BitterCon - the Convention right in your back yard

joining bittercon to ask

2008-08-16T21:27:47Z

so, will there be you-tubing mythcon?

BitterCon: Dead Dog Party

2008-08-11T16:23:16Z

The Dead Dog Party is going on here, with wine, food, a photo and discussion.

Authorized Cruelty

2008-08-10T15:47:35Z

Doing mean things to your characters--how do you bring yourself to it? You would never kick a puppy or arrange a lethal trap for a pack of heroes, but your villain does, and loves it. How do you get into the mindset of your darker characters, and deal with the consequences? Discuss here

Bear won a Hugo!

2008-08-10T03:57:24Z

w00t!!!

We're toasting her right this moment! Pictures later, and congrats to Bear!

After the Apocalypse

2008-08-10T03:36:41Z

Here I ask why there are more stories about stopping an apocalypse or living through one than rebuilding after the destruction. Some discussion earlier jogged my mind and I thought I'd bring the topic up. Why is destruction more interesting than creation?

What makes it not YA?

2008-08-10T01:15:14Z

There's been a lot of talk in this con so far about YA. YA has been described elsewhere in Bittercon as a bridge, a safe place to go when you've outgrown children's books and aren't yet ready for adult books - though, as mrissa pointed out, lot of us of all ages do read both YA and adult books - I have, from about age 10 to the present. In one comment thread, someone took issue with my contention that Peg Kerr's The Wild Swans is *not* YA (despite two protagonists who are in fact young adults) so I thought I'd bring the question up here.

What makes a book not YA to you? Is it just lots of gratuitous sex and violence? A focus on the lives of people who are older, acting in accordance with the lessons learned over time, like a Barbara Hambly character? is it the level of complexity? Or is it something else?

Discussion here.

bittercon @ 2008-08-09T21:13:00

2008-08-10T01:14:09Z

The virtual bar is open!

Bittercon: It's so Magical to be Homeless! The Romance of Urban Fantasy

2008-08-09T21:30:24Z

Does "Urban Fantasy" romanticize life on the streets?

Discussion takes place here.

The Problem of Heroes

2008-08-09T16:08:18Z

If we don't want to write Mary Sue or Marty Stu, and we don't want to read them, what are we looking for in heroes? What works and what doesn't when you read or write? link here.

Bittercon: Blood and Fur

2008-08-09T00:31:02Z

This discussion is available here.

This is a revisiting of a panel I sat on last year for Dragon*Con 2007 in the YA track. We don't have to stick with YA books for Bittercon, but I thought I would add this panel for another pertinent topic.

From Stephenie Meyer to Cassandra Clare in YA or from Kim Harrison to Patricia Briggs in adult fantasy, books about vampires and werewolves are enjoying a hair-raising resurgence in popularity. Join us as we discuss why they are resonating with readers and learn about some of the new blood in this growing genre.

Vampires and werewolves were already popular before Meyer's books came out, of course, but why do these mythological creatures continue to maintain such interest? If you read them, why? If you don't, why not? What are some of your favorite books or series and why? Why do so many women appear to be drawn to tales of vampires and werewolves?

Also, why are vampires often portrayed as the upper class monsters while werewolves tend to stay in the lower classes?

sartoriashad a discussion about vampires earlier this week on her journal, but this panel can expand upon the topic by adding werewolves to the mix, too.

Bittercon: Fairy Tales and YA

2008-08-08T19:56:38Z

The discussion is available here.

Fairy tales and folklore have long been providing inspiration for writers and other artists. With the recent surge of popularity in young adult and children’s literature, especially fantasy, the subgenre of fairy tale and folklore retellings seems to be flourishing again. Ranging from the Once Upon a Time series published by Simon Pulse and Michael Buckley’s Sisters Grimm series to titles by Shannon Hale, Elizabeth C. Bunce, Sarah Durst and many others (see 2008 New Releases), well-known and some lesser known tales are getting exposure.

What are some of your favorite fairy tale treatments in YA and children’s literature, both past and present? Are they reinventing the tales for our era or mostly sticking to the trends and morals of past centuries? Why do you like or dislike to read in this fantasy subgenre? What are some other tales you would love to see treated even if only a handful of people know the tale?

I'm cross posting this on the SurLaLune Discussion Board, too.

