Nao ([info]gannet) wrote in [info]advanced_knit,
@ 2007-01-30 18:20:00
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the English Cast On, illustrated

Sometime in my teens, I learned this cast-on, which has remained my favorite. I might have learned it from my grandmother; I can't remember, and my grandmother's memory is unreliable at best at this point, so I'll never know for sure. I'm a little sad about this, but so be it.

I didn't know a name for it until recently, when I checked Nancy Bush's Folk Socks out of the library. It was the first place I had ever seen it described. Armed with a name, I searched on Google, and found only two sets of instructions for it, both text. Here's the links, just in case they help clarify the instructions I'm providing: Britt Scharringhausen, Lord Gazmuth.

But there's no illustrated instructions online that I can find, and I'd like to show other people how to do it, as I think this cast-on has a number of advantages:

  • It's quite stretchy. (I can usually use it for sock cuffs.)
  • Because it's knit onto the needle, you can cast on in pattern. I only show casting on with knit stitch here, but you can also knit and purl (handy when you're about to do ribbing), and I imagine you could do the first row of a lace pattern with it.
  • I think it's attractive.
  • At the end of casting on, you'll have completed your first row of knitting.

There are some potential disadvantages:

  • If you aren't comfortable with throwing the yarn around the needle with your right hand when knitting, this isn't for you. (So if you're exclusively a Continental-style knitter, this won't be comfortable.)
  • You need to remember that you've completed your first row of knitting after casting on. Note: for some stitch patterns, if knit in the round, you may want to purl your cast-on instead of knitting.
  • If you are using the tail as a marker for something, it might be at the opposite end from where you're used to.
  • As with the long-tail cast on, you'll need to allow enough tail for the cast on (or else use a separate length of yarn, in which case you'll need to weave in extra ends).
ETA: I didn't anticipate the discussion that came up in comments. I hope I'm not going to sound snippy (it's more that I'm surprised). Yes, this is *a* long tail cast on, which it didn't occur to me to mention specifically. No, the end result is not the same as what is usually called "long tail"--there's an extra half twist to the loops, which is what makes it stretchy. The structure is the same as the Twisted German (thanks to [info]colorwhirl for reminding me of this), but the method for arriving at the end result is different. The two specific advantages I personally think the English cast-on has over the Twisted German method are that since it involves knitting the stitches onto the needle, it feels more like just knitting, and it allows you to cast on in pattern, which I personally like a lot.

Figure out how you're going to do the tail. I've seen suggestions for the long-tail cast on of leaving a tail that's four times the width of your first row of knitting. I've also seen the suggestion of 1" per stitch in thicker yarn (worsted) and 1/2" per stitch for things like lace weight. Alternately, you can leave about a yard of tail, cast on 20 stitches, mark the ends of the tail yarn used in the cast on, unravel it, and figure out how much yarn you used per stitch. Also leave some extra for weaving in once you're done knitting. [Or you can use a separate length of yarn* from another ball of the same yarn, a contrast color, or the other end of a center-pull ball.]

First, lay the yarn over your palm so that the tail end is trailing off the pinky side of your palm (it's usually much longer than I show here; I'm just trying to make it clear which end is which) and the ball end is lying over the base of your thumb.

Close your fingers over the yarn. (I usually leave my index finger pointing up, contrary to this picture, but it doesn't really matter.)

Loop the ball end of the yarn around the tip of your thumb so that the ball yarn is between your index finger and the tail yarn.

With your index finger, reach over the ball yarn and under the tail yarn.

Here's another, closer view.

Straighten your index finger.

Drop the yarn off your thumb and pull the loop tight around your index fingertip. You now have what is essentially a twisted backward loop on your index finger. I kind of think of my finger as a flexible knitting needle when I do this cast on.

I did a little fiddling with two yarns so that you can see the structure of the loop more clearly.

Pick up your knitting needle, put it knitwise through the loop on your finger, and knit the stitch off your finger, tugging gently on the tail yarn to pull the stitch snug. (Note that the first stitch is a slip knot, so if you'd rather do that as the beginning of your cast-on, you can. Also, you can insert the needle purlwise if you want to cast on a purl stitch.)

Now repeat the procedure. I generally keep the tail yarn held beneath the fingers of my left hand as I cast on. You need to be careful to put the correct yarn under those fingers if you put everything down to do something else.

A first for me--a foray into video (first in slow motion, and then closer to full speed):

Here's several stitches on the needle, after I stopped casting on.

