We are secular homeschoolers gearing up to do a history co-op with our Christian friends. We will be using Sonlight 6. I'm looking for a list of books in the vein of Sonlight but not quite so religiously oriented. Or, a list telling me which Sonlight books are way over the top religious so I know which ones to skip.

Any ideas?

(crossposted)

Today, Tuesday, March 24, 2009, on the Tyra Banks show (4-5pm weekdays, on Fox 11), Steve Harvey, while doing an interview to promote his book, advocated depriving atheists of the right to reproduce and the right to be loved, by depriving male atheists of mates. He said that all women should ask a man whether or not he 'has a relationship with god'. He said that a woman should utterly reject any man that is an atheist. Some of his exact words were that atheists have "no moral barometer". Steve Harvey clearly knows that the percentage of males that are atheists is much higher than the percentage of females that are atheists.

In said interview, Steve also advocated chimp-like male behavior by a man in a relationship: He said that a man should be a possessive man, a sugar daddie, and a territorial fanatic (aka 'overprotective') that assaults anyone that crosses the woman. He said that a man that does not do all 3 of those does not love the woman. He also advocated the objectification of women, saying that they should make themselves look 'shiny'. Steve Harvey thus advocates just about every possible evil, all rolled into one. Steve Harvey's face is vulgar just like his ideals; his face looks as if it is 'bubbling outwards'. It is as if every evil were distilled into a thick liquid and molded into the form of the man that is Steve Harvey.

Steve Harvey is not the first to advocate the genocide of atheists by this method; I have heard others do so as well. It is not just theist fanatics that advocate genocide of atheists though; I have heard some fanatical strong-agnostic environmental-determinists argue the same, since their own temperament is not much different from that of the theist fanatics. So, what should we do about this? I say that we fight back against the attempted genocide by making as many offspring as possible (and of course providing them with the crops, land/housing, and other infrastructure that is necessary to support them), and networking our children with eachother so that they can easily find mates. The theist extremists already practice matchmaking networking; most of them meet their life partners at church. What churches do we have to use for matchmaking? The church of freethought? -I think there is only one or two of those in the whole country.

My father passed away last night, after a long illness (his passing was really a relief, at this point). This morning, we told my daughter (4.5 years) that he'd died. Previously, we'd said that he was very sick, and at some point soon his body would just stop working.

She went through the usual child responses: She wondered where he was now, if he was going to wake up, that kind of thing. And she took it quite well (he's been bedridden for months now, and not terribly coherent for a couple of years, so it's not like she was close enough to him to be too upset), and her little mind is coping more with the notion of "not being" than with losing her Grandpa.

What I'm not looking forward to, though, is the folks who will inevitably tell her that her Grandpa is "in a better place" or "can still see her" or whatever. My wife and I have tried to prep the people in our lives to avoid saying stuff like that, but sooner or later she'll hear it from someone. My mother isn't exactly religious, but she does believe in an afterlife. It's benign enough, I suppose, but I don't want to have to explain to my daughter that, no, Grandpa isn't having a party somewhere and, no, he's not coming back to watch her. Honestly, if you're still seeing the world in concrete terms, how immensely screwed up is that notion?

I know I will have to have that talk, because it's too pervasive a belief for us to escape it. Still. It's the last thing I want to be dealing with right now.

Just venting.

Background for you - I think most people here are Americans; I'm not, I'm British, so I'll just summarise the school set-up. My daughter goes to a Church of England school. The church doesn't get to set the admissions criteria, so we've not had to claim to be Christian or go to church to get her in, it's just our local school. Like all British state schools it is required to conduct a daily act of worship, being a church school it doesn't stint on this requirement, and obviously brings religion into other subjects.

So that's your background on why this child of two atheist parents is at a church school!

Anyway, she's been singing little Christian songs and talking about God recently. Husband and I aren't slow to tell her that this is not what we believe in, but neither are we going to mock or belittle others' beliefs (well, I'm not, can't guarantee he won't ...) She's obviously getting rather torn though. Today she decided that perhaps God used to be here a long time ago, and now he's not. Husband said he didn't believe he'd ever existed. But I see a little girl who is being told two different things by people she respects - her parents and her teachers - and is struggling to reconcile this.

