M-Chan ([info]dieinahole) wrote in [info]bad_rpers_suck,
@ 2006-12-31 15:33:00
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Current mood: contemplative
Current music:Godfrapp: 'OohLaLa'

Because it was an intelligent honest question...
Posting this for [info]mattybee because I felt that his question was valid and deserved a real answer.



My Man said this, I am posting it here for you... From one Hetero man to another.

'If a straight girl wants to reverse the role that she plays in real life (I.E. taking all the time) and be the dominant partner, with a guy, then she has two choices in RP.

A) She can play a dominant female... with a strap on or. B) a homosexual male.

Option A is problematic because: If someone is playing a straight male character to their dominant female, they are not ready to blur the lines of their sexuality by doing the buttsecks... which is commonly a homosexual activity. Most straight men will tell you that the Buttsecks Will NEVER happen, because admitting that one likes their prostate loved on while sexing is pleasurable would mean they were somehow gay. (and most straight guys.. have issue with that right there)

Thusly, Option B is the only thing left to said ladies. Which is playing a gay male, be it top or bottom.'


I personally, myself, agree with this. It is difficult to make people understand that a girl just might want to give it now and again, to assert her own dominance over another, as is so commonly done to women the world over, thusly, it is most likely an outlet for their own manliness and desire to top their man or their boy toy or whatnot. (This is strictly an opinion, not set in stone so no flaming please)

It is socially unacceptable IRL to have a girl who is dominant and a girl who wants her man to scream for her in bed, thusly... again, back to the outlet thing. Got to get it out some how, right? lest she bind and gag her man and butt rape him mercilessly.

Women are traditionally...sexually repressed, oppressed and often portrayed as hussies or whores if they like sex or any thing resembling deviant. And the idea that a woman is dominant and assertive shatters the age old picture of a quiet, demure little doormat who bends to her husband's/man's will without question or even voicing any desire for herself, living only for him.

The world still clings to this obviously outmoded view of women and has a hard time adjusting to the fact that women have their own sexual desires and can often be as competitive and aggressive as men. It upsets the balance, so most chicks... may be using Yaoi as an outlet for their sexual frustrations that they cannot express In real life. Be it because they are in a place where it would be unsafe to do so, or because they are.. 'in the closet' so to speak about what they like. It is difficult to explain to a man that you want to top him, or.. make him beg or any number of things that may include the buttsecks.

Alternately... I have to say I have never seen a straight guy do Yaoi. They just don't do it. It falls back to the fact that men have been programmed their whole lives to be manly and macho and to hate the buttsecks. Society has taught them that it is wrong and unacceptable and that if they like it they are wrong too. But even in the Kama Sutra there are hints for women to make their man feel spectacular this does include things like massaging the prostate during sex. which is all the Buttsecks really does. A long drawn out way to reach that sweet spot. Or... commonly known as the G-Spot.

But then again... most heterosexual men cannot RP a girl, be she straight or Gay. This is simply a lack of knowledge in regards to how a girl thinks, acts and other weird girl things... like obsessing over your ass, or squealing over a cute outfit. Men are just not wired that way. Poor dears. They can try all day long but it is simply not in their nature. That is to say, that I have indeed seen a gay guy do a spectacular female. Perhaps it is because they are closer to girls then straight guys, or because of their inherent whatever it is that makes men gay. They simply have a deeper understanding then straight men. But again, I have seen very few gay guys do girls. Simply the way it is. It is mysterious to be sure, and baffling to almost everyone of a heterosexual bent. Why would a girl play a gay man? It is a strange turn of events and I think it has become so popular because they see that it is acceptable to express this way so it has become HUGE. It has become a fad, just like being bisexual was a fad for a while, but the hubbub died down and it is almost mainstream now.

However, rejecting someone's app simply because you do not or cannot do the buttsecks is rather stupid, especially if this RP said they accepted Het also. But... I digress and I have been extremely long winded. But I do hope that this post explains a bit. I myself loving the Yaoi but having a smart objective man to help me explain what and why Yaoi is so popular.

Again... For those flamers out there... This is conjecture, not fact and I am sure that my opinion is biased but I hope all of you are adult enough to take what is said with a grain of salt and act maturely about this issue.




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[info]layered
2006-12-31 08:49 pm UTC (link)
I'm... not only a girl who plays homosexual guys, but I'm also a homosexual woman.

And I think you're spot-on, really. So I hope you don't get flamed, because you've brought up some very valid points. (I took a lot of sociology courses last semester, lol. I see precisely what you mean.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 09:19 pm UTC (link)
It took me a small while to get all my ducks in a row about this issue but I had help from my man who has also had that very same question and for the longest time I could not explain it.

