Lovable droll geek. ([info]onlyonechoice) wrote in [info]bad_rpers_suck,
@ 2004-01-28 16:54:00
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Current mood: calm
Current music:Weird Al - All About the Pentiums

No telepaths about? Then why should we care what you're thinking?
I'm of the mind that if you're playing on a chat/MU*, you should only post what your character says and does, not what they're thinking while they see it. In chat-RP, internal monologues serve only two purposes, IMO:

1. It's a cheap way to get the character attention or sympathy without actually having to worry about that pesky ROLEPLAY. I have seen countless instances when characters have either been influenced by or try to influence people through the use of internal monologues.

Characters who sit alone and sigh, making no attempt at interaction, are mostly ignored, as they would be IRL because people assume they want to be alone or that they may be waiting for someone. But put something like, "*sighs, feeling the loneliness that has weighed on her for months without an end in sight...even this place of peace offers no succor*" on the screen and suddenly two characters are coming over to say hello. What's the difference between the former and the latter in the eyes of the CHARACTERS? Absolutely nothing, but the internal monologue presented by the PLAYER makes the difference. It's the mental equivalent of, "*stumbles in, covered in blood*", and it's just as cheesy.

2. It's a poor attempt to justify a character's actions/opinions that appear inappropriate or inflammatory.

That's the thing - IRL people only see how things -appear- until they're explained outwardly. The characters' responses to situations should be influenced by how things APPEAR, not by a mental exposition of what's going on inside the character's mind. Writers are told to "show, not tell" when writing, to better draw the reader into the story. Internal monologues are doing just the opposite, they're telling, not showing.

Along the same line, internal monologues eliminate completely the possibility for IC misunderstandings for all but the most steadfast of players. There is so much possibility for conflict and good RP to be found through misunderstandings and miscommunication, but when any action is followed by an internal monologue to justify it, those roleplaying possibilities are squelched.

For example: A character has just lost a dear friend and is inconsolable. Someone is attempting to comfort them, while others watch and sympathize. The character asks tearfully, "Will the hurting ever stop? How can I ever smile again without him?"

Of the following two responses from one of the observers, which would cause more roleplaying possibilities?

Jonathan> *snorts a soft laugh, shaking his head*

Or

Jonathan> *snorts a soft laugh and shakes his head, remembering how, after the loss of his beloved Anya, his Pooka friend Matthew had played prank after prank until he learned to laugh again*

The former would likely rouse everyone's ire and the character would be reproached or perhaps attacked for his APPARENT lack of caring. The latter would likely be ignored, as the players understood that there was no ACTUAL malice behind the out-of-place laughter. No need to roleplay any misunderstanding or miscommunication. As the meaning was clear to the -players-, it's not necessary to put the characters through that hassle.

Apparent vs. Actual, Appearance vs. Reality...it's the very stuff of roleplaying. Internal monologues, no matter how we players try to have our characters react realistically, will almost always influence how we play our characters' reactions.

I tested this quite successfully in one of the chat rooms that was a "border" room (ie, the chat room bordered the local Werewolf Caern but was outside the bawn). I thought it would be an interesting idea to play a Kinfolk wildlife photographer who sat in a tree blind and photographed all the lions and tigers and bears in the woods for eventual publication (because we all know that Simba, Khan and Gurahl are all buddies with the local American Garou). No sooner had I posted: "*writes in her journal: Day One - heard some odd animal calls today, but no sightings as yet*" (this was my own blunder - see below), a wandering Khan in Feline form had spotted her, climbed the tree and destroyed the blind, causing her to fall to her death. Funny, considering that hadn't said a damned thing, but the character knew within seconds of my post where she was, what tree she was in and exactly what kind of danger she may have posed to the Veil.

