Katharine Elizabeth Henry Alexander ([info]darthslacker) wrote in [info]abortiondebate,
@ 2008-01-28 07:08:00
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forum life vs. real life
I've been thinking about discussion and arguments that I've had on forums-mostly this one. It seems when you are dicussing abortion on line, it seem so easy to slip into the "OMG, I can't believe that *expletive* said that. What a *expletive*! I knew that the other side were a bunch of *expletive* selfish/ignorant/whatever *expletive*" 

And yet, in "real" life I know many people, both friends and family, who have the opposite view of me. We manage to get along (most of the time) without trying to kill each other. This might be because we usually don't sit down and hash out or argue different view points like abortion. But it just seems like there is something about the facelessness of online debating that makes it easier to slip into thinking horrible thoughts about the other person.

So my questions is, is everything you say on abortiondebate what you feel exactly? Do you think the style of discussion makes it easier for your judgement to get clouded or for you to take a position out of stubborness? Do you express you views differently in real life? 

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[info]malasadas
2008-01-31 07:34 pm UTC (link)
OMG, I can't believe that *expletive* said that. What a *expletive*! I knew that the other side were a bunch of *expletive* selfish/ignorant/whatever *expletive*


sorry. couldn't resist. I am very very weak.

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[info]darthslacker
2008-02-01 01:51 pm UTC (link)
Its okay. I understand its nothing more than I expected from a bunch of *expletive* *expletive*

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[info]jakshadows
2008-01-31 07:35 pm UTC (link)
So my questions is, is everything you say on abortiondebate what you feel exactly?

Pretty much, yes.

Do you think the style of discussion makes it easier for your judgement to get clouded or for you to take a position out of stubborness?

Just the reverse really. This is a moderated community so you have to be careful not to get overly emotional. It's also easier to verify information via the internets.

Do you express you views differently in real life?

I have to be much nicer here. Many of my peers have suggested I resemble the television character "House" because of my tendency to be short with those less intelligent fortunate.

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[info]cutout18
2008-01-31 08:00 pm UTC (link)
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Well, that answers most of the question.

To the rest, I actually argue the way online that I do in real life. This is an anomaly: The people I argue with in real life understand that debate is rhetoric and not personal, so that even when we say, "I don't know what planet you get this crap from, man, but it's worse than Hitler" no one gets personally offended. A debate is a contest of ideas, not a contest of people; the people are the tools by which the ideas express themselves.

That said, even with moderated debate, the degree of personal attacks on this forum is pretty much on par with any other forum on the interwebs. It is very, very high, because no one risks being retaliated against with anything but words. Couple that with the prevalent mindset here that if you are on the opposing side then clearly you're incapable of thinking, and it's really easy to throw out an insult and ignore any backlash.

There are people on this forum just in it for the 'lulz', so to depend on constructive, rational, levelheaded debate to come from this may be a bit too much. Thankfully, I've managed to learn a few things, out of spite.

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[info]lilyforthewin
2008-01-31 08:44 pm UTC (link)
There are people on this forum just in it for the 'lulz', so to depend on constructive, rational, levelheaded debate to come from this may be a bit too much. Thankfully, I've managed to learn a few things, out of spite.

I had the most hilarious response to this paragraph but I thought better (or worse) of it.

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[info]bluestareyed
2008-02-01 12:26 am UTC (link)
honestly, if you think the personal attacks here are bad, try Yahoo! Answers. they are a fun bunch. the ones here are mild in my experience

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[info]cutout18
2008-02-01 03:03 am UTC (link)
The personal attacks are awful for a forum with a description like this one. I expected rational intellectual debate. And I got some of it, but I got other stuff too.

And trust me, I am well aware that there are worse places on teh intarwebs to voice a controversial opinion. But that's not really how I feel I should set my standards.

"Man, they're doing some personal attacks. Oh well, at least I'm not getting sodomized with a flaming, spiky dildo. Not so bad! Dunno what I'm complaining about."

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[info]darthslacker
2008-02-01 02:25 pm UTC (link)
Thanks, I almost got hot tea up my nose with that last sentence. *glower*

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[info]cutout18
2008-02-01 03:55 pm UTC (link)
Apologies for teh funnays.

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[info]bluestareyed
2008-02-01 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I have seen some of that, and have been guilty of a bit of my own (i jumped down your throat once cause i thought you were attacking me, sorry about that:() and you are correct. I dont know, i havent been active here in a while and i have been a bit shocked lately at how much the intellectual end of the debate seems to have suffered.

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[info]cutout18
2008-02-01 05:05 pm UTC (link)
I've done it too. I'd like to rationalize it by saying, well, I was getting personal attacked first, but that doesn't help the whole "mature, rational debate" standpoint.

