darkling_grrl ([info]darkling_grrl) wrote in [info]askthekinksters,
@ 2008-04-15 11:59:00
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Cross-Contamination risks?
Just wondering if anyone has any ideas about potential risks or cross-contamination issues that would arise from either piercing or suturing animal organs/flesh to a human? The organs/meat would be obtained from a butcher and be of human consumption quality, so logically the risk of transferring blood-borne contaminants like TB or BSE would be no greater than eating those things would carry, right?. I'm more concerned about causing infection within the piercing/suturing wounds... would this be likely? minimal risk? Any ideas?

My gut (no pun intended) feeling is that it would carry minimal risk of infection or contamination of any kind, particularly if everything is doused in chlorhexidine or iodine as usual, but I just wanted to gather other opinions or knowledge on this if possible.

Thanks :)


cross-posted to my LJ.

ETA: Please try to limit responses to fact-based contamination risk levels. I am not asking about the ethics of animal products.

UPDATE:

A friend of a friend is a meat inspector by trade, the response from him was:

Raw meat [beef, fish, chicken, etc] contains three sorts of micro-organisms you'd not be wanting to get into your system.

a. Food poisoning bacteria [E.coil, salmonella, Listeria]. These will give you the runs; vomiting, etc. In large amounts directly injected, they can kill at healthy adult.

b. Infection bugs [Golden Staph, streptococcus, etc]. These are the flesh eating bugs that cause gangrene, boils, etc

c. Bugs that cause flesh to rot [micrococcus, lactobacillus, etc]. In raw meat these will be there starting to break down the meat itself.

I cannot in any way recommend that raw meat should be put into contact with the interior of a human, except after safe preparation [such as cooking, etc] and only via the mouth.


So now we all know! And I'll be finding a different way to create the scene requested. Thanks everyone for your responses.


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[info]melebeth
2008-04-15 03:03 am UTC (link)
Um, there's a much bigger risk for this than eating the meat. Your gut is acidic and kills off a lot of potential bacteria that are much more easily spread if introduced directly into your blood. I'd be seriously worried about skin infection with stuff like this, as well as possible systemic infection.

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[info]darkling_grrl
2008-04-15 03:18 am UTC (link)
Thanks for your thoughts

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[info]br0ken_dolly
2008-04-15 03:12 am UTC (link)
i had a friend who used to work in a butcher shop... he told me all kinds of stories about when they'd get in a large animal, and it'd have enormous tumors or infections in it, they'd basically just butcher around the "bad" parts and cut the rest of it up as steaks/porkchops/wtf-ever-else and package it without a second thought.

it's pretty disgusting to me to think that people eat that stuff, but at least cooking destroys some of the disgusting contamination, and digestive juices kill most of the rest.

but to simply introduce those toxins into someone's bloodstream through something disguised as SSC play? oh hell no. that's all i have to say.

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[info]darkling_grrl
2008-04-16 05:33 am UTC (link)
Oh for heavens sake... I'm not a freakin' monster. I'm ASKING some questions... based on the request of an acquaintance who likes what she's seen of my piercing work on others and wanted to do a particular scene for a photoshoot wherein she resembled a half autopsied corpse and asked if I could suture animal bits to her.

When it comes to kink as art/performance, it's my experience that the best place to start is "If anything at all were possible, how would we do this" and then work backwards to something that is an acceptable risk and feasible to execute, and as long as that point is not so far removed from the original concept that it ceases to have any meaning then you have a winning project.

Obviously I was wrong and it IS necessary to explain absolutely every tiny detail of a creative process to prevent people leaping to wild conclusions about scary freaky dangerous and irresponsible players.

Just so YOU'RE reassured, you may note above that I've updated my post to indicate that I got professional advice and based on that am nixing the piercing/suturing flesh option. Which was the whole point of asking questions.

I'm SO glad we have such a non-judgemental place to do it.

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(no subject) - [info]boogarshadow, 2008-04-17 02:55 am UTC

[info]lilium_vitiate
2008-04-15 03:16 am UTC (link)
There is a MUCH larger risk than you seem to have realized. There is a reason we cook meat- it kills many of the bacteria that grow in raw, DEAD flesh to the point where our stomach acids can do the rest. Blood-borne pathogens, which is generally the first concern when piercing, aren't all of the bacteria present in raw meat. This isn't just a bacteria issue, either- it's also a parasite issue.

If you're suturing the meat to flesh, you also have to remember that tiny pieces of meat will be pushed into the flesh, which will cause white blood cells to attack and reject the tiny pieces.

If you were to surface pierce the area and let it HEAL completely, and then attatch the meat to that, you'd be much better off, aside from the risk of ripping the piercings depending on the weight of the meat.

Edited at 2008-04-15 03:29 am UTC

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[info]darkling_grrl
2008-04-15 03:31 am UTC (link)
Allowing surface piercings to heal completely with jewellry in is not feasible in the time frame, and doesn't work with the concept for the photoshoot we're planning... my initial response was to find a way to do it without needles going through her AND the dead flesh, so zero risk of contamination, but aesthetically the suturing is more desirable, hence my questions re levels of risk...

Thanks for your thoughts :)

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(no subject) - [info]melkitty, 2008-04-15 03:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-15 03:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]melkitty, 2008-04-15 05:36 am UTC
To Clarify -- - [info]anais_pf, 2008-04-15 05:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilium_vitiate, 2008-04-15 03:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-15 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]embarkation1977, 2008-04-15 03:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-15 03:49 am UTC

[info]dagibbs
2008-04-15 04:35 am UTC (link)
Contamination issues are big -- meat isn't safe.

Cooked meat won't work, I assume, for effect.