The worst (and I made this mistake above) is when the characters don't say anything at all, but the players aren't satisfied to leave it at that and narrate their character's silent thoughts, or in some cases, their stupidity. I've seen, on a few occasions, a player narrate a character's one-word responses just to illustrated how stupid the character is: "*an intelligent person would have understood the underlying threat to the Eshu's words, but since she is not intelligent in the least, just nods confusedly, her standard response to anything other than direct questions.*"

The above example falls under both categories of internal monologues: The player is showing both that she is far more intelligent than the character (and thus her character is worth more IC attention than the stupid brute would otherwise get), and showing that the character's nod is not acquiescence, but a response out of puzzlement, so no harm will befall her for not acknowledging the threat.

"What are we supposed to do, then?" you may ask. Easy - post what your character says and does, NOT what s/he thinks. Sure, it may lead to some misunderstandings, but that's what roleplaying is all about. Nobody is able to make himself perfectly clear all the time, so how in the world can we expect the same of our characters?

So yeah, those are my thoughts regarding the previous post about putting IC thoughts into their character posts. I figured it was a bit long for a comment, and I apologize if it's too repetitious.

This also isn't mean to apply to journal/message-board RP's - that's more of the collaborative writing exercises that another poster mentioned, and isn't the same thing.

tanya




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[info]moonlight69
2004-01-28 03:41 pm UTC (link)
This also isn't mean to apply to journal/message-board RP's

So what RP's does it apply to? Just curious, as most of my RPing is done through AIM, but the RPGs are journal-based.

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[info]rann
2004-01-28 06:36 pm UTC (link)
I think she was applying it to mucks... where I don't think it should apply either.

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where this applies...
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-28 07:12 pm UTC (link)
This applies to live RP, meaning taking place in a chat or through IM's or a MU*

Journals/message board-based RP may disregard this rant.

t

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[info]zinthos
2004-01-28 03:50 pm UTC (link)
I like and agree with most of what you said, but I think there should be an exception to that--humorous and/or mute characters. I used to play a toaster (yes, a toaster) that was highly intelligent but couldn't say much besides the odd "..." To compensate for this, I had him running a dry commentary via internal monologue. Since he was intended to be a humorous character anyway, the other players chuckled over what he said OOC but then didn't let it crossover into IC (unless it was for comedic purposes, i.e. "I swear, that toaster is /staring/ at me.")

That may just be because my RPing group is very mature and generally uses chat-RPs for silliness anyway, though. :D

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Exception
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-28 06:42 pm UTC (link)
Humor is an exception to the rule, so long as, as in your example, it doesn't bleed too heavily into IC play.

Mute characters...that's a tough one, only because playing a mute character that doesn't have -some- way of communicating verbally in a text-based game seems a bit unsuitable for such a game. IMO only, of course.

But using my argument, I'd still have to say that using internal monologues for such a character would still be kind of cheesy.

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[info]coaldustcanary
2004-01-28 03:58 pm UTC (link)
I tested this quite successfully in one of the chat rooms that was a "border" room (ie, the chat room bordered the local Werewolf Caern but was outside the bawn). I thought it would be an interesting idea to play a Kinfolk wildlife photographer who sat in a tree blind and photographed all the lions and tigers and bears in the woods for eventual publication (because we all know that Simba, Khan and Gurahl are all buddies with the local American Garou). No sooner had I posted: "*writes in her journal: Day One - heard some odd animal calls today, but no sightings as yet*" (this was my own blunder - see below), a wandering Khan in Feline form had spotted her, climbed the tree and destroyed the blind, causing her to fall to her death. Funny, considering that hadn't said a damned thing, but the character knew within seconds of my post where she was, what tree she was in and exactly what kind of danger she may have posed to the Veil.

*snickers* I think I remember that happening. White Wolf Chats? Woods room?

The White Wolf HTML chats are just full of creamy, twinky-fluffy goodness. *chuckles* You just have to expect that kind of thing, particularly there. 90% of the chat's population would count as Bad RPers who Suck, because they don't know the difference.