Frankly, I think damn near everyone on this forum has gotten the Ad Hominemitis. While I don't think debate should be deadly serious all the time (humor makes any kind of writing more readable), I don't think people should take it personally, or mean it personally. They're your ideas. You are not the sum of your ideas.

When someone says, "I don't agree with your views on abortion" or even, "I think you're flat wrong with what you say," whoever it is, it really shouldn't be taken as "You're stupid" or "fat" or anything like that. There's a lot of 'reading into what people really mean' that goes on here, and that kind of speculative rhetoric is dangerous, inflammatory, and a key problem with any political discourse these days. In a debate, words are to be taken at face value, is what I think.

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[info]mrs_slats
2008-01-31 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Yep. I'm just as wishy-washy in person.

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[info]zingerella
2008-01-31 08:37 pm UTC (link)
Part of the reason I hang out here is that debate is encouraged. Among my family, we avoid contentious topics, which leads to rather bland discussions. Among my friends, well, we tend to agree about pretty fundamental things. That said, I tend to express things here pretty much the way I do face-to-face, albeit, online I can actually get an entire sentence or argument out without interruption.


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[info]lilyforthewin
2008-01-31 08:42 pm UTC (link)
So my questions is, is everything you say on abortiondebate what you feel exactly?

Yep, or as near as I can articulate it.

Do you think the style of discussion makes it easier for your judgement to get clouded or for you to take a position out of stubborness?

Not really, because even at my most vitriolic I never actually lose sight of what's important to me with regard to abortion. That's not to say I'm not stubborn, but I don't take positions based on that stubborness. Furthermore, this community is moderated and it's really tame compared to some places I've been. It's also one of the fairest I've found online.

Do you express you views differently in real life?

In real life I am very polite because the person I'm debating with could always reach over and deck me. Actually, I've been told I am a pleasure to converse with.

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[info]jcross
2008-02-01 03:14 pm UTC (link)
"In real life I am very polite because the person I'm debating with could always reach over and deck me. Actually, I've been told I am a pleasure to converse with."

Ha ha. A+ for honesty.

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[info]lilyforthewin
2008-02-01 04:00 pm UTC (link)
The other catch, of course, is that none of the people I would consider to be my "close" real-life friends are pro-life, so I rarely if ever debate abortion. I stick to politics, the environment, and religion. And I never, never bring up any of those topics in mixed company, as I consider it the height of rude.

Of course, I'm sure I know people who are pro-life. Considering that my hobby is reenacting the revolutionary war and it's a hugely conservative crowd, it's pretty much a guarantee. But I don't advertise my beliefs in that circle for those reasons...

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[info]amaterasu_no_ki
2008-01-31 09:47 pm UTC (link)
I do say what I feel, exactly, on abortiondebate. And I believe just the opposite, as someone else said -- the style of debate here makes it easier for me to find/supply sources for what I say, think about what I'm typing first, for me to consider the other perspective wholly (as I'm reading it), etc. Discussing in person leads to escalated situations, so I'm probably more vocal online about the way I feel than I am IRL, although that's about to change. Plus, most of the people I hang out with IRL are pro-choice, so there's rarely this problem...

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[info]gemfyre
2008-01-31 09:52 pm UTC (link)
I express my views more often on the internet (including here) than I do in real life. I think because online I have time to think over what I want to say. In real life I can never find the words to express what I want to say right away so usually I just throw my hands up in frustration and keep my mouth shut.

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[info]queenlyzard
2008-02-10 09:05 pm UTC (link)
love the icon.

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[info]lavendersparkle
2008-01-31 10:00 pm UTC (link)
The thing I find really bizarre and amusing is that I interact with quite a few people on here in other forums and I always wonder whether they connect the nasty "anti-choicer" on here with the progressive feminist on the other communities. I know there are people who drive me crazy on here but I get on quite well with in other communities.

In terms of discussions, I think that this community is reasonably tame. A lot of my friends are pro-choice and if it comes up I'll talk about my views on abortion and even tease them about theirs in ways I wouldn't on here. Of course, being English we generally don't talk about that sort of thing very much.

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[info]puf_almighty
2008-01-31 11:25 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, if I recall correctly it's actually got a name- the anonymity effect. Part of the reasoning behind road rage, too. People are psychopaths when they think there's no possible consequences for their actions- literally, that's pretty much the DSM-V definition.

Internet also enables groupthink by allowing people to expose themselves only to people who agree with them, no matter how wacky their views. So put those two together, then throw the results in a community dedicated to arguing over a wedge issue, and you can expect hate and irrationality.

I pretty much say what I feel exactly, here, because it doesn't matter if someone disagrees.

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[info]silver_omicron
2008-02-01 01:13 pm UTC (link)
I hate to nitpick but I'm pretty sure DSM-V isn't due out for another three years.

Haha, I'm sorry, it's just I just finished my Psych course and it talked about all that stuff.

Fascinating, really.

