albuquerque: how to choose a school

abqrealtor (

abqrealtor) wrote in

albuquerque,
@ 2008-07-01 14:33:00

how to choose a school
If you were freshly moving to Albuquerque, and you knew that you wanted to choose your new home in a neighborhood with "good" schools, what techniques would you use to decide which schools were "good"?

What other features might you look for in a school? What kind of an interface would you like to use (map based? something else?)

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(Post a new comment)

	exile_27 2008-07-01 08:46 pm UTC (link)
	I'd say to look at test scores, but that always favors La Cueva, and I cannot in good faith recommend that school. Test scores relative to free/reduced lunch percentages would be a good indicator, as that shows qualified teachers in harder circumstances. There's this (http://schools.com/), but i'm not a big fan. I think a map interface with several filters would be good. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	exile_27 2008-07-01 08:49 pm UTC (link)
	sorry, this is the site I meant to link to (with a handy-dandy APS high school to start from!): http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/nm/district_profile/4/#finance (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	abqrealtor 2008-07-02 05:48 am UTC (link)
	Thanks for the link to greatschools.net. I did actually look through APS's report on test scores -- but I know that they generally are a better predictor of family income than of actual learning. Did you attend La Cueva? Any particular criticism of it? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	imnotted 2008-07-02 02:13 pm UTC (link)
	It was one of 3 high schools I attended (all of which were in different states), and it was by far the best public school I ever attended. (Reply to this)(Parent)

exile_27
2008-07-02 07:55 pm UTC (link)

I did not attend La Cueva; my understanding of the school comes from the criticisms of my friends who attended it. Those criticisms:

1. A freshman girl, who had an upside-down American flag pinned to the back of her jeans jacket, had it forcibly removed by upper classmen football players.

2. The atmosphere has been reported as being one hostile to dissent and political discourse, which is a terrible thing for teenagers.

3. The whole SWAT fiasco recently seemed to be emblematic of a distrust of teenagers and a hostile attitude towards students.

The other reasons for disliking the school (not based on students reports) is that it's touted as the best public school when others do just as well with less money and with more challenging populations.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

test scores

starswolf
2008-07-03 04:58 pm UTC (link)

Also, schools with higher test scores aren't under pressure to raise them-- and thus the teachers can be more creative and spend less time on test prep.

That being said, I went to Dennis Chavez 20 years ago-- very high test scores, but we did a lot of things that are considered poor education now such as memorizing lists of spelling words and using workbooks. I can't really blame the teahcers though. Without adequate preparation time you can't come up with 6 hours a day of creative activities.

I'd also look at things like how much PE, art, music, etc. students get-- do the schools value kids holistically? A lot of this is realted to the power of the neighborhood PTA to raise money, however.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	eclypsia 2008-07-01 08:58 pm UTC (link)
	Commute and put your child in private school. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	abqrealtor 2008-07-02 05:49 am UTC (link)
	Ah -- same problem, different realm. What criteria will you use to choose the right private school? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

newsbean
2008-07-02 05:02 pm UTC (link)

That is much more dependent on the child than the public school question. For a strictly hardcore academic school, the Academy. But for schools that focus on the roundedness of the child - there are many many good choices. It would be very dependent on what quality determined a good school for the child, which is naturally something that can only be thought about when you know the kid. *smile*

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	mrsjeffgoldblum 2008-07-01 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	The public education here is awful. I'm all for homeschooling or private school. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	abqrealtor 2008-07-02 05:50 am UTC (link)
	Did you go through public school here? How would you choose a private school? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mmaestro 2008-07-01 09:39 pm UTC (link)
	Sad to say, but start saving for the Academy. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	abqrealtor 2008-07-02 05:50 am UTC (link)
	It's interesting. I've known several people who went to high school at Abq Academy, and they uniformly had a terrible time there. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	newsbean 2008-07-02 05:04 pm UTC (link)
	All the people on the outside think it's great - the kids on the inside get burned out and feel like they missed the important living part of the being in school. (I, thankfully, was one of the few people in my family and group of friends not to go there. It was a blessing to be placed on the wait list! I didn't reapply after everyone found out what it was like.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	starswolf 2008-07-03 04:54 pm UTC (link)
	Did you like your public school? I have a theory that most people just don't like their schooling. But personally I MUCH preferred high school to college. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

newsbean
2008-07-03 07:46 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I loved it. I had a really wonderful time. The teachers were great, and I was well prepared for college. I certainly wasn't in the "in" crowd, but I had plenty of intelligent, talented friends. I also liked college.