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[info]celtic_tiger
2004-01-28 07:57 pm UTC (link)
Oh my god, White Wolf chat. There's a gold mine for this group if I ever saw one. I played on that chat for a total of four or so years, and it was only sheer ox headed stubborness that kept me there that long. *shudders*

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[info]star_sign
2004-01-28 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Or, in my case, a vain hope that by Roleplaying By Example would have some sort of positive effect on the 'quality' -- or noted lack thereof. More foolish mortal me.

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Amen.
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-29 06:33 am UTC (link)
Soooo with you re: RPing by example...doesn't work to improve overall quality, but it tends to attract players who are looking for the same caliber of RP.

I still think there's fun to be had there, though, if you look hard enough.

t

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[info]rann
2004-01-28 05:49 pm UTC (link)
No telepaths about? Then why should we care what you're thinking?

Well, there's this little thing called "role playing"...
You're entitled to your opinion, or not to like it when people put a little bit more into their poses, but I've found that the RPers who just pose exactly what they're saying and doing and go "Who cares about anything else?" tend to, well, suck. I don't like people that take two paragraphs to take a sip of tea, either, but just injecting some of the thought and meaning behind your actions makes you a better RPer, not a worse one.

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[info]troubleinchina
2004-01-28 06:27 pm UTC (link)
I can understand where you're coming from with that, but I disagree. Character thoughts and feelings can be expressed verbally instead of being expressed as "thought bubbles". Or, the character can keep a journal of some sort where those feelings can be expressed.

When I was running a game with a strong web presence (the game was Live), I had one player who would often use the technique of having her character do something, and then post up her reasons for doing it in the same post. Other players would complain that this coloured how their characters would react, because they can't take away their knowledge of her reasoning. Whereas if she hadn't posted that up, but just let her character react, things would have played out slightly differently.

The case I'm thinking of, her character, D, was captured by a different character, M. D was staring at M in terror, her wide eyes watching the chain he was carrying. This would have been sufficient, but she added at the end. "I couldn't help thinking about the times G had hit me, beating my creativity into the ground...."

Something M would have no knowledge of, and rightly shouldn't have.

Whereas, if she had posted on her private forum the same thoughts, it wouldn't have been a problem, and would have continued her character development.

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[info]rann
2004-01-28 06:31 pm UTC (link)
Other players would complain that this coloured how their characters would react, because they can't take away their knowledge of her reasoning.

Well, that would seem to be their lack of ability to RP, not hers. She shouldn't have to be responsible for others' inability to seperate IC and OOC knowledge.

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I disagree
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-28 06:57 pm UTC (link)
No matter how hard players try to separate IC and OOC knowledge, it colors how they initially perceive the post. The player could just as easily posted this (showing, not telling):

She recoiled at the sight of the chain, her gaze alternating between the swaying links and at the one who wielded them. Her breath quickened and her body trembled, and a thin sheen of sweat appeared on her brow.

The above still shows the fear, and perhaps other characters might wonder why she fears this chain so strongly, which will likely lead to more roleplaying as the characters try to get to the bottom of it. Again, posting the reason behind the fear negates that intrigue that a player might feel if s/he just saw what I typed instead of what the other player typed. A player shouldn't have to make notes on what s/he knows vs. what the character knows, it should all be part of the experience, -especially- in a long-running game.

t

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Re: I disagree
[info]rann
2004-01-28 07:01 pm UTC (link)
Again, posting the reason behind the fear negates that intrigue that a player might feel if s/he just saw what I typed instead of what the other player typed.

For you, maybe, but we're not all required to RP in a fashion that you find the most pleasing. This community's supposed to be griping about RPers that are actually BAD, not RPers that RP in a way you yourself personally dislike.

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*shrug*
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-28 07:10 pm UTC (link)
This, to me, is bad RP, so I ranted here about it. I think that a character's IC thoughts are his own unless you're writing a story about it. I think that internal monologues are a way to avoid the roleplaying that might have come to pass had players not known the reason for another character's words or actions.