Bittercon: Sex and the Single Alien

2008-08-08T18:37:43Z

davefreer posts this topic:

I've been reading sf/fantasy for a long time, and worse, was brought up into it - meaning among sf from as far back 1930's. I've noticed how -- in most cases -- the socio-sexual mores of alien societies (and human/alien meetings) actually are mostly just a reflection of prevalent attitudes of the day. From classic patriarchal, through 'free love', to a mixture of that and matriarchal (patriarchal is currently out of fashion;-)). Given that aliens will be alien, and that good sf should be exploratory and yet logical, what sort of socio-sexual mores will we finally find out there? What impact are these going to have on humans, given that our history shows some of us are xenophobic and others decidedly xenophilic? Discuss here

How to Listen (and also, maybe, write) to the Radio

2008-08-08T17:50:21Z

I wrote in response to sartorias first bittercon post that I would like to hear more about radio .... she has encouraged me to lead this, but I feel I'm doing this very much under false pretences, since I have never written anything for radio, produced or directed anything on radio, and wouldn't describe myself as an avid radio listener, just an occassional one!

[ETA: what I had already heard about radio was a presentation by radio producer/director Scott Fredericks (aka an actor - Day of the Daleks, etc.) I recommend him to anyone organizing a con]

So I am hoping that I will just throw out a few questions and observations, and those of you who DO have knowledge will take it from here.

My first question: so what's the market (or audience?) like, then?

I can answer for the UK that Radio 4, there is an hour or two a day of radio drama.
This week includes a detective thriller, dramatisation of a novel by Pamuk, a drama about retired actors, a thriller set in 10th century Japan, sit coms, serial dramas, play about a cold-war spy, a psychological thriller, a play about a man on death row, and Thursday we have 'Steinbeck in Avalon' (characters include Steinbeck/Lancelot, and the other Round Table regulars).

My second question:
In the Good Old Days, radio plays were recorded in big rooms. This meant a conversation could go like this:
John: Hello? Anyone at home? (calling loudly, a long way away)
Hero: In the kitchen, John! Come on in! (calling loudly, right here on the mike)
John: Have you got that dog with you? (getting nearer all the time he speaks, and reducing his volume accordingly)
Hero: Oh, don't mind Rollo! (somewhat loudly, right here on the mike)
John: Well, last time .... (approaching right up to the mike, voice at normal levels)
Rollo: Bark! BARK! Bark! BARK!!! (fx).
John: Argh! Gerrof!! Call your flaming dog, OFF, Hero!!! (loudly, moving fast away from the mike)

Today, John and Hero are both standing right by the mike in a little room, speaking in normal voices, and all that shouting and approaching stuff is done done digitally). How is it done where you are? Me, I think it makes a difference (listenting to old recordings vs. new ones). As writers, what do you do about this?

The bleeding obvious about radio:
* you can't see what's going on. This means radio is very different as a media - as different to TV as TV is to paper.
Decent writers go with this ... it's radio, not TV with the pictures turned off ... some (e.g Douglas Adams in his Hitchhiker series) use narrators - others ( can't recall any at the moment, someone please prompt me) use something not unlike a Greek chorus. On Radio 4, I'm not sure who scripts the link person, but they often operate as a narrator "And now, the Afternoon Play. We join physicist Dr Hero Bollinger in the kitchen of the 18th century Kentish farmhouse she has not left since meeting an alien in 1985 ..." I don't know who writes these links. Here is a real example.

On the Greek chorus thing: two people speaking at once is very difficult to listen to. Which is probably why I can't recollect it ... at the time I thought interesting rather than good. Many of the really great radio plays seem to be monologues. The title of this post is nicked from Joyce Grenfell and Stephen Potter. You can listen to it here. I am struggling to recall the title of the JG monologue I really want to link to as an example, so will abandon this paragraph for now!

Well, that's enough for now ... fingers crossed the links work ...

Not even ETA: I cannot work out how to post both to my journal and bittercon ... dual threads will result....

Monsters!

2008-08-08T14:57:50Z

Have we outgrown them? Do we want to cuddle the vampires? Hosted here.

Popularity vs Critical Acclaim

2008-08-08T14:12:38Z

Why are some authors selling truckloads of novels, but not winning prizes while others barely scratch out a living while filling their mantles with awards? Would you rather be a popular best-selling author, or garner the critical acclaim of the upper crust? Is it possible to do both?

I tweak the discussion a little, over here

Virtual Hugo Losers Party

2008-08-08T14:08:00Z

Saturday night, I plan to have my very own Hugo Losers party here on the internets. It will take place in this comment thread in my LJ, and you're all invited.

Especially if you're also (a) not at Denvention and (b) nominated. After all, it wouldn't be a bittercon without a Hugo Losers party!