Most of the people I know think that their schooling was great. At least the ones who didn't go to AA. (Although, for a few of them, that was the right place and they loved it.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

starswolf
2008-07-03 04:53 pm UTC (link)

I went to the Academy. I loved a lot of things about it-- high level of intellectualism, supportive teachers, creativity, opportunities (like not getting cut from sports).

There is very ambitious attitude, though, to the point of sometimes unhealthy workaholism and too much pressure to go to a high ranked college and become something high earning. (I tend to think, however, that this just follows the pattern of most people ending up in the same socioeconomic class as their parents).

The downside is that you really don't get comfortable with people from a ride range of backgrounds. The Academy kids are not necessarily representative of the world as a whole.

If I were insistent upon going the private school route, I would send my kid to The Bosque-- it seems to attract a bit more creative people than the Academy, but it might only be middle school.

Having gone to private school and taught in public, I can't say that I necessarily think private schools are worth the money. They are definitely better, but are they worth decades of debt? It was great for me because I was a sensitive, intellectual kid whose life was school, but it also made me sheltered and skewed my perception of the many possible definitions of being "successful."

Edited at 2008-07-03 05:09 pm UTC

(Reply to this)(Parent)

zelle999
2008-07-01 09:57 pm UTC (link)

I'm a product of APS and I am happy that my daughter will be too. I went to Mark Twain Elementary, Hayes Middle School and Eldorado High School and never had to switch teachers, never had to complain about inattentive or sub-par or unqualified teachers. It's unfortunate that people have the attitude that private school is the only option.

In fact, my mother was a teacher for 20 years and now, 10 years after leaving the classroom she STILL regularly gets postcards and phone calls from students whose lives she impacted.

So for those of you who have such hatred toward APS, please put your children in private school. The rest of us appreciate your tax dollars either way.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

abqrealtor
2008-07-02 05:53 am UTC (link)

I attended APS schools, too, though I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that I'm a product of them. I'm glad that you had a good experience. Did your parents choose their neighborhood based on schools?

When I was in high school, I recall that the then-principal of Eldorado hated the CEC, and actively discouraged his students from attending CEC.

In fact, my mother was a teacher for 20 years and now, 10 years after leaving the classroom she STILL regularly gets postcards and phone calls from students whose lives she impacted.

That's incredibly cool. Do you mind if I ask where she taught?

I really think that every school is different, but it doesn't seem like there's an easy way for parents of prospective students to be able to tell what, exactly, is different from one school to another.

APS does provide the no-child-left-behind statistics, but they're obviously skewed.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	paoconnell 2008-07-01 10:16 pm UTC (link)
	The best public schools seem to be in neighborhoods that are stable, mostly owner occupied, and where those homes show pride of ownership (not necessarily expensive houses, but decently maintained). We lived not far from La Cueva HS, but in the Del Norte school district. La Cueva was full of brats, based on reports by our kids. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	abqrealtor 2008-07-02 05:55 am UTC (link)
	The best public schools Part of what I'm trying to get at here is -- what exactly is your definition of "best public schools"? When you moved into the La Cueva district, were the schools part of your decision? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	paoconnell 2008-07-02 02:21 pm UTC (link)
	We moved into the Del Norte district, because La Cueva was full of yuppie puppies that had weird attitudes. Too much drugs and booze. That impression was later confirmed by our kids when they got to high school. It wasn't the teachers' doing; I suspect the parents. School districts we also considered: Sandia and Eldorado. If we had the money, Albuquerque Academy. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	7ghent 2008-07-01 10:24 pm UTC (link)
	All of the guys I worked with at Samba had their kids in charter schools and were happy with the results. (Reply to this)(Thread)

abqrealtor
2008-07-02 05:56 am UTC (link)

Interesting. I'm a big fan of the charter school system (even though there are some flaws, just like any system).