My understanding is that a lot of the issues are surface... which is why rare/blue steaks are (mostly) ok, but you don't want ground beef blue, since it is all surface. So, starting with a large chunk, cooking the outside (only), then self-cutting to get to inside that is just meat will much improve your risk level. (Large roast that isn't a "roll-together" would be the idea here.)

Even with the double-suturing some have suggested, there's still a good chance of contamination given the amount of fluids around.

But... reducing risks enough ways, and you might get down to acceptable.

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[info]franzi1981
2008-04-15 08:08 am UTC (link)
Errrrrrrr... we eat ground beef rare (not cooked at all) all the time in Germany. LIke, you get it sold like that already on bread with an onion on top and ready to go.

... I really really doubt the issue has to do with surface.

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(no subject) - [info]undomielregina, 2008-04-15 11:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]franzi1981, 2008-04-15 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maidenofmidian, 2008-04-15 02:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]franzi1981, 2008-04-15 02:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maidenofmidian, 2008-04-15 02:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]asknosecrets, 2008-04-15 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]franzi1981, 2008-04-15 06:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ser_kai, 2008-04-16 06:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]whobunkyboo, 2008-04-17 04:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ser_kai, 2008-04-17 06:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ser_kai, 2008-04-16 06:52 am UTC

[info]darkling_grrl
2008-04-16 05:29 am UTC (link)
Without getting into the whole raw ground beef/pork debate, thank you for your reply and suggestions... there doesn't seem to be a way to reduce the risks to within an acceptable scope so it's back to the drawing board but I appreciate your input :)

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[info]godchildren
2008-04-15 06:12 am UTC (link)
haha, WHAT
?????

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[info]barkdust
2008-04-15 10:20 am UTC (link)
x2

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[info]nefret
2008-04-15 12:42 pm UTC (link)
i hear that

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[info]skramamme
2008-04-15 08:39 am UTC (link)
There are some extremely experienced piercers and body modders on this site [info]bodymods.
I'm sure they'd be able to give you some information and/or advice.

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[info]greenberryblues
2008-04-15 01:06 pm UTC (link)
i don't have anything helpful to add, but i thought i would send you to this link since there is discussion (though i don't know how helpful) about it here.


http://modblog.bmezine.com/2007/02/24/a-profound-performance/

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[info]frippychick
2008-04-15 03:09 pm UTC (link)
I don't have anything helpful to add either, but I like your icon(s).

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[info]darkling_grrl
2008-04-16 05:31 am UTC (link)
thanks for that :)

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[info]nonseqmenagerie
2008-04-15 01:18 pm UTC (link)
For a photoshoot, I would check out some food stylist tricks, and see what they do to make food look good when it's photographed. I don't know what sort of look you're going for, but using actual raw meat might not have the same look when photographed that it does when you see it in person. Some of the tricks above (like the suture with two threads) can help, buying the meat frozen and keeping it that way throughout the shoot will help (make it hard to work with, but minimizes the growth of bacteria during the shoot), checking out sites like this, might let you get things that would work but have much less of a risk of contamination.

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(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-16 05:07 am UTC

[info]hotclaws
2008-04-15 04:36 pm UTC (link)
Risks are huge but sure, go ahead.

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[info]scary_being_me
2008-04-15 07:33 pm UTC (link)
If you're using the meat/organs raw; there's a MUCH higher chance of infection. Cooking kills of a host of bacteria, viruses, and parasites.

The digestive system is designed to handle what cooking doesn't kill (in most cases). By sewing it to someone; you're risking directly getting it into the bloodstream. The blood vessels in the skin are small; but they're plenty large enough to carry infection.

This just seems like a bad idea.

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[info]bothrops
2008-04-15 11:28 pm UTC (link)
If you are thinking of using organs, remember that E. coli O157 can destroy the digestive system of a healthy person. The thought of innoculating someone with the live bacteria..I prefer not to think about that.

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[info]bad_in_plaid
2008-04-15 11:32 pm UTC (link)
I asked my dad, the health inspector, who deals with food borne pathogens on a daily basis. He says this is a Very Bad Idea and there's risk of severe illness and in severe cases, death involved.

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(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-16 05:27 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-04-16 04:00 am UTC (link)
I have an alternate idea. You could put some strong tape on the meat, sticky-side-up (I'm thinking double-sided tape, because I remember it as being pretty strong and able to take a good amount of force... but definitely not scotch tape or packing tape or duct tape or any of that) and then thread the thread through the meat to tie it on. So the thread keeps the tape in approximately the same place, and the skin-tape bond keeps the tape in the same place even better (especially with thick thread, I would think).

Crappy little picture to try to illustrate what I mean a bit better: http://i28.tinypic.com/300vac3.gif (The red is the meat, the white strips are the tape, and the green is the thread.)

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-04-16 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-16 05:26 am UTC

[info]celyste
2008-04-16 04:52 am UTC (link)
Please remember that thread will act as a wick... any of the meat juices (and pathogens) are going to travel the thread and enter the person's body.

plastic thread would be better... but the surface is still going to carry into the body and give a path for the 'fluids' to enter the body too.

This is a very bad idea.

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(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-16 05:25 am UTC

[info]poison_parlour
2008-04-16 04:55 am UTC (link)
I can only shudder to think that you are even considering doing this to a living person. In no way is double suturing even an option as some have suggested. Contaminants spread; they are nasty little buggers and they will go 'ooh, thread! Let's see where it leads!'. The person you are doing this too will wind up very sick; with either blood poisoning or abscesses followed by blood poisoning.

Do you want that to happen to your partner?

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(no subject) - [info]darkling_grrl, 2008-04-16 05:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bothrops, 2008-04-16 12:55 pm UTC

[info]julian_wolf
2008-04-20 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Might be too late to help, but have you considered using stuff like prosciutto?

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