I realized that the fuzzy yarn makes it hard to see the structure of the cast on, so here's a couple more views with different yarn:

The tail yarn part of the cast on is a series of backward loops twisted an extra time. They lean to one side (from bottom left to top right).

*If you want to use a separate strand of yarn instead of a tail, make a slip knot in the end of it and put it on your needle. Don't count it as a stitch. Cast on the number of stitches you want. When you can, drop the slip knot instead of knitting it.




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[info]hugh_mannity
2007-01-30 11:40 pm UTC (link)
That's also called the long tail cast on. Google has lots of links to it.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-30 11:51 pm UTC (link)
Huh. The things I've seen called the "long tail" had the same result, but used a different motion. I'll have to go look again, I guess.

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[info]boo_kat
2007-01-30 11:52 pm UTC (link)
I don't think this is the long tail cast on. Long tail involves holding two pieces of the yarn (hanging from the needle) in one hand and manipulating the needle between the strands. She's holding one strand in the left hand and one in the right, and knitting the cast-on stitches onto the needle.

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[info]uozaki
2007-01-31 12:12 am UTC (link)
Also no long-tail I've done could be called stretchy. Maybe just similar?

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 02:35 am UTC (link)
I've just done the regular long tail and the English cast on, and there's an extra half twist in the loop of the latter which makes it stretchier. Twisted German has the same result as the English one, but doesn't let you knit the stitches onto the needle, so you can't cast on in pattern.

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[info]colorwhirl
2007-01-30 11:56 pm UTC (link)
No, it's not. It's a style of long-tail cast on, though.
It's also similar to the Twisted German, which is my default.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 02:14 am UTC (link)
The end result is the same as Twisted German, yes.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-30 11:57 pm UTC (link)
This is the long tail, as found at knitty: http://www.knitty.com/ISSUEsummer05/images/co_longtail.MOV

Note that the stitches aren't knitted onto the needle. What I like about the version I show above is that it feels more like knitting, and second, can be used to cast on in pattern.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 02:37 am UTC (link)
Also, on further investigation, there's an extra half-twist to the English cast-on, which makes it stretchier than the usual long tail.

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[info]hugh_mannity
2007-01-31 03:13 am UTC (link)
Ah! Good to know. I was taught English as Long Tail.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 01:07 pm UTC (link)
I can see why you thought my google skills were lacking! It can be very confusing when the same name can mean different things (as when, on a folk dance mailing list, an American man informed a bunch of Brits that his team wore vests and knickers--*grin*).

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[info]hugh_mannity
2007-01-31 02:28 pm UTC (link)
Well it would have been pretty silly to call it "English" as I was in England at the time! It was never given a name.

It's been my default cast on for ever and I didn't notice the extra half-twist difference between the two methods.

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[info]takarosa
2007-01-30 11:46 pm UTC (link)
I've been knitting for around 20+ years and this is the nicest, best documented explanations of this method I've come across. Nice work!

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[info]gannet
2007-01-30 11:50 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]helloyarn
2007-01-31 12:13 am UTC (link)
Thanks so much for the video, in particular. I wasn't quite grasping it until I watched that. I'll have to give this some practice!

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 12:32 am UTC (link)
Sometimes, nothing is as good as seeing it in person. Alas, the closest to "in person" we can get online is video--so I'm glad I was able to include that.

I hope you find it useful!

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[info]sarcausticgreen
2007-01-31 01:45 am UTC (link)
It is absolutely a long-tail cast on, with an irrelevantly different hand motion.

Then end effect is of two rows, one with backwards loops (from the tail) and the other knit stitches.

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[info]star_blue
2007-01-31 01:48 am UTC (link)
it's definitely different from the long-tail cast on (also called, i believe, "yo-yo cast on:) i use, in hand motion and result.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 02:03 am UTC (link)
I should have been more specific in my post. I never said that this cast-on isn't a long-tailed cast on. I simply wanted to show people the method I use to arrive at the end result, which I think has two main advantages (in my personal opinion):

1. It's more like the rest of knitting in how you do it and feels more comfortable to me as a result.

2. If you're doing a textured pattern for your knitting, you can cast on in pattern, which I don't think is possible with the more standard method. (I would be happy to be shown to be wrong about this.)

Obviously, it's not going to be useful for everyone.