I stand by it, but won't continue the debate if it's straying too far from the purpose of this board. It is a matter of opinion, after all.

t

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Re: *shrug*
[info]rika
2004-01-28 07:13 pm UTC (link)
And I wouldn't worry about it. Half the posts that are
made around here, are petty gripes about what pisses
the poster off, not what's actually good or bad RP.
So your post is no worse then everyone else's. ;)

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Re: *shrug*
[info]spooke
2005-05-26 01:13 am UTC (link)
I've had a player who constantly used thoughts to snipe at other characters while smiling and being reasonable on the surface. It pissed off the players, who couldn't respond in kind because their character didn't know about it. It's unfair to expect them to take abuse they can't respond to - just as it was unfair for the Khan to magically know who you were and what you were doing because you wrote in a journal.

Needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly. Good stories require conflict - story conflict, not player conflict - and it's easiest to find and the most fun to deal with when it comes from not knowing the motives of others.

I had another player who didn't mentally assault the other players, but he'd post huge soliloquis that tied into what he said and did so neatly that it was impossible to respond to him before he was done; this left the other players (and NPCs) standing around gaping until he shut up/finished staring broodingly at the wall/whatever. I'm rather of the opinion that internal monologues exist purely for the purpose of ego-wank.

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[info]runarisu
2004-01-28 06:27 pm UTC (link)
I had some fun results with exposing the thoughs of a character. Usualy, I mostly do it when the train of though of the guy or gal is incredibly humourous, or add some OOC understanding to the situation.

But mostly for the humour.

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[info]meredy
2004-01-28 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Putting thoughts and feelings and such in a pose adds this thing called flavor to things. Look at any work of fiction(especially books). Notice that the author tends to do EXACTLY what you're saying shouldn't be done, and it certainly doesn't detract from your enjoyment of whatever book or story you're reading, does it? A good or even decent RPer can keep the OOC info given seperate from the IC, and react accordingly. If they can't, I sure as heck won't cater to their preferences. Flavor just enhances the scene, it shouldn't be some bone of contention, or make someone go "Oh, I won't RP with you because you seem to be looking for pity or think all our characters are psychic!". And if it does, good riddance to whoever goes off the handle like that. *I* sure wouldn't want to RP with them if they react like that. I'd much rather interact with the person who can do more than "Bob shakes his head and laughs." in a pose :P

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Flavor
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-28 07:07 pm UTC (link)
Reading a book is a -very- different medium, and doesn't apply to the point I'm making here. When you read a book, you're an observer, not someone actively participating in the telling of the story, and certainly not a character in that story that doesn't have those nifty thoughts to read so there's no conflict or mystery to things.

Keep in mind I can live with flavor. However, when I get bitched at in a RP scene because I -didn't- respond to the cues given in the internal monologue, or get bombarded with private messages saying, "Your character shouldn't be so mad! He doesn't mean it that way, as you can plainly see.", THAT'S what colors my attitude towards -any- internal monologue...is that player gonna be a jackass about it?

And as I said above, you can add the same flavor with actions instead of thoughts:

Jack's fingernails dug furrows under the arms of his chair as the smug Knight smirked at him. *Don't give in to him. Let the upstart have his say...he's digging his own grave anyway, or so he'll find out if I get him alone.*

That conveys a heavy attitude that the other character may not know about, and the same thing could be conveyed with actions.

Jack said nothing to the smug young Knight, but his jaw clenches momentarily and his knuckles grow a little too tight ont he arms of his chairs. Tension is in every line of his posture, yet he does nothing.

Same flavor, no thoughts broadcast at all. A good writer can add flavor without all the (IMO) unnecessary exposition.

t

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Re: Flavor
[info]meredy
2004-01-28 07:40 pm UTC (link)
Both ways of conveying an 'unspoken' action are equally valid, though. If someone complains because you didn't act on one however, that's a different story and I wholeheartedly agree that it shouldn't be tolerated. But a decent RPer isn't going to do flavor text and then expect you to know it when there's no way you SHOULD. So it boils down to whether someone knows how to RP, and whether they don't. Though I think it's somewhat snobbish to say you can 'tolerate' flavor text, since it implies you base RP ability on that and nothing else. I've met MANY RPers on various mediums that use flavor text and thoughts VERY well, don't act on OOC knowledge that others give when doing the same, and are well-spoken and interesting. I've also met just as many HORRIBLE RPers who don't use flavor text and thoughts at all. So it's all relative.

