Lani ([info]oddsbobs) wrote in [info]amutualslurping,
@ 2006-08-27 14:58:00
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Current mood: annoyed

perhaps slightly off topic...but I'd like some opinions
I just read an R/S fic that had my soul dying in little pieces on the floor.  I need to check to see if I'm not going crazy, and this community seems full of enough grammar-whoreslovers to help me out. 

What I read brought up something that bugs me to no end, but I don't know if anyone else has seen this trend. It's the rise of a new group of writers in fandom I call the Over-Grammatics.

The Over-Grammatics try their hardest to be gramatically correct. Which is fine. Commas are our friends. Until they overdo it. For instance, the "I" vs. "me" issue. "Stephen and I walked to the store." "He wanted to visit Stephen and me." Both correct. However, since there are many people out there who incorrectly use too much "and me", the OGs take grammar to an extreme and think that anyone using me instead of I are wrong. They make such statements as "He wanted to visit Stephen and I" and (the most annoying recent example) "She was taller than I."  They take all of the common grammatical errors and flip them, then run with it, rules be damned.  People forget commas?  Then the OGs go into comma overload.

I don't understand how people can mess this up. Just substitute third person into the sentence. It usually makes it a lot easier to figure out. "She was taller than she" doesn't work. "She was taller than her" does. Therefore, "She was taller than me."

It really bugs me because the OGs are dead set on thinking they're correct and have a superiority complex concerning grammar. They can do no wrong. I believe I write well, but am open to concrit. I'm not an expert on grammar and I don't pretend to be. I'm not going crazy about this, am I? Am I wrong? I don't think so... but who knows.

All I know is that I would rather read a fic from an author who has slightly less than perfect grammar (not rotten grammar, though) and is open to concrit than one from an OG.


I simply worship the writers that are actually grammaticaly correct.

</rant>

EDIT: It was just pointed out to me that "She was taller than I" is actually correct (there was a long explanation for this...), but it was the first "than" sentence I could think up.  I couldn't relocate the story, and all I remember was that it was a "than" statement.  Most likely it was something along the lines of  "They liked her more than me." (Meaning they liked her more than they liked me, not they liked her more than I did, in which case it would be I.  Confusing stuff.)  Anyways, the point still stands, even though my examples were a tad off.

If this post is against the rules, just tell me and I'll delete it.  This was written in full-fledged rant mode, so there may be some grammar issues of my own ::blush::


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[info]hahahahowlucky
2006-08-27 07:59 pm UTC (link)
I'm not going to delete it, mostly because I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. I get twitchy and want to bludgeon people with my keyboard when I read someone who uses the whole I/Me thing incorrectly.
Of course, Shoeboxers have basically started the good grammar revolution, so we can oppose the OGs (cool term, by the by)

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[info]oddsbobs
2006-08-28 04:48 am UTC (link)
hehe I get twitchy when people use 'me' instead of 'I' because it's wrong, but I know they generally don't know better. I want to bludgeon when they use 'I' instead of 'me' because they think they know better.

You know, it's rather like the who/whom business. Of course, that's another story.

... that made sense in my head.

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[info]hahahahowlucky
2006-08-29 12:13 am UTC (link)
I'm awful at who/whom, so I'm not even going to begin on that.
I can use it correctly most of the time, but when I say it in conversation people tend to get angry at me because they think I'm trying to act intelligence.
It's the same thing with saying can or saying may. I've been saying may since I was little, and it's hardly fair for people to judge me by something that's pretty much innate by now (especially if it's correct, hem, hem)

That was entirely off topic, but I don't get to rant about grammar very often, so I figured I should get it out and see if anyone agrees.

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[info]cerridwen666
2006-08-27 08:22 pm UTC (link)
I've been accused of being a grammar nazi sometimes because I'm constantly asking people to type correctly and learn where the shift key is. I likely have high expectations even though I have made some rather horrendous mistakes.

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[info]oddsbobs
2006-08-28 04:29 am UTC (link)
I believe I'm the same way a lot... high expectations but possibly making mistakes of my own.

I think that it is perfectly acceptable. It's the superiority complex of the OGs that get me... high expectations and incapable of recognizing their own faults.

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[info]noneedofcrepe
2006-08-27 11:10 pm UTC (link)
I agree with what everyone's been saying. Most people make mistakes! I make mistakes all the time. Every day. Part of that has to be because I was never taught grammar or punctuation and simply picked up on it. But I'm a grammar-nazi -- what now.
I HATE OGs! I feel like shriveling up and dying whenever I read a fic of that sort. I mean, can they not spend TWO SECONDS finding out if they're RIGHT?? Ungh.

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[info]oddsbobs
2006-08-28 04:38 am UTC (link)
That's one of my biggest griefs with the school systems in America these days. We don't teach English (grammar and whatnot) anymore. Did you know that in the area I live in teachers aren't allowed to correct students' spelling (when they're first starting to write) because it damages their creativity? They are supposed to encourage the stretch spelling. That's fine, I used stretch spelling sometimes when I was little. But it was in combination with.. you know... rules. (Heaven forbid we have a right way and wrong way of doing something; it'll ruin their self-esteem to be incorrect) I think I picked up more grammar rules when studying a foreign language.