I do hope this clears up not just Mattybee's question but everyone else's because he is not the only one who has questioned this baffling precident.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]goodconceited
2006-12-31 08:52 pm UTC (link)
I second what the comment above says; this really is spot on, and I hope you don't get flamed for it.
For that matter I don't see how [info]mattybee deserved to be flamed at all, either. A question is a question.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 09:20 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. Those that insta-flame have got to be the most insecure people on the planet, to simply lash out before trying to come up with an honest answer. It makes them look like idiots who are just showing thier asses, and really it looks childish and entirely unprofessional Only immature children Insta-flame, IMHO.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]izzyryu, 2006-12-31 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pure_smut, 2007-01-01 02:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sukael, 2007-01-01 08:26 am UTC

[info]linear_flower
2006-12-31 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Very well said, I think you've got it perfect.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 09:21 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, thank you. I do hope it helps.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]rowena742
2006-12-31 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Nice, but...this couldn't have been a direct reply to his post why?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]goodconceited
2006-12-31 08:57 pm UTC (link)
Another comment in his inbox? At this point? =\

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]slwatson, 2006-12-31 09:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rowena742, 2006-12-31 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 09:46 pm UTC

[info]stolisomancer
2006-12-31 09:26 pm UTC (link)
Just... two little points, with no flaming involved or intended (look, I'm using the Winslow icon, how can anything involving the Winslow be hateful):

Alternately... I have to say I have never seen a straight guy do Yaoi. They just don't do it. It falls back to the fact that men have been programmed their whole lives to be manly and macho and to hate the buttsecks.

I think you're overthinking.

A straight guy doesn't "do yaoi" because it's not relevant to his interests. It's not a masculine reaction at all. It just has no real appeal to him. As a straight guy, I have the same reaction to yaoi as I do to, say, an article on African customs in National Geographic. I put on my monocle, I squint, and say to myself, "By George, these other people who are not me get up to some interesting things!" Then I chortle, finish my tea, and go about my day.

It has nothing to do with being afraid of one's prostate, although Lord knows if you were, it'd be perfectly understandable, as the prostate is this horrible time-delay tumor generator sitting on up there just waiting to fuck your life up. It's just not something I feel a particular need to read about. In a series of threads where a common reaction has been "...well, I like it 'cause I like it," I feel fairly comfortable saying "I don't like it because I don't like it."

But then again... most heterosexual men cannot RP a girl, be she straight or Gay.

Turn it back around: most heterosexual women cannot RP a man who reads right to another man. I've seen you try, and nine times out of ten, it doesn't work.

A useful phrase I've seen used to describe a stereotypical guy's thought process is that we tend to bypass the meditative circuit; we do what feels right at the time, then find out from the consequences of the action whether it was the right decision or not.

Nine times out of ten, if a girl is playing a guy, gay or straight, that girl tends to play the guy as endlessly sensitive, caring, and deliberative, in a way that reads very false.

If a guy wants to play a decent woman, what he has to do is take every decision he makes and weigh it from every possible angle. If a woman wants to play a decent guy, make every decision as fast as you possibly fucking can.

It's just the gender gap. I've discussed this endlessly with my IRL tabletop group (three girls, two guys, and my own humble self), and it's simply the gender gap manifesting itself in this arena.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 09:38 pm UTC (link)
OH my well said and well put. I had not taken into account the gender gap too much in my answer to this question.

I have never seen a girl pull off a good straight man either. But I did not put it in there because it was a question of gay men rather then straight.

The impulse to play a guy who is in touch with himself and sensitive to a girl's needs, is the woman's desire for such a thing coming to the fore. When in this day and age, most guys are rather impulsive and not forward thinking.

Again, not anyone's fault...it's just the way people are wired.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]stolisomancer, 2006-12-31 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daetrin_n, 2006-12-31 09:46 pm UTC
Hope this clears things up a bit more. No offense meant. - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stolisomancer, 2006-12-31 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 09:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daetrin_n, 2006-12-31 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stolisomancer, 2006-12-31 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daetrin_n, 2006-12-31 11:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_geist_, 2006-12-31 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stolisomancer, 2006-12-31 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_geist_, 2007-01-01 12:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stolisomancer, 2007-01-01 03:36 am UTC

[info]dusk
2006-12-31 09:41 pm UTC (link)
Your point is great and valid and all, but I don't think it really needed a seperate post ... especially since this post isn't really about bad RPers, as far as I can tell.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 09:48 pm UTC (link)
See above metioned clarification for the reasoning of an entirely new post. Please and thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dusk, 2006-12-31 10:23 pm UTC

[info]serinance
2006-12-31 09:42 pm UTC (link)
Dude, you got flamed for this?