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[info]capsicumanuum
2007-01-31 07:15 pm UTC (link)
I use Twisted German as my default cast-on, and I am absolutely able to cast on in pattern. It's not as obvious how to get knit-like and purl-like cast on stitches using the twisted German hand motions, but it is possible.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 02:11 am UTC (link)
And actually, now that I look at it, it *is* different, structurally. The English cast-on I show puts an extra half-twist in the loops across the bottom, at least as compared with what I have seen generically called "the long tail" cast-on.

What I do is still a long-tail, yes. But it's structurally the same as the twisted German, not the standard long tail.

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[info]sarcausticgreen
2007-01-31 02:40 am UTC (link)
Right you are! I had to try it out to believe you.

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[info]alison_in_oh
2007-01-31 02:43 am UTC (link)
Saying that, it's clear you didn't try it.

I saw the post, thought, "How is that different from the long-tail cast on?" So I picked up needle and yarn and did both...

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[info]outofthisplace
2007-01-31 03:20 am UTC (link)
this is extremely well-done and informative! I'll have to try that out! thanks!

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I hope you like the cast-on, too.

:)

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[info]applefaerie
2007-01-31 04:49 am UTC (link)
ooh, lovely! i'm going to have to use this from now on (after mastering it, of course!) i find that every time i cast on, my cast on row is either too loose or too tight, and i'd prefer something i can knit tightly like i knit regularly, but still maintains elasticity and give like this does.
thanks for posting! i'll be adding this to my memories, and saving the webpage to my hard drive just incase you un-host the photos someday. i have a hideous memory for cast-on techniques, and i have to review them every time i cast on (sad, but that's life!).
this is awesome. and thanks for also fully defining what exactly it is, in terms of a cast on, so everyone can fully understand that it's not THE long tail cast on, but it is A long tail cast on, with results simmilar to twisted german.

i like the simplicity of this once you get the motion down, and i'll have to figure out what it'd look like if you knit it on continental style, but i can cast on english if forced ;) hehe!

thanks again for the informative post, taking the time to make a movie, and for fully defining it in terminology so everyone can understand :D

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 01:10 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the compliments! I hope find the cast on as useful as I do. (And I'm a big fan of saving stuff to my hard drive for just such circumstances as you describe.)


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[info]alison_in_oh
2007-01-31 03:10 pm UTC (link)
I tried to purl on with this a few times and got a snarled mess. Any tips?

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Ok, so in the pictures above, I inserted the needle into the loop from left to right to knit. To purl, I insert the needle from right to left and then wrap the yarn around the needle as usual.

I hope this helps.

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[info]alison_in_oh
2007-01-31 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Maybe the problem is just that I'm not a natural at throwing...yes, I think that's it exactly, I just wasn't drawing the loop through properly. :D

So having done that, I feel like I've got a pretty good grasp of the structure of this and long-tail cast on. So in answer to your question of whether you can cast on in pattern with the long-tail, yes you can but it's awkward. You have to get the working yarn in front of the tail yarn, and because you're tensioning the working yarn with your forefinger, that means a contortion act where your index fingertip has to come down and nearly touch your big thumb-knuckle. Even then, wrapping the yarn properly is tough, but scooping it through combined-style seems to work.

I'm not sure whether that would be more or less awkward for me than casting on with a throwing motion, but I think I'm going to try a swatch and see how casting on in pattern affects the result of ribbing, so thanks again for going to the trouble of this tutorial! :)

FYI, I think some of the confusion about this being a right-handed long-tail came up because most of your listed advantages can be applied to that cast-on as well (it's stretchy -- maybe not as much as yours, I don't know, but more than knitted or cabled cast ons -- and it knits the first row).

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 05:11 pm UTC (link)
Ah, ok. Glad you figured out what was happening.

That does sound like an awkward solution to casting on in pattern with the other kind of long-tail, though I'm definitely interested to know that it's possible. But the standard long-tail just feels awkward to me anyway. I can do it easily enough, but it just doesn't ever feel right.

That's the main reason I wanted to post this--I'm enough of a string geek that I like to know about a range of methods so I can figure out what I like best. So even if this produces the same result as another method, if it's a more comfortable method for some people, then I'm glad that I posted it.

I probably should have just said that from the start. Oh, well. Next time I post an alternate method for doing something (I'm sure I will) I'll just say that up front.