But, what I really want to know is this:
What will you and

cuntchocula do if you have school-aged children in this town? If money were not a major object, would you move to a different neighborhood to be in a different school district -- and if so, how will you choose the district or school you want to be near?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	bitchcandie 2008-07-01 11:20 pm UTC (link)
	Amen eclypsia However if private schooling and homeschooling is not an option I would visit the schools talk to students and teachers. If that's not an option community groups. Also crime ratings seems to be a good indicator. Poverty areas. Community forums like this. Comparisons to schools that are local to where ever you/they are moving from. My 10cents (Reply to this)(Thread)

abqrealtor
2008-07-02 05:59 am UTC (link)

I would visit the schools talk to students and teachers.

I think that's a really good plan. But with over 100 elementary schools, people need a systematic way of cutting it down to three or four schools that they are auditioning.

If you were in total control of where your kids were going, would you have a school (or a set of schools) in mind.

BTW, a friend of mine used to teach at Comanche Elementary (not too far from you), and she thought it was a great school. But it doesn't stand out in terms of ratings. She said a lot of people used the school website (which she created) to decide on it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

bitchcandie
2008-07-02 06:14 am UTC (link)

I am not a fan of APS however EG Ross Elementary was great. I went there and many of my old teachers still teach there. Route 66 Elementary is where My older girls go now it's in Edgewood but other than the Principal being a stuffy goody-goody (she has a nun or schoolmarm attitude I'd like to smack out of her) it's a great school.
I enjoyed Mckinley Middle School. The Band Director and Choir directors were both amazing women. I haven't been back to see if they still teach there.
Del Norte is my high School of Choice. At the time they had the best band director and I loved school downside was there very selective disiplinary system. Some kids get into trouble for doing what other kids were doing 10 minutes before in front of the same teachers. Really that's where you have to check, See how students interact with students and see how students interact with other students.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	newsbean 2008-07-02 05:07 pm UTC (link)
	Comanche is a wonderful school! But like you said - doesn't stand out. I wonder if that's actually something to put in the rubric. You want a school that does well in the ratings, but isn't the top of the pile. (Top of the pile could indicate an overbearing interest in test scores, not actual learning. It could also be the product of a very homogeneous population.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

Checking out schools.

buddhafiddle
2008-07-02 12:06 am UTC (link)

I'd work my network until I could find some educators whose opinions I'd trust. I'd call every charter school I could find on the website, and I'd find parents I could talk to.

I would think in terms of finding the 'right' school, not 'good' schools. I went to an inner city school that I was warned against by many of my middle school classmates. I went considerably farther in my academic career than most of my friends who went to the Albuquerque Academy. The reason for this wasn't that AHS was better than AA; it was because my high school was the right school for me--it was small, had good honors teachers, and served the UNM neighborhood, so it had a pro-intellectual atmosphere.

The main key is to find out how a kid like your kid does at that school.

On the neighborhood level, Albuquerque has a handful of good elementary schools, a few good high schools, and three or so decent middle schools (and I taught public school here, and I taught at Duke University and Umass, so I'm not talking ex ano); Albuquerque's Charter schools are really exceptional for the most part, though they are really crowded because we have an ambitious public and an un-ambitious school system. My own son drew a lottery number of 150 at a school where 35 students were admitted, so you can't bank on the charter schools.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Checking out schools. starswolf 2008-07-02 12:07 am UTC (link)
	My perception from teaching in APS is that the charter schools are a real mixed bag. Some of them are great and some are awful. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Checking out schools. buddhafiddle 2008-07-02 01:20 am UTC (link)
	Valid. What I should have said is that there are many good charter schools; PAPA, Amy Biehl, Mountain Mahogany, and -- by initial reputation--DATA seem to be really good schools. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Checking out schools.

abqrealtor
2008-07-02 06:03 am UTC (link)

I'd work my network until I could find some educators whose opinions I'd trust

Heh. *drills down* How would you know when you'd found someone whose opinion you could trust?

