O. Torio ([info]stranger988) wrote in [info]abortiondebate,
@ 2008-02-17 21:45:00
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Standard for Personhood
(This is my first post in this community so my apologies if this topic has been discussed before. If it has please respond with a link to the post.)

Abortion proponents often make the claim that a fetus is not a person. The main reason is that the fetus lacks the ability to carry out some function that a recognized person does. The fetus can't survive on its own, communicate, reason, feel or exercise any rights they might have.

The problem with this functional argument is that the functional deficiencies of the baby in the womb also exist for the baby outside of the womb. A newborn cannot survive on its own, communicate (intelligently), it cannot reason (as we understand it) nor are its senses fully developed. Yet most pro-choice people would agree that a newborn has the same right to live as any other person. Not only that, not all "persons" have all of these functions (i.e. they are handicapped or infirm.) Yet we don't consider them as less of a person. Even perfectly healthy persons have moments where these functions aren't working (sleep, unconsciousness, temporary insanity, substance-induced stupors). But nobody considers them non-persons or less of a person during those moments.

My question for pro-choice people is this: what defines personhood? Is it function and ability? If so, why not provide less rights to the less abled and more rights to the more abled. If personhood is defined by something else, what is it?



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[info]mrs_slats
2008-02-19 12:38 am UTC (link)
Pro-Choicers will say that a mother can pass off a baby and someone else can take care of it, but she can't do that with a baby in the womb. That a baby in the womb is basically just a parasite until it's born. (I'm pregnant, hormones is my reason if this sounds rude or anything).

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[info]lilyforthewin
2008-02-19 12:45 am UTC (link)
Do you speak for all pro-choicers?

While I do believe there is a significant difference between the physical dependency of a fetus on a pregnant woman and the social dependence of a newborn on any adult caregiver, I do not believe that a fetus is "basically a parasite".

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(no subject) - [info]mrs_slats, 2008-02-19 04:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 02:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pewter_wings, 2008-02-19 03:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 03:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pewter_wings, 2008-02-19 03:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 03:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pewter_wings, 2008-02-19 03:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 03:48 pm UTC
Mod warning - [info]muliebrity, 2008-02-19 07:38 pm UTC

[info]crybetty
2008-02-19 02:05 am UTC (link)
Hormones are always a good reason to speak out of your ass, aren't they? I must be PMSing or something.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mrs_slats, 2008-02-19 04:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrs_slats, 2008-02-19 04:54 am UTC
mod note - [info]muliebrity, 2008-02-19 08:18 pm UTC
Re: mod note - [info]crybetty, 2008-02-19 08:28 pm UTC

[info]lilyforthewin
2008-02-19 12:46 am UTC (link)
I think personhood is red herring. It has nothing to do with a woman's right to choose and pro-lifers only bring it up to try and muddy the waters and distract from the fact that it's pretty disgusting to legally obligate a woman to gestate and give birth.

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[info]prophet_maid
2008-02-19 03:03 am UTC (link)
IAWTC!

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(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 03:07 am UTC

[info]jcross
2008-02-19 04:15 pm UTC (link)
You may disagree with the relevance but I can't imagine personhood as a diversion from the original subject. To the pro-life philosophy it's hugely important. I don't think this issue is so simple that we can imagine it has any clean water. If the pro-choice rhetoric can be seen as 'A woman's body, her choice' then the pro-life rhetoric would have to be 'People have the right to their own life.' That immediately begs the question 'Is a fetus a person?'

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(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-19 04:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 04:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-19 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 05:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-19 05:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-19 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-19 06:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-19 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-19 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]muliebrity, 2008-02-19 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-19 08:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-20 04:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-20 02:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-20 09:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-20 09:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-20 10:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-20 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-21 03:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jcross, 2008-02-21 12:46 pm UTC

[info]gemfyre
2008-02-19 12:53 am UTC (link)
For me, it's not about the personhood of the foetus, but the value it has to other people, because to me that's how personhood is defined.

A wanted foetus is loved by it's parents, and possibly by other friends and family members. I doubt there would be many other people who care about the foetus or even know it exists. An unwanted foetus isn't even cared about by it's own mother.