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[info]puf_almighty
2008-02-01 01:51 pm UTC (link)
Yeah I noticed that. Whoops!

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[info]choclytgremlins
2008-01-31 11:58 pm UTC (link)
I argue on here pretty much the way I do on real life. I can't be too vicious, as my boyfriend disagrees with me at least somewhat on the issue, as do many people with whom I am close.

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Off topic tangent...
[info]lavendersparkle
2008-02-01 09:26 am UTC (link)
I'm curious how you deal with this and how it makes you feel. My first boyfriend didn't see abortion as unethical. It's only now that I'm in a relationship with someone who is against abortion that I realise how uncomfortable my previous boyfriend's views on abortion made me. If I had become pregnant whilst with my first boyfriend I would have felt enormous pressure to have an abortion because not doing so would have involved making decisions that deeply affected him and he wouldn't have made. I feel a lot more comfortable with my current partner beause I know that we're on the same page and if I were to become pregnant ther'd be no tension over how to proceed.

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Re: Off topic tangent...
[info]choclytgremlins
2008-02-01 08:28 pm UTC (link)
Well, he and I are an interesting case anyway. Seeing as how I'm an atheist/agnostic (depends how I feel that day) and he's studying to be a Baptist minister, abortion is somewhere near the bottom of our list of problems XD.

However, he has repeatedly insisted that if everything were to go wrong and I got pregnant, though he would certainly like to contribute some input, the final decision will be mine, and while he may not like it, he will support me no matter what it is. Of course, when you put it like that, I'd probably be less likely to have an abortion - when people go out of their way not to make me feel guilty about something, it tends to make me feel more guilty.

I don't generally let it bother me - we practice extremely safe sex (in the sense that we use three different methods of birth control) and the chances of anything happening are very slim. But I can see where especially a pro-life woman would be uncomfortable making those kinds of decisions with a pro-choice man. I'm glad you're more comfortable now.

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Re: Off topic tangent...
[info]lavendersparkle
2008-02-03 08:08 am UTC (link)
Well, he and I are an interesting case anyway. Seeing as how I'm an atheist/agnostic (depends how I feel that day) and he's studying to be a Baptist minister

My partner is hoping to begin training to become an Anglican minister this autumn and I'm a convert to Judaism.

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Re: Off topic tangent...
[info]choclytgremlins
2008-02-03 04:38 pm UTC (link)
Very nice...I've spent a long time trying to convince people that religious differences are not a perfect impediment to relationshios, and it's nice to see someone in a similar situation.

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Re: Off topic tangent...
[info]lavendersparkle
2008-02-03 09:48 pm UTC (link)
There's a community called [info]interfaithunion which, well, does what it says on the tin.

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Re: Off topic tangent...
[info]superlily74
2008-02-03 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Opposite situation, but I agree - for me, abortion is definitely a necessary issue to agree on in a relationship. My partner is pro-choice and I couldn't have it any other way; if I became pregnant I would be inclined to choose abortion (at this point in my life) and I would not want to deal with the ensuing problems from the situation if the person who got me pregnant opposed abortion. It's difficult enough to know how I would feel in such a situation regardless of political beliefs, but at least my partner and I have discussed the possibilities and are on the same page at this point.

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[info]bluestareyed
2008-02-01 12:30 am UTC (link)
I actually make it a point on here to argue the same way i do person to person. I do this on this forum and others because i value having a debate space that is not muddled up by personal attacks, and where supporting your argument is encouraged by all sides of the debate. Yeah, things get a bit out of control sometimes, but I generally avoid those because once it becomes a flame war where no one is actually bringing up points, its boring.

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[info]scorpi084
2008-02-01 04:21 am UTC (link)
I stopped lying on the internet around the time I graduated from high school. I do self-censor in my real life a little more, just because not everyone around me is quite as radical as I am, and I have to deal with those people on a regular basis and would like it to not be ugly and confrontational. But I stand behind everything I can remember having said on this forum, and others like it.

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[info]silver_omicron
2008-02-01 01:12 pm UTC (link)
Not at all.

You wouldn't be able to recognize me in real life. I articulate myself very different, IF I ever open my mouth.

But I change things up depending on the person, so one me is only, truly, one facet to me. Yes, i'm crazy.

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[info]lilyforthewin
2008-02-01 05:20 pm UTC (link)
But I change things up depending on the person, so one me is only, truly, one facet to me. Yes, i'm crazy.

I don't think that's crazy. I think we all do it, to some extent.

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[info]silver_omicron
2008-02-01 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Well... there's a little more to it.

But I certainly don't disagree with you, for the most part.

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[info]commanderd
2008-02-02 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Anyone who knows me in person knows I am just as stubborn, if not more so, in real life.

And I have stated my views on abortion very clearly, usually when being hassled by my baby-rabid inlaws about when I'm going to reproduce (never) and what then I would do if an 'accident' happened.

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