This is perfectly valid (I'm a bisexual female even though I'm in a relationship with another female) and I understand it. I am the dominant one anyway and I enjoy playing a submissive male, it's an excellent way to vent.

You're spot on. ♥

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 11:30 pm UTC (link)
And the flaming only got worse... **points to the below hour long diatribe where everyone gets on their soap box and tries to outshout the other**

I wish people would just take the words as they are meant and not take offense at the merest suggestion that stereotypes still exist in a 21st century world.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shadokitty
2006-12-31 09:42 pm UTC (link)
I play on a place where I have seen a lot of males play females, and vice versa don't know if they are gay or not, but I have seen that it can be done, but even at this place there are those that seem to have problems especially if someone admits that the player behind the screen is not the same as the character.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 09:54 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. I am glad you have seen good examples of Good RP. Likewise, I have also seen people get totally run out of RPs for being one thing IRL and RPing something else in the games. It's a sad close minded thing to do that, to be so freaked and so insecure about your own sexuality that you run off the people that ARE secure in what they want/desire/think is awesome.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shadokitty, 2006-12-31 10:05 pm UTC

[info]stolisomancer
2006-12-31 09:54 pm UTC (link)
I should also note that given the context of this conversation, you could perhaps find a better noun to describe "people who may want to flame me" than "flamers."

If you keep that up, you will return to your house one day to find it has been broken into and redecorated.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps I should have clarified yes, but I am safe in my home and safe in the knowledge that if such a thing were to occur, that the wrath of whatever laws about vandalizing one's home are in place would vindicate me and send the obviously unstable moron to jail for a most inconveinient amount of time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]stolisomancer, 2006-12-31 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]uptothetask, 2006-12-31 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:46 pm UTC

[info]molotovcoqtiz
2006-12-31 09:58 pm UTC (link)
'If a straight girl wants to reverse the role that she plays in real life (I.E. taking all the time) and be the dominant partner, with a guy, then she has two choices in RP.

A) She can play a dominant female... with a strap on or. B) a homosexual male.

Option A is problematic because: If someone is playing a straight male character to their dominant female, they are not ready to blur the lines of their sexuality by doing the buttsecks... which is commonly a homosexual activity. Most straight men will tell you that the Buttsecks Will NEVER happen, because admitting that one likes their prostate loved on while sexing is pleasurable would mean they were somehow gay. (and most straight guys.. have issue with that right there)

Thusly, Option B is the only thing left to said ladies. Which is playing a gay male, be it top or bottom.'


You obviously don't know many heterosexual submissive men then. As a domme irl, in the scene, I know many het males that see receiving during anal as a acceptance of their place as submissive, rather than as a homesexual activity.

Also, "most straight guys" in your circles may feel this way but that is not even close to being all encompassing of all straight males, or those that primarily identify as straight.

Nor do all woman feel the need to "break out of their rl mold" of being a cock sock because they don't accept that role.

With this statement you have wholly stepped out of the role of bad rp and into the realm of sexuality, kink and gender roles.

It is socially unacceptable IRL to have a girl who is dominant and a girl who wants her man to scream for her in bed, thusly... again, back to the outlet thing. Got to get it out some how, right? lest she bind and gag her man and butt rape him mercilessly.

This is not only out and out stereotyping, but also again going with only what is in your circle and not that of everyone. Nor does lack of an outlet turn an otherwise law abiding, emotionally stable person into a rapist.

I seriously wonder about what world you live in as I rarely experience such attitudes as this and I'm a dominant, empowered woman who lives in the real world, acts as herself and doesn't take shit from anyone and I'm more often seen as wonderful for this rather than as a ball breaking bitch.

That said:

But then again... most heterosexual men cannot RP a girl, be she straight or Gay. This is simply a lack of knowledge in regards to how a girl thinks, acts and other weird girl things... like obsessing over your ass, or squealing over a cute outfit

This is the most stereotypical, pathetic statement of conjecture on the female mind I've ever seen and if you are a female, I'm ashamed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 10:12 pm UTC (link)
I, sadly have never met a submissive man before, and in the area of the United States I live in... Such lifestyles are hidden from the world, lest we get pilloried and set out to bake in the ridcule of an ass backwards Southern region of the US. I live in the great state of Tennesse, the Buckle of the Bible belt, in a tiny little town, where everything is a sin and everyone who is not of the dominant faith is going to hell. (last year? one of our counties tried to ban Homosexuals from living in the county. It was, thankfully, quickly squashed and pointed out to be unacceptable which I thought was very forward thinking of the state and federal big wigs.)