Once a baby is born everything is more tangible. Family and friends get closer to the child. As it grows and goes to school it meets more people who are affected by this person and have feelings about them.

Once they are adults many may know of them and care about them.

So at different stages of life, more and more people care if that person dies.

I think, if you're not wanted back when there are very few who can care for you, it's probably better to be terminated there and then than prolong the pain for all involved.

You may say, well, pro-choicers care about the foetus, but it's not the same. They are caring about some abstract concept, potential humans. They aren't caring about individuals like parents, family, friends and colleagues do. They can't know of every single foetus in existence and care about them all as individuals.

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(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-19 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gemfyre, 2008-02-19 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-19 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gemfyre, 2008-02-19 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]redheather, 2008-02-19 02:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-19 03:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]muliebrity, 2008-02-19 02:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nancy_whiskey, 2008-02-19 02:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]muliebrity, 2008-02-19 02:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 02:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]redheather, 2008-02-19 02:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrs_slats, 2008-02-19 04:55 am UTC

[info]lil_elf
2008-02-19 01:16 am UTC (link)
Actually, a new born is NOT dependent on one person's body for survival.

To understand the difference, try this simple exercise:
Find a friend or family member who has a newborn- offer to babysit the newborn alone for a while, and do so.
Now, find a friend or family member who is pregnant, offer to ebryosit the embryo for awhil by yourself.
Compare successfullness.

I don't think embryos are people, but even if they were, the fact remains no person has the right to demand use of another's body without their consent.

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(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 04:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-19 05:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 06:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 06:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]choclytgremlins, 2008-02-19 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 10:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]choclytgremlins, 2008-02-20 09:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lil_elf, 2008-02-20 04:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-20 08:01 pm UTC

[info]amaterasu_no_ki
2008-02-19 01:17 am UTC (link)
When you say "abortion proponents," what do you mean by that? A few, some, all? I'm sure that some people do say that, but as far as I know in the pro-choice movement the argument for safe/legal abortion hasn't been about whether the baby is a person or not. It may be a person, it may not, it depends on how you define person, as you noted.

Personally (no pun intended) I think this is a stupid argument regardless of whose using it. As you mentioned, however we define 'person' unless we specifically say 'born person' we're going to be excluding some subset of born human beings. Really, defining a 'person' is fundamentally impossible. Everyone has a different idea of who constitutes a person, who's more or less of a person, etc.

But the point is it doesn't matter whether the baby is a person. What matters is that the woman that the baby is inside is most *certainly* a person, and she has a right to bodily integrity just like any other person.

Would the fetus have that right if it were a person? Of course. But fetal life is contingent upon someone else giving up their bodily integrity to keep it alive. If a person is willing to do that, that is absolutely fine; however, it is unethical (and currently illegal) to force someone to give up their bodily integrity to keep someone else alive regardless of how old that other person is. In this case, it's also discriminatory, as the only humans who can be forced to do so are women.

When fetuses can live without relying on revoking the bodily integrity of other people then this issue may become important, but until then this is just a moot point and a red herring that distracts from the most important point -- the bodily integrity of women.

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(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 04:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-20 07:48 pm UTC

[info]nemo_wistar
2008-02-19 01:20 am UTC (link)
There is no other situation other than pregnancy in which there is an exclusive and total biological dependency of one life upon another. Even in the post-birth situation you brought up, care can still be relegated to another, and the mother's role can be eliminated altogether.

To me, the issue of "personhood" is irrelevant. Instead, it is the issue of autonomy. Person or not, no one has the right to use another for their biological resources. When a woman is pregnant, she has the authority - whether we may like it or not - to determine exactly what she does with her body, and how it is used.