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Re: Flavor
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-28 07:47 pm UTC (link)
Though I think it's somewhat snobbish to say you can 'tolerate' flavor text, since it implies you base RP ability on that and nothing else.

I tolerate it in the freeform chat that I RP in because I can pick and choose who my character approaches. I tend not to approach characters played by people who post an entire paragraph of internal monologue to portray the meaning of their nod and smile. I tend not to approach characters who use internal monologues as if the characters should know them.

Does it limit my circle of RP? Yes, but as people have said, they'd likely rather not deal with me and my, "*arches a brow, with a wry twist to his lips that lends a drawl to his words* You don't say. Pray tell how, then, did you -ever- escape?" (it's just what the character says and does, but still has the flavor). Does it mean I might miss out on a good RPer or a great scene? Perhaps, but in a freeform game it's my choice to make.

It's all relative, yep. And I'll freely admit I'm a roleplaying snob when it comes to this aspect of it.

t

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We are the few, the proud, the elite! ;)
[info]spooke
2005-05-26 01:28 am UTC (link)
And here I thought it was a post on what pisses you off, not whether or not your POV is valid. I don't think you're being a snob, obviously - it'd be odd if I did, considering my last reply. *g* The good authors live by the very phrase you mentioned: "Show, don't tell." This is true of all entertainment. (Actually, in animation it's the Chaplin version: Show them you're going to do it, let them see you do it, show them you have done it... but two-dimensional visual media requires that extra bit of clarity.)

Imagine if you could hear a running monologue of the actors' thoughts in a movie or tv show. Yeah, THAT wouldn't be both annoying and boring (or remove at least half the plot, for that matter). Hell, imagine the horror of having to sit and watch them explain how they were feeling or why they were doing something for everything they did instead of seeing it. Acting is mostly physical - stance, delivery, expressiveness - note the lack of telepathy.

Now tell me RPing isn't acting.

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Re: Flavor
[info]amano_hyo
2004-01-28 09:13 pm UTC (link)
So the real gripe is when the players expect the characters to react as if they saw the motivating thoughts.

I find it easy to separate thoughts and actions. I have no problem with having my character react as if the thoughts of another character weren't posted.

Someone else: hello *thinks:I hate this guy*
my character: hiya, gimme a hug

The thoughts can lead to other people using character thoughts to their advantage. I've seen Mary Suish characters react based on the thoughts of my characters and still be completely wrong in their assumptions.

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Re: Flavor
[info]arcadiangames
2004-01-31 05:00 pm UTC (link)
Ih, I don't know about that. I think it's certainly a more SERIOUS gripe when folks expect my character to react to their character's thoughts.

However, if you're writing/posing/posting your character's thoughts, and my character is NOT supposed to react to those thoughts... then why bother typing them up? This is NOT "flavor," as it adds NOTHING to the scene except extra, "throwaway" words. If I-player have an OOC question about your character's motivation, I will contact you personally in some way, and you are free to explain, confirm or deny whatever it was. Otherwise I appreciate precise text - simple, concrete details in actions and dialogue.

I think also it has a lot to do with the expectations of the group you're in, as well. Most of the places I RP are places where if you include it in your pose, it's IC. Therefore it's horrifically bad form to include OOC information (such as thoughts) in a pose.

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Re: Flavor
[info]rika
2004-01-31 08:27 pm UTC (link)
Technically though, when you go down that road, the same can be
said of just about *anything*.

Why should you bother being descriptive at all? Take the 'example'
pose the thread starter used further down:

His brow furrows and he tilts his head, almost puppylike in his curiosity.

Does not that contain extra, throwaway words as well, that don't truly
contribute anything to the scene except arguable flavor? By that
logic, the pose should look like:

His brow furrows and his head tilts.