I would think in terms of finding the 'right' school, not 'good' schools.

I completely agree with you on this one. But, it's so frustrating. If you were just moving to this city and faced with over 100 elementary schools, there's no good way to differentiate them (as far as I know) by special programs that they offer.

I went to an inner city school that I was warned against by many of my middle school classmates.

Heh. I totally lucked into the right high school for me. And it was right for me mainly because it was right next to CEC. But I don't think there was any way for my parents (especially my dad, who was out-of-town) to have known that it was a good fit for me.

My own son drew a lottery number of 150 at a school where 35 students were admitted, so you can't bank on the charter schools.

*nod*

I'm heart-broken for him, even now. It's so frustrating.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

starswolf
2008-07-02 12:06 am UTC (link)

While the stereotypes of what are "good" schools seem to align well with socioeconomics, I'm not sure that's always the truth. But it is true more teachers want to work in those areas so they get their pick of teachers.

I would, however, not move to the faster growing areas of town. The schools there are too large, overcrowded and lacking in resources (and I know because I taught at one for three years).

(Reply to this)(Thread)

abqrealtor
2008-07-02 06:06 am UTC (link)

But it is true more teachers want to work in those areas so they get their pick of teachers.

I'm not at all sure that it's true that teachers want to teach in wealthy neighborhoods. My understanding has always been that teachers strongly prefer to teach somewhere where they align well with the principal (and that many teachers will leave a school to follow a good principal).

Also, I think that the non-traditional schools are the ones that are most sought after. I've always thought that CEC and Freedom had their pick of teachers.

I would, however, not move to the faster growing areas of town.

That's a very good point. I think that if I were making the choice, one of the metrics I'd want to see would be the student:teacher ratio. I think the city considers shutting down Del Norte every few years, because it has such a small population of students.

I know because I taught at one for three years

Which one?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

starswolf
2008-07-03 05:03 pm UTC (link)

I've been to the APS teacher fairs. The number of teachers standing in line at Northeast Heights school tables were... many. THe number of teachers standing in line at South Valley school tables were very few.

Obviously there's exceptions.

Some of the poorer schools have smaller class size which is neat. I enjoyed working at Eugene Field El. for instance.

I taught at Seven Bar El.. The lack of materials and resources and the problems with overcrowding were huge. THe staff is VERY devoted but it's hard to work miracles when you don't get much to work with.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

exile_27
2008-07-02 01:21 am UTC (link)

I'm a product of APS, and pretty happy with the education I received (though it had the standard flaws that are everywhere in public education). I graduated from Albuquerque High, a school that only has 70% of entering seniors graduate (which makes the graduating total probably something like 40% of kids who enroll as freshmen), and that school routinely sends kids off to Ivys. It has a good honors program and a good AP program. APS can be done in bad schools by determined parents and students without fleeing to private school, and without running screaming from poor schools.

Worth checking out (at least for high schoolers, and their parents I suppose) is stuff like Dual Enrollment at CNM, and CNM's drop-in program, both of which are free to high school aged students.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

abqrealtor
2008-07-02 06:10 am UTC (link)

I graduated from Albuquerque High

Me too. How is the old alma mater?

a school that only has 70% of entering seniors graduate (which makes the graduating total probably something like 40% of kids who enroll as freshmen)

Because I'm a big weirdo, I don't necessarily consider graduation rates to be the best measure of a school. In fact, I think I'd like a school better with a lower graduation rate (suggesting that those students who stayed were actually committed to finishing high school, not just marking time).

It has a good honors program and a good AP program

*nod*

I'm very grateful for the AP program from high school. I think I earned about a semester and a half's worth of credits that way.