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(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 04:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemo_wistar, 2008-02-19 05:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 06:40 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 09:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemo_wistar, 2008-02-19 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 11:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemo_wistar, 2008-02-19 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 11:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemo_wistar, 2008-02-20 01:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-20 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemo_wistar, 2008-02-20 12:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-20 12:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemo_wistar, 2008-02-20 01:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-21 01:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemo_wistar, 2008-02-21 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-20 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-20 07:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluestareyed, 2008-02-24 09:35 pm UTC

[info]pink_porcupette
2008-02-19 01:50 am UTC (link)
It doesn't matter. I don't like when pro-choice people make that as their main argument, because that shouldn't be the point. What I see as the main issue- why we should have the right to abortion- is that no one person should have the right to use another person's body for whatever reason, even survival.
Someone might die without one of my kidneys, some of my bone marrow, or some of my blood. It might hardly inconvenience me to give up whatever it is they need. That doesn't mean I'm obligated to give it to them. So if someone opposed to abortion rights wants to insist that an inch-long fetus as much a person as an adult, that's fine with me. They can thing whatever they want, but an adult doesn't get to use me for parts without my okay, so neither does the fetus.

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(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pink_porcupette, 2008-02-20 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-20 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pink_porcupette, 2008-02-20 01:10 am UTC

[info]nancy_whiskey
2008-02-19 01:57 am UTC (link)
This doesn't address your question specifically, but I think there are many problems that would follow an "official declaration" of the fetus as a person. Will they be eligible for insurance? As a dependent on taxes?

I agree with [info]lilyforthewin in that such a declaration is just detracting from the argument. It's to stir up emotions and try to win people over, just like calling intact dilation & extraction "partial birth abortion."

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(no subject) - [info]vampire_kitten, 2008-02-19 01:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluestareyed, 2008-02-24 09:56 pm UTC

[info]redheather
2008-02-19 02:01 am UTC (link)
i find personhood irrelevant to the ethics of abortion. it's not something i think about. even if the fetus were a person, i do not believe he/she/it would be entitled to the use of anyone's body, and that, at present, abortion is the only way to separate a fetus from a woman's body. i am ardently prochoice, but i also believe that this method, abortion, is killing. it is simply morally permissible killing. i kill bugs all the time. i eat meat. further, i believe, like most people, that there are instances of the moral permissibility of the killing of humans (i believe, for instance, that it is morally permissible to kill in self-defense. some legislatures and ethical systems promote the permissibility of killing for punishment, or by the request of terminally ill patients, neither of which i personally support). with the case of abortion, i weigh circumstances as much as i would the killing in self-defense. it's just that with abortion, the only circumstances i find relevant are always the same (the fetus' complete dependence on her, and the lack of any other option to halt it once it has begun).

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(no subject) - [info]stranger988, 2008-02-19 04:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaterasu_no_ki, 2008-02-20 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluestareyed, 2008-02-24 10:20 pm UTC

[info]crybetty
2008-02-19 02:02 am UTC (link)
Not only that, not all "persons" have all of these functions (i.e. they are handicapped or infirm.) Yet we don't consider them as less of a person.
Most people think of disabled people as lesser beings, even if they don't admit it. If you're not contributing to society you're not worth much in this world. Fetuses are not disabled persons, they're fetuses.

Even perfectly healthy persons have moments where these functions aren't working (sleep, unconsciousness, temporary insanity, substance-induced stupors). But nobody considers them non-persons or less of a person during those moments.
I really fail to see the logic here? How does a sleeping person is anything like a fetus?

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[info]nothingmuch
2008-02-19 02:12 am UTC (link)
My question for pro-choice people is this: what defines personhood?

Anything that's lodged inside my body when I don't want it there is not a person.

Hell, even if it is wanted there, that doesn't make it a person, either.

Inside my body = me, not someone else.

Edited at 2008-02-19 02:13 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]mrs_slats, 2008-02-19 05:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nothingmuch, 2008-02-19 05:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrs_slats, 2008-02-19 05:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]celaeno, 2008-02-19 10:06 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrs_slats, 2008-02-19 04:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 04:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cicipsychobunny, 2008-02-20 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]crybetty, 2008-02-19 08:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scorpi084, 2008-02-20 02:16 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]like_a_fox23, 2008-02-19 11:43 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]crybetty, 2008-02-19 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilyforthewin, 2008-02-19 09:10 pm UTC
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