Sticks only to what's neccesary to convey the action. But it sure as
hell is boring to look at, ain't it. RP should, at least by my account,
be fun and entertaining and involved, not an interactive ZORK game.


'unneccesary' exposition is always the meat of good writing. It
makes things *interesting* to read over, more colorful, flavorful,
be it a novel, or a poem, or roleplay. While I suppose one's entitled
to prefer such a bland, term paperish RP, I for one have no luck in
trying to understand such a preference.

The 'trick', of course, always being moderation. Where to draw the
line, where you should shut your damn yap and put your thesauras
away, and where the lines are between context-expanding and visualization
assissting, and forcefully adding information noone should even have
a chance in hell of inferring in any way whatsoever.

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Re: Flavor
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-02-02 06:15 am UTC (link)
Technically though, when you go down that road, the same can be said of just about *anything*...Why should you bother being descriptive at all?

Because there's a difference between being descriptive (posting what can be -seen-) and unnecessary exposition (posting what -can't- be seen).

The puppylike curiosity in my example below can easily be seen in a character's expression, and none of it deals with what the character is thinking. It's keeping in mind that people are looking AT the character rather than looking INTO him.

As I've said before, flavor is important, but flavor that only your character and the players reading can see just isn't adding much to the interactive part of the roleplay, and as another player said, it takes a lot of the mystery out of a character if everyone knows what he's thinking or feeling.

t

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[info]rika
2004-01-28 06:58 pm UTC (link)
A LARGE part of the problem in this case, is how one goes about
doing it.

In some cases, I agree with the thread starter, because the people
doing it, are doing it OBNOXIOUSLY, and making JACKASSES out of
themselves. That's the 'my RP should look like a flowery fanfic
I'm writing, and that's all I care about' school of thought. In
practice, filling up one's RP with *CRAP* nobody cares about, that
has no relevance to the scene even in a contextual sense, and is
only there to beef up one's pose or wax poetic, does nothing
except wreck the quality of the RP you're doing, IMO. Few things
PISS ME OFF MORE in mu* RP, then some little fucktard who goes ON
and ON and ON about some CRAP that happened fifteen YEARS AGO in
his or her character's life, and has NO BEARING ON THE SCENE
WHATOSOEVER. I just want to THROTTLE these dimwits.

In others, adding a character's line of thought or such-like, can
add important context and flavor to said character's current actions,
and/or dramatic effect to the overall scene in progress, and in
those cases, it's a GREAT thing. IMO, to be *preferred* over
only posing your actions, which ends up looking dry by comparison.

So...yeah. Otherwise it's like the tired argument between consensual
and non-con RP. I hate non-con - I think the /attempt/ at realism,
ruins any ability to sculpt meaningful stories. Lots of people,
obviously, think that opinion is bullshit. ;) Once you weed out
the shit RPers - be they oneliners or prosejunkies - you're just
left with a matter of taste.

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[info]celtic_tiger
2004-01-28 08:03 pm UTC (link)
I think it's a thin line. When I play in PBEMs or message board rps, I tend to post thoughts if the other players have a chance of perceiving them. I try to go for a mix of internal and external stuff. For example, if a character is gaping in surprise, I might go into a little bit of why in her head. For example:

*Mistfeather gaped at the sight of Firesong and his bird.*
:That can't possibly be a firebird, can it?" she thought dazedly. :I had no idea they allowed themselves to be bonded.:

This is just a spur of the moment example, but I think it's an acceptable look into the character's thoughts because it's pretty damn obvious why Mistfeather is gaping anyway. Also, in that sort of rp you have to fill things out a little more, or it degenrates into "hi." ...."hi." pretty quick.

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[info]furikku
2004-01-28 08:53 pm UTC (link)
I'm inclined to agree with this post. I hear all the arguments about how OOC info is flavor, and how "If you're a GOOD gamer, you'd NEVER EVER let OOC info influence how you game," and I don't really think it's all that valid.