I live in a rural, close minded town where nothing about sex is EVER discussed, much less even thought about in polite circles. As for the generalizations, they are very, very typical of the area I live in, even though Atlanta is only two hours away from me driving distance.

This post was in no way saying that the whole of the world was the way I spoke about. But the immidiate 400-500 miles diameter around where I live is exactly that way. It upsets me and saddens me that we as a people are on the verge of colonizing the bloody moon and we have people like the ones I talked about running around spouting their crap and making people look or feel terrible about thier choices in the world.

I do hope that this has clarified things and that you are hopefully no longer offended by the not entirely clarified generalizations I made about the human condition.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2006-12-31 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sochan, 2006-12-31 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snapples_apples, 2006-12-31 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2007-01-01 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2007-01-01 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snapples_apples, 2006-12-31 11:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anunit, 2007-01-01 12:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kwanboa, 2007-01-01 04:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colubra, 2006-12-31 10:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2006-12-31 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colubra, 2006-12-31 10:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2006-12-31 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 10:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 10:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karra, 2006-12-31 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kwanboa, 2007-01-01 04:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lakidaa, 2007-01-01 07:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fidchell, 2006-12-31 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fidchell, 2006-12-31 10:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fidchell, 2006-12-31 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2006-12-31 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fidchell, 2006-12-31 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2007-01-01 12:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]straya, 2007-01-01 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lunarwhirl, 2007-01-01 01:35 am UTC

[info]sochan
2006-12-31 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Since this entire discussion has strayed from "why do people are-pee the stuff they are-pee" to "People shouldn't roleplay things they do not know/were born into/are supposed to because societal norms say so" I thought it would be appropriate to point out two things:

1) If 'women can't roleplay men in a convincing, giving, believable, plausible, whathaveyou way', then 'ordinary men can't roleplay super heroes convincingly' should also hold true. Basic logic, based on the above assumptions.

2) If people can't even begin to imagine what it is like to be a member of the opposite sex, Roddy Doyle would never have managed to write The Woman Who Walked Through Doors (and received such awesome amounts of applause for it). And he's only one author out of many who have written and continue to write about people of the opposite sex.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 11:34 pm UTC (link)
1. If one can set themselves into the proper mind set, anything can be accomplished but your typical joe shcmo southernguy off teh street cannot put their mind into the proper place unless they cared to break from what they've been taught their whole lives, which is an arduous task and rather tricky.

2. People Roddy Doyle are amazing exceptions to the Rule. Like the author who wrote 'Black like me" (sadly the wonderful man's name escapes me for this whole thing has sucked out my thinking power completely) These people are wonderful contributions to society and I thank the stars every day for the existance of them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]simply_ellie
2006-12-31 10:26 pm UTC (link)
Submissive =/= doormat

But then again... most heterosexual men cannot RP a girl, be she straight or Gay. This is simply a lack of knowledge in regards to how a girl thinks, acts and other weird girl things... like obsessing over your ass, or squealing over a cute outfit. Men are just not wired that way. Poor dears. They can try all day long but it is simply not in their nature.
So you're saying that the way ancient Greek plays, Shakespeare, Japanese Kabuki theater and so on is wrong? And however do male novelists ever incorporate female characters in their books, or the reverse? They're wrong too?

Part of the point of roleplaying is to play in a role that you don't normally assume in your real life. Sure, there can be elements of a character you also share in real life, but it's certainly boring to roleplay a character that's a carbon copy of yourself or your situation.

What you seem to be saying is that because you haven't seen it or experienced it, it doesn't exist and that is a very foolish assumption to make.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 10:40 pm UTC (link)
NO. No where in my post did I say it was WRONG or BAD. I was simply pointing out that most guys in the areas of the world that I am familiar with SUCK. Please and thank you.

Again I thought people would be smarter then this and NOT act like I had afronted their very existance with examples of normal behavior for my region.



(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]simply_ellie, 2006-12-31 10:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 11:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]simply_ellie, 2006-12-31 11:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:38 pm UTC

[info]colubra
2006-12-31 10:30 pm UTC (link)
...It's an interesting conjecture! However, I'm not sure about the conclusion that your gent seems to be making, which seems to be that because he can't quite imagine what makes a woman tick, nobody can imagine it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 10:41 pm UTC (link)
He never said it cannot be imagined, he simply said that he could not get it but that maybe this was why women liked RPing Gay men.