And of course they don't spend time finding out if they're right. They are right. They can't be wrong. No way. Impossible.

oops... I began ranting again...

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[info]noneedofcrepe
2006-08-28 10:19 am UTC (link)
I COMPLETELY agree!

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[info]orngsnapdragon
2006-08-27 11:59 pm UTC (link)
Hehe. I actually dislike grammar. I mean, I like having proper capitalization and puncuation in more or less the right place, but the whole I/me thing doesn't bug me. I don't think being a stickler for grammar is really needed for a high quality of writing to be maintained. :}

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[info]oddsbobs
2006-08-28 04:43 am UTC (link)
For me, it's not so much the aspect of correct/incorrect grammar that's bothersome. It's that the OG is bothered by it, but can't take the time to look it up or accept suggestions.

I dislike things written incorrectly simply because I try to write as well as I can. If I make a mistake, I want to know about it so I can fix it.

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[info]oddsbobs
2006-08-28 04:44 am UTC (link)
oh speaking of... thanks for the beta work! ::runs off to write more::

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[info]happi_feet
2006-08-28 07:38 pm UTC (link)
I proudly proclaim myself to be a grammar and spelling nazi (or maven, to use a more correct term), and I'm with you on the issue of OGs. They bug me to no end, probably as much as DJs on classical radio stations with their pretentiousness. Rather than learn the simple rules to remember what to use where, they simply substitute "I" and "whom" for every occurrence of "I/me" or "who/whom". It makes it hard to read because I have to mentally parse every sentence as I go rather than simply reading it. Bad spelling, unless it's simply atrocious, doesn't even bother me as much because my brain automatically substitutes the correct spelling, but bad grammar or (thanks for the term, Odds!) OG...

...Well, it's like driving down a badly rutted road with no shocks. Even if the country road view is pretty, if the drive is bad I'll just skip it.

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[info]oddsbobs
2006-08-28 07:50 pm UTC (link)
Oooh I really like that analogy.

And I totally agree that horrible grammar is a bit worse than spelling errors.

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[info]xmindthegapx
2006-08-28 10:10 pm UTC (link)
Just for the record: [info]oddsbobs has officially coined the term "OG." And it shall be pronounced like the phrase, "Oh, gee." Like as in, "Oh, gee... I didn't see you there. I'd be more than happy to pay for your ruined tie."

If this post is any indication of our community, I am looking forward to more fics. *gives members one big, happy group hug*

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[info]dymphna_gold
2006-08-30 04:29 pm UTC (link)
I just discovered this community, but I had to comment on this. THANK YOU. I feel exactly the same way about the "I"/"me" situation. And I give people the same advice you suggest. If "You'll be working with me" is correct, why on earth would anyone think that this would be changed by the introduction of a third person? Yet people will persist in saying things like "You'll be working with Margie and I." (I'm using a real example from a job interview. I got the job ONLY because I bit my tongue and didn't correct my prospective employer.) Anyway, thanks. I get frustrated at any number of common grammar mistakes (the constant misuse of "hopefully" is another example) but in my old age I'm mellowing a bit, I think. But this particular grammar mistake will never stop irking me.

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[info]oddsbobs
2006-08-31 06:01 am UTC (link)
"You'll be working with Margie and I."

That's the type of I/me situation that has me ripping my hair out the most (And it's coincidentally the most frequent mistake. I'm going bald over here). Just because you add a third person into the sentence doesn't mean the I/me gets changed. ::grumble::


Just out of curiousity- What misuse of "hopefully"?

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[info]orngsnapdragon
2006-09-01 04:51 am UTC (link)
Hopefully means full of hope, so when someone writes, "Hopefully the train will come soon." What they're saying, in the strictest sense of the matter is: "Full of hope, the train will come soon."

Not exactly what you thought you meant, right?

At least, I'm pretty sure that's what dymphna means. A journalist/mentor explained it to me, and I filed it away as vaguely important but mostly just another trivial, useless, and annoying rule to remember. If you say "Hopefully the train will come soon." Then I and everyone else should know you mean "I hope the train will come soon." so I don't see what the big deal is.

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[info]dymphna_gold
2006-09-02 07:12 pm UTC (link)
Yes, that's what I meant. Hopefully belongs in a sentence like this: "Will the train come soon?" the boy asked hopefully.

But you are correct -- at this point, almost everyone uses it in the "I hope" sense, which is why I am (somewhat) mellow(er) about that one now. Language *does* change, and before long "hopefully" will probably be listed in the dictionary with both meanings.

OTOH, it's hard to know where to draw the line. One could say the same thing about I/me -- everyone knows what the speaker means, so what's the big deal? I think that those of us who care about correct grammar are in the minority these days.

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[info]eloiselovelace
2006-10-02 10:10 am UTC (link)
This reminds me of one of the first R/S fics I ever read, which has still held on to the honor of being one of my favorite fics out there, period, after reading a great big lot of other fic.

This story is absolutely brilliant... but its Achilles heel is the "I" and "he" use even when it should be "me" and "him". It drove me so crazy that I saved a copy to my harddrive and *fixed it*, and then I was able to enjoy rereading my favorite story without cringing every now and then.

That's now my approach to other great fics which have occasional glaring grammar issues... but I'm too scared to actually notify the authors of my private-beta findings. :)

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