1) This is for chat-based games. While adding internal flavortext may be fun, I wouldn't consider it essential or even important to that particular style of gaming. If you want to concoct a lavish prose piece, try MB or PBeM games, where you've the time and opportunity to do so (with the benefit of spellcheck and proofreading!). The chat medium- at least the MU* one- really doesn't seem all that great in terms of encouraging a literary piece- it's too fast-paced.
(I'm also wondering if the flavortext proponents would support me giving my character's internal monologue during a tabletop or LARP game for the same reasons.)

2) Even the best RPer will probably unconsciously metagame to some extent if presented with OOC information. It's simply human nature. This is why, in all of the TT games I've played, a player is taken aside or handed folded notes if her character is doing/sensing something that the other characters aren't. It's not that the GM doesn't TRUST us, it's just that s/he understands the tendency to forget that, while a PLAYER knows something, a CHARACTER might not.

In addition to these points, internal monologue isn't great in chat because it really doesn't give the other players much to respond to UNLESS they metagame- they don't know what's going on. You may as well write flavor text about your character in Tunisia (New York, if the game is set in Tunisia) for all of the good it's doing the other players. And really, isn't interaction what the whole basis of RPing is supposed to be?

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(Anonymous)
2004-01-29 02:43 am UTC (link)
GOOD rant.

And yes, it's an *opinionated* rant, like most rants are - and it looks like it has as many supporters as detractors, at least. ;) All my -favourite- threads on this board are those where opinions differ! Debate is good.

I reckon that, for public chatroom/MU* based RPing, internal monologues are unnecessary. The emphasis of the RPing is social interaction between characters, so as a previous poster said: where do your internal thoughts have any bearing on the RP? It *isn't* a novel. It's an instantaneous experience, just like a real conversation, not something you're going to archive and re-read fondly years from now.

ALL the internal monologues I have seen in chatrooms and MU*s have been at best a distraction and at worst the kind of pathetic attention-pleas or snide attacks that Tanya was posting about.

Even IF the RPer making the monologue is a great player, you can almost guarantee that *one* other player reading it is an idiot who will "magically" realise what the person is thinking and respond accordingly. Since you don't have -control- over who is reading your internal monologue... maybe you should leave it at home?

And that's the "good" monologues.

The -joy- of chatroom/MU* RPing (for me) is interacting with a cast of other characters, as though in a real social situation. I -like- immersing myself in my character, trying to see through their eyes and think with their mind (and all its quirks and hang-ups). Sure, I can read an "internal" post and keep that knowledge OOC. But whereas before my immersion in my character was very real:

"She just smiled... despite the sword in Alburn's hand... now, WHY?"

Once I have read *she smiled because she knew the blade could do her no harm*, my connection to my own character is suddenly abstract:

"Oh, so she's immune to harm. Okay, but of course Alburn doesn't know that so I'd better make him look puzzled."

Myself, I'd prefer to *BE* puzzled - and have my character react likewise. Much more fun.

*shrug* YMMV.

Matt

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[info]mailechan
2004-01-29 09:21 am UTC (link)
This makes me curious. I've only played a little in RP's online, so please forgive my ignorance.

What is the line between thought and description? Would you consider adjectives to be also unnecessary? For example, I play a boy who is supposed to have a very expressive face. Would it be too much to describe the curiosity or incredulity that he shows? And how does one not put too much in?

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Re:
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-29 09:58 am UTC (link)
The way I would do it is describe what he looks like, and perhaps one or two descriptive words, just not -thoughts-.

(His brow furrows and he tilts his head, almost puppylike in his curiosity) What happened that would make her run out so quickly? I just went to the bathroom for a second!

No thoughts are mentioned, but the emotion and expressiveness of his face is shown through description and speech. There's no need for what's going on in his head, and there's still the 'added flavor' that other people have mentioned. Show, don't tell - the mantra that all writers are told, works in live chat RP as well.