He STILL does not quite get it and I cannot explain it to him to make him understand. It is simply a case of. "I really cannot wrap my brain around it."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]colubra, 2006-12-31 10:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 10:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colubra, 2006-12-31 10:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 10:58 pm UTC

[info]oh_envy
2006-12-31 10:32 pm UTC (link)
How is this even remotely on topic for [info]bad_rpers_suck? Did I miss a memo somewhere, declaring this a "now, tell me how you really feel" day or something?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

*pulls out the leather couch*
[info]molotovcoqtiz
2006-12-31 10:34 pm UTC (link)
*insert bad Freud accent*

Tell me how you feel about people that ask how you feel.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

*sprawls on the leather couch -- in a feminine sort of way* - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 10:38 pm UTC
*nods and puffs away* - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:44 pm UTC
Mmmmmm, cigars - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 10:47 pm UTC
All you see is smoke - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 10:48 pm UTC
But you can get such a nice, firm grip on one - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 10:56 pm UTC
Funny, I just like the way it feels between my lips - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 11:01 pm UTC
What a coincidence, I like the way it feels between your lips too - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 11:14 pm UTC
What? I couldn't hear you all the way down here - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2006-12-31 11:23 pm UTC
Come closer and let me whisper it - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 11:27 pm UTC
<3 - [info]blitzers, 2007-01-01 12:54 am UTC

[info]wolfwonderess
2006-12-31 10:34 pm UTC (link)
I hear that reason a lot, the whole dominance and submission thing as being an outlet for women playing malexmale relationships. It makes sense to me, because that IS such a big thing, and it is true that society is still a bit...medieval in its thinking about female sexuality and gender roles. Same goes for male sexuality, which of course demands that the guy be hypersexual and dominant/macho.

Though I, personally, don't play into that view, as I personally loathe gender roles and the idea that a relationship has to be that...black and white. Or heck, forget relationships--I just don't like the idea that men have to be macho and women have to be submissive (and I'm not necessarily just talking about in the bedroom). I prefer a power balance, and I enjoy messing with conventional gender role stuff. As it is, I play a lot of strong, even dominant, females. Minus the strap-on. I'll admit I haven't really been able to play a more submissive girl, ever, because, well...it kind of bothers me; all my girls have backbones that they're not afraid to use. The most submissive and traditionally girly girl I play happens to be a cute little faerie who dresses in cute little dresses and...is a zombie and a masochist, if that's any indication. XD Ahem.

Same pretty much goes for my guys. They have backbones. There are no weepy ukes. I mean, I even have one guy in a heterosexual relationship with a girl that happens to be more forward than he is. So, he often gets jumped. He doesn't complain, he likes the view! Yet they overall have a very balanced relationship.

It doesn't mean they don't submit every now and then. I mean, everyone needs a change of pace, and while some people do prefer to dominate or be dominated (it goes into the whole personality type thing), it seems like it would get old after a while. I view malexmale relationships the same way--I hate the idea of seme/uke, someone who constantly tops and is dominant and someone who is constantly topped and dominated. It seems, well...boring and unrealistic, oversimplified, way too black and white. I prefer shades of gray. And hell...even if you go into the submissive characters, there is that whole "topping-from-the-bottom-you're-only-there-because-I-want-you-there!" dynamic. Just because a character submits, it also doesn't necessarily mean they're submissive.

To me, in a way...if women want to get away from the whole "submissive, bendy female!" stereotype, it might do well to play stronger females, to just give it a shot. You can play these characters without making them wear strap-ons and be all dominatrixy (unless you're into that! 8D In which case, huzzah!), or come across as whores and hussies and feminazis. Just give them good characterization and depth like a normal human and...there ya go!

And...that's my long-winded rant, if it makes ANY sense! XD

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Cookies for the smart, rational one. THANK YOU GOD.
[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 11:14 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for being professional in your answer and trying to be as clear as possible. It seems, because I generalized the human condition, that everyone is suddenly an over sensitive man/woman/teenager with a chip on their shoulder the size of Texas and a Bullhorn and a soap box and an entirely too loud opinion on someone's answer to a perfectly valid question as to why girls like RPing gay boys.

Take your quests and stick them on a forum page and try to change the world there oh high and mighty offended masses. This was not meant to be a flame war, or a let's get on our soap box about the moral high ground or the injustices of stereotypes. It was simply a single opinion on an obviously multi faceted issue in which everyone feels they are correct.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]saevard
2006-12-31 10:52 pm UTC (link)
As a lesbian, here's my opinion...