I am going down a very straightforward route of 'that is what they/some people believe, I believe something different'. What are other people's thoughts? I feel like I'm treading a narrow line between allowing her to be sucked in by something I don't believe in, and putting her in a difficult position in her faith school.

I had conducted an anonymous poll in a group of self-described 'loners' (there were 46 respondents), which showed that about 70 percent of them are either atheist or agnostic.

A poll made by someone other than myself, in a group of so-called 'schizoid' people (an entrenched libellous term for non-social, non-expressive people), yielded percentages nearly the same as in my loner poll.

There is a personality trait classification system called the myers-briggs temperament indicator (mbti). The system is rather arbitrary, but nonetheless useful enough to have at least some meaning. An mbti personality type is indicated by a combination of 4 letters, with each letter representing a character trait. An mbti poll made by someone other than myself, in a mensa atheist group, showed that most of them are either 'intj' or 'intp'. The letters 'i', 'n', and 't', respectively stand for 'introverted', 'intuitive', and 'thinking'.

Of all of the mbti types, I myself most closely match the description of intj. I created a poll in a group for intjs (there were 84 respondents). About 80 percent of the respondents were atheist or agnostic, with 45 percent being atheist.

I'm looking for a good kids' book that explains the world's major religions. It should explain what the adherents to the religion believe and why, along with some basics. I guess it's kind of a "Cliff's Notes" on religion, simpler than those "Idiot's Guides," again for kids or teens.

Thanks.

Long story short: hubby and I aren't Christians (obviously) and aren't very keen on Christmas, but we aren't grinches, either. We're fine with sending cards and presents, but try to avoid the religious bits. And just as we don't intend on teaching the baby (just over a year) that Christmas is when god was born to a virgin, we also don't intend on telling him that a magical elf rides through the sky with magical reindeer to give him presents.


The obvious problem is family. My mother knows we're atheists, but has been all 'oh look it's Santa Claus, he's going to bring you presents!' to the baby, and I hate to rain on her parade, but sooner or later he's going to notice that grandma and mom are telling him different things.

My biodad, stepdad, and company do not know that we are atheists, and already have a habit of giving us religiously-themed items, but since they're far away, they're not quite as much of a problem right now, but still potential problems.


Advice?

(The situation has an additional wrinkle inasmuch as I was not in contact with my biodad for 17 yrs nor my stepdad for 20, so things are a little delicate)

Hey all. I've an issue I'd like to share in hopes of gaining a little perspective. I'll try to keep it short.
My 13 year old is studying the medieval world this year. This quarter they are starting units on the Muslim World. This evening he brought me a handout with details for an extra credit project on one side and sort of an outlined recommendation of what I can do with him at home as far as educational support.
This recommendation includes "The 5 Pillars of Islam are 5 duties that all Muslims must perform to show their submission to the will of God (Allah in Arabic). Examine the 5 pillars with your child and engage in routine discussions." Also there is a list of three books recommended in the 'read to learn more about it' section ... one of which is 'the koran intertpreted: a translation".
I should point out that there was no similar recommendations regarding chapters already covered this year regarding the Roman Pantheon, Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox.
So my concern ... and it's pretty severe ... is that this level of religious immersion is A) wholly unnecessary in a 7th grade basic medieval History class and B) The sheer level of detail in both the textbook and especially in the teacher's recommendation is absolutely disproportionate to the level of religious immersion relative to previously studied cultures.
So, like I said; I'm looking for a little perspective. I've studied both history and world religions most of my life (I'm in my very late 30's), So I understand that, in order to understand history, a certain amount of religious exposure is necessary. I'm fine with that. I'm basically of the mind, though, that it should be all or nothing ... equal time for every cultures weird belief system or none at all.
The disproportion here send a strong message to me that there might be an agenda ... either to place emphasis on Islam or as some odd apologetic attempt to re educate a perceived intolerance of Muslim people on the part of the teacher and, in all honesty, I find both of those possibilities wholly inappropriate for a 13 year old in public school.