Again, this is just my opinion.

t

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[info]mailechan
2004-01-29 11:12 am UTC (link)
Ah, I see now. Like one would read in a book.

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[info]spooke
2005-05-26 01:39 am UTC (link)
Exactly - no one sees what every character is thinking in books, either - just the main character, if any. This makes the thought-projection seem even more like ego-wanking: "Everyone will want to know how MY character felt about that trivial event!*" *writes a long internal monologue explaining why dust bunnies are amusing to said character*

*multiplied by every character in the game*

0_0;

I'd say the line is made here: If the other characters can't respond to it in some way, it's ego-wanking.

*assumption of main-character-ness - a good way to spot bad RPers

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Re:
[info]furikku
2004-01-29 10:30 am UTC (link)
Describing what the character's EXPRESSION is would be miles away from describing what he's THINKING. The argument isn't one against character expression, but against information other characters wouldn't be privy to. Unless another character happens to be BLIND, she's probably going to see your character's posture and expression.

As a matter of fact, I'd consider descriptions of a character's body language to be the mark of a person who's really in tune with her character.

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[info]star_sign
2004-01-29 11:06 am UTC (link)
Another problem that I see with posting thoughts is that it takes away from other players' chances to roleplay and solve the mysteries for themselves. I play an amnesiac whose past is unknown to him, and there wouldn't be much fun for the other players to figure out what he is if they knew simply from a pose that he can't remember because he doesn't actually have one.

IMHO, I give other players all the information they need to react to him through his physical description and outward actions. It's all teaser -- stuff to get other players intrigued enough to continue interacting with my character to discover what he's really about. After all, where's the impetus to interact with a character that you as the player already know everything about? Sure, your character won't know...but to most players, having your character solve a mystery that you as the player already know the answer to is more of a chore than roleplaying.

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EXACTLY!
[info]onlyonechoice
2004-01-29 12:50 pm UTC (link)
One of the worst "offenders" that I played with tended to make his internal monologues so leading and revealing that there was no need to ever really talk to the character. Where's the fun in that roleplay??

t

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[info]whatifoundthere
2004-02-01 09:44 pm UTC (link)

I don't check this group too often, so I'm sorry if this reply is a bit late.

On the MUSHes I play, they call this 'metaposing', and according to some MUSHers it's a mortal sin. I have certainly seen bad examples of it -- metaposed insults are by far the worst, because they don't allow your PC a way to respond:

Theodore watches Susannah enter the bar, wondering how such a stupid woman with such lousy fashion sense could have gotten so far in life. "Hi, Susie!" he says.

That said, however, I do think that the occasional metapose can be very beautiful and literary. I've written quite a few metaposes in my day that no doubt would drive you batshit.

I see you play a lot of Changeling. In very magically charged scenes, I think one is within one's rights to metapose, because the characters have entered a mythic reality. It's called the Dreaming for a reason, right? I was in a really phenomenal Chrysalis scene a few months ago where people were thought-posing all over the place -- but that was okay, because all the PC's were so delirious that their thoughts really were having an effect on the reality around them. I may not always be able to tell if a woman has been abused as a child just by looking at her, but when she's Chrysalizing into a sidhe, her painful childhood is going to flow out of her in very rich and visual ways.

The other example would be when characters know each other very well. If someone is with a person they've known for years, I happen to think it's appropriate for them to pose things like Matthew looks at the filthy kitchen table and rolls his eyes. Doesn't it just figure that Charlene didn't clean up after herself again. Shaking his head and preparing for the argument to come, he gets a dishrag.

I dunno, you may think it's out of line, but I think it's a perfectly legitimate way to RP.

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[info]emperor_boy
2004-02-08 06:54 pm UTC (link)
I don't know. As a novel-style roleplayer, I find that inner monologues have never interfered with my roleplay, or served as "cheating" because they were, in a sense, a way to create mood. They never caused anyone to come over and talk to them as if they were reading their thoughts, unless it was a character who... well, read thoughts.

And that's all I've really got to say. Like all things, inner monologues should be used in moderation.

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