Some of my characters are homo females, some straight females, and I've played many straight men too. (Never played a homo guy, come to think of it.) That's just how characters are.

However, this has been a sore point with me for a while. "Playing gay". Some girls I knew used to do it as a way to make their cookie-cutter characters interesting. Hmmmmm, no character whatsoever? Them make a guy with, um, oh! An accent, yeah! Ok, accent, and a facial scar, and um, he's gay! It was like, a character couldn't be interesting on their own, but making them gay was an instant 5-star.

I'm an *actual* gay person. Homosexuality defines maybe...%15 of my life. There's my likes and dislikes, my values, my interests and hobbies, my job, my friends and family members. In total, I'm a character made interesting (well, I think I'm interesting anyway ^_^) by all the things that go into me, not just one thing.

Wow.../rant, sorry. Man, now my KFC is cold.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 11:18 pm UTC (link)
Simply playing gay to give a character depth is stupid, i totally agree with that.

I know several of gay/lesbian people and am on good terms with all of them so I can understand where you come from if not totally relate. I cannot totally relate because I am simply bisexual, so my understanding is obviously colored by my own views.

But this post was by no means a bashing or a Gospel taken, God given cross section of the world. But merely the cross section of the world that I can easily reach and grasp without overstepping myself and becoming a know it all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]saevard, 2006-12-31 11:34 pm UTC

[info]kokibi
2006-12-31 10:57 pm UTC (link)
*blinks*
Uh...I disagree.

Let's make it short.
1)Guy on bed. Tied up. Woman sitting on him. Looking down. Doing him.
She's obviously penetrated. That, obviously, doesn't make him dominant. Conclusion: Every straight girl has many ways of being dominant. That was just the most simple way on top of my head. So, uh, I don't see the problem.

2)Then there is the "dominant girls are socially unacceptable" thing, which makes me wonder if I am living on mars. German magazines for young women(20ish) often list "tying guy up" as a nifty surprise for him. Spanking him was suggested a while ago, too. Not sure if the whole socially unacceptable thing still works. It doesn't really seem to be true over here.

3)Alternately... I have to say I have never seen a straight guy do Yaoi. They just don't do it. - Can't agree. I know a few who did. Don't see the problem either. It's just characters.

4)And finally there's the whole "gay men are more female-like than normal men", which just makes me boggle. I surely don't know where that stereotype comes from. Real gay men don't really seem to fit to that paragraph of yours. I wonder why.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 11:23 pm UTC (link)
1. There is no problem with being an assertive female. never said there was, but society teaches us taht we are to be demure and totally pushovers, thankfully most of the femlae sex has told 'the man' to shove that stereotype.

2. Most of the world does not have issue with assertive girls, but the region in which I am living has serious issues with everything save for what the bible tells them. Which is damned sad and etirely frustrating.

3. I am sure such open minded men exist, I have encountered ONE this whole time I have been on the internets. But that does not mean a damn thing. The interwebs is a HUGE place and the world in which things are done is ever expanding but on a whole, hetero guys avoid the buttsecks.

4. Gay men are simply more in touch with themselves, their feelings, etc, making them seem more feminine due to the strictures and 'perameters' that define femininity. That is to say that not all gay men are OMG!!FABULOUS! like Mr. Big gay al on southpark. I have met several rather manly gay men and I did not even know they were gay until they told me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)
One good flaming jackass comment deserves another. - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:57 pm UTC
Re: One good flaming jackass comment deserves another. - [info]karra, 2007-01-01 12:12 am UTC
Re: One good flaming jackass comment deserves another. - [info]_geist_, 2007-01-01 06:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karra, 2006-12-31 11:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aristoboule, 2007-01-01 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karra, 2007-01-01 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kokibi, 2007-01-01 12:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]molotovcoqtiz, 2007-01-01 12:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fucklorist, 2007-01-01 01:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cerridwene, 2007-01-01 10:34 am UTC

[info]master_simon
2006-12-31 11:03 pm UTC (link)
I... am completely stunned by this post, and the assumptions you make about the abilities and imaginations of others.

If a straight girl wants to reverse the role that she plays in real life (I.E. taking all the time) and be the dominant partner, with a guy, then she has two choices in RP.