Dual Enrollment at CNM, and CNM's drop-in program

I agree. I think those are some of APS's cooler programs.

I was, in particular, thinking about elementary schools -- but I really appreciate your advice.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

exile_27
2008-07-02 08:03 pm UTC (link)

Well, I still "bleed green", but I think that is from the begrudging pride of going to a school that wasn't a cakewalk.

For elementary schools, I have to recommend Bandelier. That is the school I genuinely enjoyed, and the neighborhood is fantastic. If you're moving to be near a school, the part of the Bandelier district that overlaps with the Jefferson district is probably best; Montezuma is a good school as well, and Jefferson (from what i've heard) is as tolerable as a middle school could be, plus it boasts Scot Key (http://frannyzoo.blogspot.com/). That sets the kid up for either AHS or Highland, which are not terrible.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	djsin 2008-07-02 03:09 am UTC (link)
	by housing property tax. the more property tax you paid goes further towards programs in school. At least in this is the case in Colorado. I'm assuming New Mexico is the same. The census has interesting statistics that you can find all about block, tract and neighborhood level. They have thematic maps as well. (Reply to this)(Thread)

abqrealtor
2008-07-02 06:11 am UTC (link)

the more property tax you paid goes further towards programs in school.

Although it is true that property taxes support the public schools, I don't think that it's direct that way. I think that if you live in Albuquerque, your property taxes go to APS, who then distributes the money as they see fit, not according to the cost of the houses in that neighborhood.

The census has interesting statistics that you can find all about block, tract and neighborhood level. They have thematic maps as well.

Cool! Do you have a link?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	chickyboo 2008-07-02 03:24 am UTC (link)
	I don't know what your background is but I think St. Pius has the highest graduation rates. It's a private school though. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	abqrealtor 2008-07-02 06:12 am UTC (link)
	It's not really for me -- I'm trying to figure out what other people would want. Thanks for the suggestion, though! Did you attend St. Pius? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	chickyboo 2008-07-02 06:34 am UTC (link)
	No, I'm not from Albuquerque. This is just what I've heard by word of mouth since moving here. (Reply to this)(Parent)

newsbean
2008-07-02 05:14 pm UTC (link)

This relates tangentially, since I'm assuming you are a realtor (it wasn't a hard leap!)

APS district lines change frequently. The only way to be sure that you stay in a district is to live pretty close to the school that you're aiming for. A friend of mine who lived a street over from me changed high schools three times because of changing district lines. (Highland, Elderado and AHS, if I remember correctly.) If people are picking where they want to live based on a school, they should be advised that the district lines *do* change, and if they want to be sure of where they're at, they should live quite close to the school. (This is a continuing phenomenon, I know plenty of teachers who complain about it on an ongoing basis.)

(Reply to this)

genhawk
2008-07-02 05:26 pm UTC (link)

When my ex and I were house shopping with a soon-to-be high school age child, the overall reputation of the school as well as the type of family in the area were our largest influences. We looked at houses in the La Cueva area that were within our price range but decided not to live there because we didn't want our child to go to a school where he was so likely to be influenced by elitist attitudes and drugs.

So it came down to Sandia/Del Norte, and partly the decision was about finding the right house, but it was also a large factor that Sandia is overcrowded and Del Norte is undercrowded.

So the kid went to Del Norte and did great, no real problems with the school at all. Some of their alternative scheduling and programming was nice for him as well, since he was able to start attending college while in high school, for high school credit.

I think the bottom line was that it came down to what neighborhood we felt was composed of "people like us." And whether people will say it or not, and you surely cannot because of the risk of steering, I imagine that is the number one factor underneath it all.

(Reply to this)

	exile_27 2008-07-02 08:04 pm UTC (link)
	I posted about this on the duke city fix, and they have some interesting comments over there: http://www.dukecityfix.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1233957:BlogPost:129467&page=1 (Reply to this)

	veguita 2008-07-11 04:02 am UTC (link)
	Think charter or magnet school (Reply to this)

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