTC)
Well, yeah, cause men are always allowed to walk around topless. /sarcasm

Seriously though, I'm in NY and could walk around without a shirt, if I wanted to.
[info]runawaybunni wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 06:26 pm (UTC)
^I'm in NY too =D
[info]raisangrrl wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 07:38 pm (UTC)
That's awsome! Where do you live?
I live in Upstate NY (Saugerties/Kingston/Woodstock area)
[info]runawaybunni wrote:
May. 21st, 2006 07:40 pm (UTC)
I am in northern westchester county. The Bedford/Katonah area.
[info]helianthas wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 02:58 am (UTC)
we held a top-free picnic in a park in downtown Ithaca in... 2003 I think. 2 of my friends were arrested (I had just left to go back to work) and held in a cell while the police researched the law and then let them go, very apologetically. We had a 2nd top-free picnic, and the police chief came to that one! (Of course, so did the creepy men with binoculars, but that's beside the point...)
[info]raisangrrl wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 02:54 pm (UTC)
Police. You would thinkt hey would know the law, but it just goes to show that not all care what the law actually is. At least they were let go. Sucks though.
Was it fun? The picnic, I mean, lol.
And EW, creepy men with binoculars. Which is also funny, because they could have just gone, LOL.
[info]seawasp wrote:
May. 24th, 2006 11:59 pm (UTC)
Alas...
Do you know HOW MANY LAWS THERE ARE?

Police probably know many more of them, in detail, than the average person.

No human being on Earth could know ALL of them.

Ones like this they probably SHOULD look up before arresting someone, but then again, if they stopped every arrest to look up the law...

At least they were apologetic, which is more than the cops who arrested my mom for being peeved at them were.
[info]indianajoy wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 03:41 pm (UTC)
Ludicrous response from LJ
I am astounded at what they considered inappropriate. After breastfeeding two preemies as a way to give them optimum nutrition and regain some of the bonding we missed while I was unable to hold them. I nursed exclusively to avoid nipple confusion. I can not count the number of times I was absolutely humiliated by employees, managers and customers over my choice to breastfeed. People like this are only perpetuating the myth that nursing your child is unnatural or inappropriate. I always attempted to be discreet to avoid these problems, but it was ineffective. People were still offended and now I make a point to tell all nursing mothers they should be proud of the choice they made .
[info]chaotic_nipple wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 05:55 pm (UTC)
And yet I can display a pic of my completely unobstructed male nipple, with nary a peep. Go figure. :-P
[info]linedhel wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 07:06 pm (UTC)
Lame
To paraphrase: "While we realize your icon is not sexual, nor violent, nor illegal, nor inappropriate, nor offensive, we still cling to our ridiculous policy just the same. Any attempts to change our mind will be met with even more irrational decisions."

Carson, you are an idiot. Get a life.
[info]mommeeof8 wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 09:49 pm (UTC)
Thanks, little brother. LJ Abuse must have something interesting on the cereal every morning?
[info]chaotic_nipple wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 09:57 pm (UTC)
They let you on the internet at work? I thought it was supposed to be, like, a secure environment or something?
[info]mommeeof8 wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 10:38 pm (UTC)
They haven't said anything yet...
[info]little_e_ wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 07:19 pm (UTC)
So, wait... armpit hair is a secondary sexual characteristic... Does that mean unshaven armpits are banned?
[info]wmute wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 07:37 pm (UTC)
Along with peacock tails, fiddler crabs' oversized claws, ostrich wings, deer antlers...

Almost any picture of any kind of animal is going to run aful of this ruling.
[info]mistressnat wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 08:41 pm (UTC)
Dude, your beard is totally offensive. Why are you flaunting your secondary sexual characteristics in our faces like that?

Just kidding. :)
[info]stephanieb wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 08:25 pm (UTC)
Followed a link here from Pharyngula. Even though I'm childless by choice, I would stand up to defend any woman's right to feed her child anywhere. And this? This is stupid. LiveJournal administration must be smoking crack to think banning breastfeeding icons is the way to go.

Idiots.

And I just bought a paid membership, too.
[info]mistressnat wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 08:40 pm (UTC)
Hi, I followed a link here from Pharyngula too. I just want to tell you that I completely agree with you and support you and am spreading the word to my likeminded friends.

We should search up a bunch of user icons that have things like bears and red lips and complain to the abuse team that these secondary sexual charactersitics are offensive. ;)
[info]mouseworks wrote:
May. 23rd, 2006 10:17 pm (UTC)
First LJ broke the quick way to add photos to posts
,,,then they got upset about a breast curve?
[info]arc_legion wrote:
May. 24th, 2006 07:17 am (UTC)
Mistressnat, if I may add. Having also come from Pharyngula, I think it's due time we got lots of pictures of - you guessed it - unclothed animals. Cause they didn't say it had to be human to be on the hitlist. Yes indeed, the secondary sexual features of horses are indeed utterly offensive and should be banned.

Really, they can do whatever they want. If LJ is still good by you, go for it. If it's not, don't. I'll still use it because that picture of my horrific facial hair hasn't attracted any attention. Don't blame it on LJ - blame it on the supersensitive fools they have to worry about. As a private entity, every dollar counts.

I think it was Tide that had a focus group look into how to make containers less likely to topple off of an unsteady pile of groceries onto the locks of someone's car door.
[info]kaleki wrote:
May. 24th, 2006 07:23 am (UTC)
I totally support you in your campaign.
[info]watcher42 wrote:
May. 24th, 2006 02:05 pm (UTC)
Boobs on LJ
It never fails to amaze and disgust me when a company is so concerned that they might offend someone somewhere at some time that they manage to offend a great many people immediately. At a time when states all over the country, and countries all over the world, are doing what they can to promote breastfeeding, LiveJournal suppresses and insults the practice. Smooth business move, that. You not only come down on breastfeeding, but tell everyone not to bother complaining because you're not listening, that your narrow, frightened little minds are closed. LJ, get over tit!

I don't figure to be on LJ long. I only registered to post this and the accompanying pic. Further posts & pics might well get me booted. Not a problem - I don't want to support a forum that treats its users this badly. I will be telling anyone who will listen about this shameful nonsense, and I hope all of you who hear about this do the same.
[info]inoah wrote:
May. 25th, 2006 05:42 pm (UTC)
Finally, please be aware that write-in campaigns are never effective in swaying the opinion of the Abuse Team or LiveJournal administrators, or in focusing attention on a particular issue.

Like any other corporation, the only message they really listen to is their bottom line. If you are a paying subscriber, don't renew your subscription, and focus your writing campaigns on encouraging others not to do so either.

I'll have to think about whether I renew mine.
[info]knight_owl0006 wrote:
May. 31st, 2006 08:43 am (UTC)
People are stupid and Six A Part sucks, it is all there fault. They are the asses that bought out LJ and decided to just throw random senseles rules..or not even rules...their personal preferances onto LJ users.

There is nothing at all wrong with breast feeding, all mothers should do it. There is nothing you can do to have a healther child.
[info]superslash wrote:
Jun. 2nd, 2006 06:21 pm (UTC)
This has gotten all the way to the Topfree Equal Rights Association
Got a link to this from www.tera.ca, and while i doubt slashdot will post this i'm pretty sure that Morons.org will.
(no subject) - [info]nude_is_cool - Jun. 5th, 2006 06:47 am (UTC)
(no subject) - [info]nude_is_cool - Jun. 9th, 2006 05:17 pm (UTC)