As a child I grew up in a large Catholic family. Both my parents went to Catholic schools. Both my Grandfathers wanted to be priests. However, we did not go to church except for special occasions. At age 15, I became pregnant with my son, as mother believed a 15yr old girl didn't need any birth control since she shouldn't be sexually active until marriage. I had heard horror stories of girl's mothers whisking them across the border for abortions at as far along as 6 mo. They told me the traumatic and terrifying experiences that had changed their lives forever. I kept my pregnancy a secret for 5 mo. until I could physically hide it no more. When I finally told my mother, she decided that I should go stay at a convent, until the baby was born, and then put him up for adoption. (That was the experience my Grandmother had at 15yrs old, against her will.)
I told her I would be keeping the baby, and that was the end of the discussion. 

At the age of 16yrs old, my son was born and I chose not to baptize him. Everyday for the first year, my mother and Grandparents told me my baby would be going to Hell if I didn't baptize him.
He is nearly 10yrs old today and is a self-proclaimed atheist. As he grew older he grew more curious and he asked family members questions regarding the Bible and God. He even went to my Grandparents! In the end he decided it sounded ridiculous and wanted nothing of it. 
I chose not to baptize him to give him the opportunity to find a group, religion or community that suits him and his beliefs. Whereas, I was born into Catholicisim and personally don't want anything to do with it, nor do my 2 sisters, or any of my 5 cousins that were forced through Catholic school. 

(It was quite funny when he asked me one evening if he was Jewish since he didn't believe in God. lol)

My husband and I are reading the book "Parenting Beyond Belief" ... which we are finding invaluable if any of you have not read it.

The editor of that book, Dale McGowan, has a blog (parentingbeyondbelief.com, which is excellent, BTW) and on November 5th he wrote this entry about Barack Obama's atheist mother and Barack's secular upbringing. I just wanted to share it in case there are some who haven't seen it.

http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=1078

My daughter is in the 2nd grade.  Her class held a mock Presidential election and, naturally, the children started discussing politics.  Mostly they were just parroting the things their parents say.  One little boy started verbally attacking my daughter over her support for Obama.  He said Obama has a police record, wants to turn white people into slaves and doesn't believe in God.  He then told my daughter that she's going to hell.

The day after the election he once again attacked my daughter verbally.  This time he asked her if she believes in God.  She didn't want to say she didn't, so she hesitated.  He then accused her of not believing in God, which got gasps from the other children who are all Christian.  The teacher got involved and demanded to know whether or not my daughter had said that.  She said she hadn't.  The boy insisted that she had.  The teacher said to my daughter, "Do you believe in God or don't you?"  My daughter admitted that she doesn't.  I don't know what happened after that because at that point my daughter started crying.

I am very upset about this.  I need to handle this delicately because we are in a mostly Republican, mostly Christian area.  Also, the school I send her to isn't her designated school.  I choose to drive her to this school which is outside of our district because it's one of the better schools in our area.  I don't want her to get a bad name there.  Also, we chose her teacher this year.  She begged me to request this teacher at the end of the 1st grade because she'd heard such good things about her.  And to be honest, in most ways this teacher has been excellent.  I just don't feel that talking religion and politics in class is acceptable.

Here's an email I wrote to the teacher this evening.  I've yet to hear back from her:

Scarlet Ibis

To make matters worse, my mother, who is Christian-lite, told me that she thinks it's terrible that I've raised my daughter to be an atheist and that I never should have talked to her about my beliefs since I've set it up so that she'll always be at odds with society.  I'm feeling guilt right now.

Please share any insights or advice you might have regarding this matter.  I don't want my daughter to become an outcast over this.

I have two little girls who have never seen, smelt, felt, walked in, or jumped in autumn leaves.

Will you send them some?

If you want, I'll send you something back beachy.  If you want, I can also pay shipping via paypal.  Or if you want, you can just send them.  I hope to get some big bags to take my my girls' school so they cam all play with them at recess.  Isn't that a good idea?  

I miss the fall!

And to show that I'm doing good things to, today I joined the sea turtle conservancy here on the island.  Right now just data entry and autopsies, but later, we'll look for nests, incubate the eggs, and let them go after they hatch,.  Last year they let 10,000 paddle their way to teh sea from Texas alone!

If you want to, please send the leaves to:

Susan Swan
15110 Leeward Dr. #402
Corpus Christi, TX  78418

I'm looking for something that may not exist.

My 8-year-old step-daughter has recently become very interested in learning about "God and Jesus." She doesn't live with her father and me (we're both atheists). I'm not sure what she's being taught at her mom's house (I know they don't go to church, but they used to, and I think god and the bible are sometimes discussed in their house).