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[info]sarakate
2007-01-31 06:59 pm UTC (link)
For those of us who knit Continentally, there's a pretty easy variant of the long-tail that lets you cast on in pattern. It's based on the Norwegian purl, which is done with the yarn starting in the back. To do the Norwegian purl when working on a normal row, one picks up the working yarn with the right needle tip first, then goes into the stitch to be purled, which has the effect of getting the yarn in front of the needle without it starting there, and then the needle tip comes back to catch the working yarn again and pull it down and through the stitch. To use this for a long-tail cast-on, you set up in exactly the same way as for regular long tail, but then catch the forefinger strand first, then come through the outer thumb strand top to bottom instead of bottom to top (recognizing that that outer strand is the strand that forms the loop for the backwards-loop cast-on, what you're actually doing here is just entering it purlwise instead of knitwise), and then come back and catch the forefinger strand again and pull it through exactly as the strand is pulled through in the Norwegian purl. It's pretty easy to do, given familiarity with the Norwegian purl in the first place, and probably makes no sense at all if you don't know that purl style.

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[info]alison_in_oh
2007-01-31 07:13 pm UTC (link)
I had done Norwegian purl before, but had to refresh my memory with a quick look at knittinghelp.com. :) After posting this I kept practicing (literally spent the morning casting on, LOL) and the method I wound up with was basically Norwegian purl with a bit of extra yarn-maneuvering to help visualize the stitch formation. But with the Norwegian purl refresher, it made a lot more sense and less yarn-maneuvering is necessary -- so thanks! :D I still find myself scooping the yarn combined-style, which I think is OK because I tend to do my purls in ribbing with a combined wrap. But purling for the Twisted German cast-on seems to require a proper counter-clockwise wrap for the stitch to tighten up prettily....well, no, with practice it comes together OK with a clockwise wrap too. :)

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[info]sarakate
2007-01-31 06:02 pm UTC (link)
The two specific advantages I personally think the English cast-on has over the Twisted German method are that since it involves knitting the stitches onto the needle, it feels more like just knitting, and it allows you to cast on in pattern, which I personally like a lot.

Recognizing that the standard long-tail cast on is just (a) making a backwards loop and then (b) knitting continentally through that loop, I figured out quite some time ago that it's possible to cast on in pattern with it by replacing the part-b of that with Norwegian purl, but I've never extended that to use with the Twisted German. Now I'm going to have to see if there's a way to do that, which would produce a Continental variant of the in-pattern use of this, for those of us whose right hands are Stupid With Yarn.

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[info]gannet
2007-01-31 06:21 pm UTC (link)
You know, that would be very cool. I probably wouldn't care for it myself, but I'm all about having a range of methods available so that people can use the ones that work for them.

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[info]alison_in_oh
2007-01-31 06:45 pm UTC (link)
I've just spent all morning doing that. :P

Set up as for long-tail cast-on. Put the thumb loop on your middle finger the same way it's taken up onto the index finger in this method, but be sure to come in under the working yarn. Now you're all set up with a loop to purl off of your middle finger the ordinary way, and the working yarn tensioned across your left index finger like usual.

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[info]alison_in_oh
2007-01-31 06:51 pm UTC (link)
Wait, Norwegian purl works even smoother. D'oh!

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[info]capsicumanuum
2007-01-31 07:18 pm UTC (link)
I know how to cast on purl-style using the twisted German method, but I don't think I can really put into words how I do it. If I can find my spare battery, I will take some photos.

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[info]ashmael
2007-02-11 08:34 am UTC (link)
i'll just ignore all the debate and say, after trying it out, this cast on is awesome. both the method AND the results (whether or not the results look the same as some other method, the method was very comfortable for the way i hold the yarn). in my confused first attempts i got things that looked similar but weren't stretchy, but once i got it right it was neat, easy, AND stretchy. and very easy to cast on in pattern.

SO, i just wanted to say i liked it and thanks :)

i've always used the really simple long-tail cast (the one that i suppose could be described as more or less a series of slipknots) on because it's worked satisfactorily and is tidy and simple, but it is not nearly as stretchy, so i'll likely be using this a lot from now on! :)

(perhaps a lame old question but since i'm new to the comm - d'you have any trick for getting the cast-off to be as evenly stretchy without looking just overly loose? ;P)

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[info]gannet
2007-02-11 02:39 pm UTC (link)
Hurray! I'm glad you like it!

As far as cast-offs go, I prefer not to use the one that most people learn first--I don't usually like the way it looks. I'm trying to come up with a way that matches this cast-on in appearance and structure.

In the meantime, I like Elizabeth Zimmerman's sewn cast-off (scroll down to the bottom) and sometimes (depending what I'm making) the tubular cast off (for pictures of the sewing motion, see the grafted cast off for single rib). There's also a bunch more listed on Lauri B's Toes and Heels (scroll down to "binding off").

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