A) She can play a dominant female... with a strap on or. B) a homosexual male.
No. There are an infinite variety of roles a woman can choose to play. They are limited only by her imagination and comfort levels. Women do not need strap-ons to be dominant, nor any other kind of penis-substitute. Dominance can be expressed any number of ways, and what people choose to consider symbolic of dominance or submission is extremely variable. You're coming at this with a lot of outmoded assumptions here:

1. That a straight "girl" is automatically the submissive partner in real life;

2. That "penis envy" really exists;

3. That everybody automatically considers the act of penetration to be an act of dominance;

4. That taking on a dominant role is a complete reversal of roles for a woman.

Alternately... I have to say I have never seen a straight guy do Yaoi. They just don't do it.
Yes, some do. The fact that you haven't personally seen something doesn't mean it's not there. Think of just how small the world would be if only the things you've personally witnessed actually existed.

This is simply a lack of knowledge in regards to how a girl thinks, acts and other weird girl things... like obsessing over your ass, or squealing over a cute outfit. Men are just not wired that way. Poor dears. They can try all day long but it is simply not in their nature.
... I'm going to have to leave this one unanswered because everything that wants to erupt from my mouth in response to those generalizations is profanity-laced.

I see from your responses to others that you feel perfectly justified in making these sweeping generalizations because this is what you've personally experienced in your own environment. This, to me, feels like a complete abdication of responsibility for your own post because you're, in essence, saying "it's not my opinion; it's my husband's!" and "these aren't my views, they're the views of the backwater region I live in!" And that means that you're claiming that the people who find the stereotypes in your post offensive are less mature than the person who -- knowing they'd probably piss people off -- put them up anyway and then refused to take responsibility for them. I am agog.

I hope by now you realize that you haven't clarified or helped this issue at all.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fucklorist
2006-12-31 11:11 pm UTC (link)
*applauds* *throws flowers*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]master_simon, 2007-01-01 02:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]oh_envy, 2006-12-31 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]master_simon, 2007-01-01 02:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]simply_ellie, 2007-01-01 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]master_simon, 2007-01-01 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hello_my_been, 2007-01-01 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]master_simon, 2007-01-01 02:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]del_the_psycho, 2007-01-01 02:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]master_simon, 2007-01-01 02:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lakidaa, 2007-01-01 04:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]uptothetask, 2007-01-01 06:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ssalamanderr, 2007-01-01 07:49 am UTC

[info]fucklorist
2006-12-31 11:10 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, but what are your thoughts on...

I can't do it. It's too easy.

I've never squealed over anything in my life and find my own ass to be largely uninteresting. Am I going to get my woman license revoked?

I do appreciate you informing me of the REAL reason girls like yaoi, though. All this time, I was under the impression that I just liked it because it was hot and the character dynamics of some yaoi pairings can be really interesting! Can you imagine that? Silly me.

I won't even get into the business with straight guys and prostrates or the incredibly stupid assumption that the penetrative partner is always completely and utterly dominant in every possible way.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 11:27 pm UTC (link)
No. If you look... I stated TWICE in BOLD LETTERS that it was simply an OPINION of a strange behavior that no one understands. It is NOT Gospel if it is an Opinion.

I am sure that there are other reasons for liking male/male relationships, but the question was not asking for every reason why, simply a single one.

The offense was not meant but if you are immature enough to take offense then perhaps you are not as big as you tout to be. So sorry next subject please.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fucklorist, 2007-01-01 12:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fucklorist, 2007-01-01 12:56 am UTC

[info]marimac
2006-12-31 11:19 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I'm betting Mattybee's wishing he never asked his question and opened up all these cans of worms. lol.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2006-12-31 11:25 pm UTC (link)
I am too All I wanted was to answer his question with a 'Maybe it is this way' answer. Not have all these offended people use my post as a soap box for thir views.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yoritomo_reiko, 2006-12-31 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2006-12-31 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yoritomo_reiko, 2007-01-01 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marimac, 2007-01-01 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 01:34 am UTC

[info]dr_cockyman
2006-12-31 11:30 pm UTC (link)
...I wonder if you realize that most transexual men are straight. ... That's... really where I'm going to stop before I get long winded.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dieinahole
2007-01-01 12:23 am UTC (link)
I cannot pass any knowledge of transexual men because I have never met any, so It would be stupid of me to say a thing about them, seeing as I've never been exposed to it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fujinsama
2006-12-31 11:30 pm UTC (link)
As I told him, for me it's mostly the fact that girls that play girls are seemingly... unstable. Now, before anyone says anything, I am a bisexual girl leaning heavily on the lesbian side. I prefer to RP males, because in my fandom the male characters have more back story to them and aren't just names. I do play a few females, and if they have het relationships in canon I keep them in it, and if they don't I prefer not to ship them. Boys I've played both het and gay and I have learned one thing about the girls in my fandom: THEY ARE BLEEDING INSANE. I've met and played against some good female rpers that played girls, but unfortunately most that I have played against, or that even friends have played against, are the needy clingy types that need the boy there ALWAYS, that get jealous if you log with someone else, that turn up the angst just so the boy will "save" her, that stalk the character, and sometimes stalk the characters. I can't and don't really want to deal with this. The other girls that play boys generally... don't do this.