Unfortunately, it will be BYOB. And BYOS.

Doors open at 7:30 PM Mountain Time (that's 9:30 PM for those of you on the East Coast.) Party runs until somebody goes off the balcony, or ~~hotel~~ livejournal security comes to shut us down.

It's a glamorous life.

Bittercon: Humor and Seriousness

2008-08-08T11:53:39Z

Posting here and on my journal--feel free to discuss either place!

How do these two mix, especially (but not necessarily exclusively) in YA? Or maybe I should say, how best do they mix? When I was reading fantasy and science fiction as a kid, most of the stuff I read was pretty serious--there might have been moments of humor, but the overall tone was serious. A lot of the stuff my own kids have read, though, seems to have humor interlaced through it--so much so that I wonder if it's possible to have a story with a serious tone and *not* leaven it with humor.

So, writers and readers, what do you think? What do you prefer? What do you like best?

Meanwhile, in a photographic studio behind the Locus office.

2008-08-08T09:22:38Z

Some people think the moon landings were faked.

What evidence is there for the existence of a Worldcon?

After all, there is a picture of the Bittercon dealers' room.

Homeschooling Moms Who Write - how to get it all done

2008-08-08T06:14:40Z

Tired, your schedule full, the kids doing homework, running around like little monkeys avoiding homework, the bird is calling out an attention-song, and your husband is late home from work because of traffic, again - sound like the best way to write?

Well, if you're a homeschooling mom - or dad! - who writes, you are all too familiar with this situation, or something mighty similar, and yet if you are to get that story that plagues and obsesses all your thoughts out of your head, or perhaps you've been doing this long enough to have a deadline to meet, just what do you do to get it all done?

And What Do Writers Sacrifice, anyway?

I've got a corner full of toys and books for the kids, some great, comfy chairs and couches to sit in, so stop by, set a while, and let us know just how you manage to get things done. We'd love to have you. :)

We're right over here!

Bittercon: Fairy Tales, Familiar and -- Not

2008-08-08T02:33:25Z

How many fairy tales do you really think you can count on being familiar to somone?

Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Hansel and Gretel, Jack and the Beanstalk, Little Red Riding Hood, Goldilocks and the Three Bears -- not many more, I think.

And how many hundreds of thousands of fairy tales have been collected? Not even counting those that vanished with their tellers?

Hosted here.

BitterCon: Urban Fantasy Expectations: Fantasy or Romance?

2008-08-08T02:28:11Z

So far the discussion has been pretty critical of Romance, so if any Romance readers/writers are reading this, please speak up. I really would like to hear your side of the story.

So Urban Fantasy is the hot new genre, partly for being new and partly because it's luring Romance readers (and Romance has always been big). But some UF is still Fantasy, not Romance, and the genres have different conventions and expectations. So how do tell which applies to the book you're holding? Sure, some publishers will write "Paranormal Romance" on the spine, but not all will. And some bookstores (and libraries) will shelve some as Romance and some as Fantasy, though that seems more based on the author's other books than anything else (and YA often doesn't have genres separated).

I'm not actually very sure what the different conventions are, since I've never read a Romance book that wasn't also Fantasy, Science Fiction, or Mystery. But a few things that seem to be expected: female protagonist with low self-esteem, one True Love, multiple third person POVs (so the reader can see what different character are thinking in the same scene), and often ends with a wedding. Fantasy sometimes does each of these too, but the good stuff often doesn't, having confident heroines, a romantic plot arc (instead of uncontrollable lust at first sight and/or magical "proof" of True Love), first person POV, and the wedding is postponed as long as possible (because it makes sequels harder to write). I've also heard that Romance readers are uncomfortable with the way UF heroines have multiple sexual partners, but that's not that common in the books I've been reading.

Now for a specific example: one of my current favorite authors is Patricia Briggs, whose Mercy Thompson series (starts with Moon Called) is highly recommended to anyone interested in the subgenre. This series is more in the Fantasy style (and the author had written several High Fantasy novels before striking it rich in UF), so I am somewhat surprised that most of her fans seem to be Romance readers (this is my impression based on posts made to her web forum). And I just finished her latest novel Cry Wolf, from a spinoff series (same setting, some overlap of characters) which was obviously Romance. This new series was launched with a novella (but that is a different rant), published in an anthology labeled "Paranormal Romance/Dark Fantasy", but the novel just says "Fantasy" (the different publishers may explain this).