We have recently explained to her that just because she went to a church when she was younger that doesn't mean that she has to be that religion for her whole life. She had no idea that she had a choice in the matter, and she really doesn't understand much about different religions and beliefs. No one has ever really explained any of this to her. (She was also amazed to learn that some people don't have a religion. She didn't even think that was possible!)

She's a really smart and curious kid. I know that her questions about "God and Jesus" are her way of trying to figure this whole religion thing out. So here's my question:

Do any of you know of any books for kids that explain the basics of major world religions in a simple and non-denominational way? Something that could help her understand that different people have different religions, and that some people don't have a religion at all and that's OK too? She's getting to an age that she's going to start understanding that some people in her life are Christian, some are Catholic, some are Jewish, some are undecided, and some (like me and her Dad) are atheists, and that all of that is OK. And she loves to read, so a book at her level would be fantastic.

I don't even know where to start talking to her about this. There MUST be a book out there!

i am an atheist parent and i was intrigued by this community when i found it.  my daughter is 9 and i am raising her with my belief (lack of belief) system.  it is funny and interesting to have discussions with her because no one has tried to really indoctrinate her yet, so her thought process is very clear and clean and without the confused mess religion sometimes stirs into arguments to eliminate rationality.  she talks about jesus the same way she talks about harry potter.  she has, however, had a few troubles.  one particular incident involved a bunch of her friends naming to which religion they belonged.  when it came to her turn, she said that she was an atheist and did not believe in god.  i guess she caught some flack for it and came home to tell me about it.  this has happened a few times.  i don't want her to be alienated by her peers but, at the same time, i don't want her to be ashamed of her views.  i know that i do not usually readily offer the fact that i am an atheist unless i am asked outright or someone attempts to engage me in conversation that makes it obvious that person is assuming i am also a believer.  though i enjoy talking to theists about beliefs and faith (i find it very interesting and have taken many classes on different religions), usually it escalates into an indoctrination session or a violent verbal assault.  i don't want the same thing to happen to my daughter, so i have told her not to mention being an atheist unless she is asked directly.  when she was a lot younger, i thought that i would not talk to her about god at all or my beliefs, because i wanted her to come to her own decision.  i didn't want her to be forced into a way of thinking either way.  unfortunately, this is not an option, because it seems people are always right there attempting to shove religion down a child's throat.  i want her to know about various religious beliefs but i also want her to know that it is perfectly okay not to believe, which most theists forget to tell children when they are talking to them about the bible and heaven and hell.

what are some of your ways of dealing with that kind of dilemma with your children: the desire on the one hand to have them thrive within their peer groups, but also wanting them to feel free to express their viewpoints without reproach?  are these two things even possible?

From Atheist Nexus

The three of us were laying on my bed, looking at the ceiling and talking about the day. "Dad, I have to tell you a thing. Promise you won’t get mad," said Delaney (6), giving me the blinky doe eyes. "Promise?"

"Oh jeez, Laney, so dramatic," said Erin, pot-to-kettlishly.

"I plan to be furious," I said. "Out with it."

“Okay, fine. I…I kind of got into a God fight in the cafeteria yesterday.”

Continues...

Penny Arcade is obliquely related to our topic of discussion.

I challenge all of your children to a debate concerning the existence of God!!!

For those of you with kids of around 8 or 9 and under, may I suggest the following book? It's called "The Story of Everything" and is a really great book about how everything came from nothing, and the development of life, and evolution, and etc. It makes absolutely no concessions to "some people believe that Goddiddit." In fact the book makes no mention of any sort of deity at all, but is so engaging and entertaining that your kids will quite enjoy it. (And even if they don't, you just might.)

It's not "pushing" any particular point of view - it simply presents what science knows at the moment (and acknowledges one particular scientific controversy, in fact.)

And it is a really FANTASTIC pop-up book, incredibly well crafted - I was knocked out from almost the very second page, which only says "Bang!" If you get the book, you'll see what I mean. Other parts of the book are incredibly well done as well.

Here is a link: http://www.amazon.com/Story-Everything-until-Pop-up-Spreads/dp/0764159852/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215945336&sr=8-1