I don't know if it's a widespread curse or if it's simply my fandom that's infected this way. But I know a lot of girls that refuse to play straight boys now because they've been such a sue-magnet in the past.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]snapples_apples
2006-12-31 11:38 pm UTC (link)
It sounds as if you are playing with a lot of people who lean to the Mary Sue side of rp - even with a canon character, they use the character as their own avatar in the game. this leads to out of character behavior, over-attachment to the pup, and a tendency to blur the in character/out of character lines. It's no longer about telling a story with a character, it's about personal wish fulfillment.

This is not, I should note, good rp.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]fucklorist, 2006-12-31 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:27 am UTC

[info]bishie_beastboy
2006-12-31 11:34 pm UTC (link)
Reading other comments, I'd like to point out that nowhere in the original post do you state that these are the general views evinced in your area of the world or anything similar; the way the post is written implies that this is your opion on universal gender roles and so on. This means that defaulting to "oh that's just the way it is around here lawl" as a defence of your statements is invalid. Edit the post or defend your words properly, please. You can't say "it's just the way they're wired" and not have it mean what means.

As for the post itself, well, less ellipsis use would be nice, seeing as you're not trying to replicate dialogue (I hope). Speaking as a girl, I think I can count the number of times I've worn nail polish on one hand, and as for squealing over cute clothes, ha! No, sorry. I have gotten very vocal about new consoles or games or guns or swords, but seriously, I don't think it's something men can't understand.

Speaking as a girl who role plays, not only on the internet, I've mostly played straight girls and guys. The pup who's account I'm posting with is my first non-straight pup, and he's uh, well. He's an odd bean, shall we say. I haven't heard anyone telling me "You're doing it wrong!" with any of my characters, ever, whether for pen and paper or internet, whether male or female. My very straight bf has played straight female characters with no problems, in fact rather well, as have many of the male RPers I know. I just see no evidence for there to be an impossibility of understanding the other gender, here.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]uptothetask
2007-01-01 12:33 am UTC (link)
Seconding the "nail polish and clothes? ahahaha no" business. But then, the fact that all my pups are quite non-effeminate males (though been is a mystery) has...*probably* revealed my horrible sekrit of not being the girliest girl there is. X3

but seriously, I don't think it's something men can't understand.

Absolutely. This "omg women r mysterious and men cannot possibly understand their minds" bullshit needs to stop--and I'm honestly not sure if it annoys me more when I hear it from men or other women. Sure I guess there's gender differences, but they AREN'T THAT BIG A DEAL. People play it up like a huge thing, I don't know if they get off on it or what, but it's stupid. Sure, stereotypes of EEEEE CLOTHES on the one hand and FOOTBALL BEER HURR on the other exist in real life, but for the most part we're just people.

I'm tired and incoherent, but I had to babble or I would asprode. :3

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dieinahole, 2007-01-01 12:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]uptothetask, 2007-01-01 12:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bishie_beastboy, 2007-01-01 12:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hello_my_been, 2007-01-01 12:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bishie_beastboy, 2007-01-01 12:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yoritomo_reiko, 2007-01-01 01:13 am UTC

[info]sexytime_borat
2007-01-01 12:58 am UTC (link)
You are from Uzbekhistan?

...

ASSHOLE UZBEKHISTAN!!!

Exporting yaoiberries is not good as phosphorous from Kazakhstan!

No one make wedding sack for you, pull pony cart for glorious transportation of Tennessestan!

(Reply to this)


[info]paperclipchains
2007-01-01 01:14 am UTC (link)
Or we could NOT pigeonhole ourselves and try to move away from the idea that "taking," as you put it, automatically puts you in a submissive position..

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]stolisomancer
2007-01-01 06:37 am UTC (link)
I will happily and freely admit here that I never quite understood that view of sexuality. Dominance and submission aren't an axiomatic part of a sexual relationship.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]paperclipchains, 2007-01-01 07:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]flyingwild, 2007-01-03 04:24 am UTC

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