ADDENDUMS
Thinking about this some more last night and this morning, I think what bugs me about Romance is that despite the romance being the main focus, there isn't any real depth. The characters just feel inexplicable lust for each other at first sight, and then by the end of the book declare their love for each other; there's never any attempt to get to know the other character and actually develop the relationship. It's like the author (and readers) want all the benefits of love, but don't want to have to put any effort into building it (cross-reference with the issue of entitlement in the Heritage in Fantasy panel). And that makes me wonder if the Romance genre may actually be more harmful to women's self perceptions than stick figure supermodels. (And I'm starting to sound like "This is poorly executed wish-fulfillment, so I'll call it Romance," so maybe it's time to change the subject.)

What do I mean when I say "Urban Fantasy"? Well, basically I mean Contemporay Fantasy; UF is just easier to say, and I had thought everyone else meant the same thing I did (the comment below about UF not having vamps or weres was a big surprise). So: Urban Fantasy has to have something supernatural (though it can be ambiguous as to whether that element is actually real: Shetterly's Dogland or Edghill's Bast series), and it needs a modern (at the time of writing) setting on Earth, though alt-hist Earths (Hamilton, Harris, Briggs, Stroud, Garrett's Lord Darcy) or parallel universe Earths (Jasper Fforde, Duane's Stealing the Elf-King's Roses) also count. I don't include Historical Fantasy (Clarke, Novik, Wrede, Stevermer), nor secondary world fantasies set in cities (Leiber, Pratchett, Brust, Sagara, Martha Wells). But I do include YA and younger works (Rowling, Duane, Stroud, Westerfeld, Larbalestier) and those with rural or small town settings (Harris, Briggs).

I view Paranormal Romance as UF written with Romance tropes/conventions. I haven't actually read any LKH (I had suspension of disbelief problems with the very first Anita Blake), but I wonder if she really is PR (it's not about the sex, that's orthogonal to Romance) despite getting blamed for it. The multiple partner comment above makes me think she's the author Romance readers/writers point at when explaining why they need their own genre away from those icky fantasy weirdos. And last I heard, Romance is still strongly anti-gay, so they won't want Tanya Huff either.

On a similar note, is Luna a Paranormal Romance imprint? They're an imprint of Harlequin, but what I've read from them (Resnick, Gilman, Snyder, Sagara, Murphy) didn't seem any more romantic than any other fantasy (less so than Lackey or McCaffrey). And two of those authors were writing High Fantasy, not UF. Juno may be PR, but I've only read one book from them so far (Douglas' Dancing With Werewolves).

ETA: Stuff in response to comments.

BitterCon - The ConSuite

2008-08-07T19:10:51Z

Er, the ConSweet?

Every con has a ConSuite to bulk up on calories, soda and beer (if you're legal), so feel free to get up and check out your fridge at any time -- seems to me, a newbie who just discovered BitterCon, that the BitterConSuite is now open 24/7 in all usable dimensions.

To Celebrate

May I propose that you join in Monday 11 August 2008's National S'mores Day? I have a recipe for No Bake S'mores on my blog.

Thanks for playing the home game. See ya 'round.

Dr. Phil

Fantasy of Manners--subversive or backward?

2008-08-07T16:28:12Z

In this post I throw out some ideas about Fantasy of Manners,and the accusations that it's wish fulfillment for those who yearn after the days of yore when everyone knew his place. Or is it subversive, as others maintain?

Or maybe it's neither of these things? Come on over and share your ideas.

BitterCon: Taking Writing Questions

2008-08-07T15:52:34Z

This is something I do occasionally in my LJ, and we've had some good discussions from it: if anyone has a question about writing, my writing or just writing and/or publishing topics in general, comment with it in this post here and I'll try to answer it. Basic beginner questions are very welcome, as those are usually fairly easy to answer. If you want to take a look at questions previous commenters have asked, they're tagged here.

ETA: First round of Bittercon questions answered here.
ETA Again: Second round of questions here.
Third round here.

BitterCon - Heritage in Fantasy

2008-08-07T14:46:03Z

Heritage is a really common trope in fantasy stories, be it the noble or royal heritage, the dark family secret, magic in the blood, or the hidden past of a famous relative. Even in more modern fantasies (one of the major criticisms leveled at Harry Potter is the eponymous character's reliance on inherited wealth and connections), this seems to be quite common. How do you feel about these tropes? Do you use them? Do you avoid them? Do you play with them? What are some examples of the trope done well or poorly? Is there a way to write a fantasy story without interacting with the trope in some way?

Hosted here.