Amelia ([info]sochinbi) wrote in [info]_scientists_,
@ 2008-02-12 20:09:00
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What do you wish you would have known before you went to graduate school?

I'm heading out to several universities in the next two months for visitation/recruitment weekends for chemistry PhD programs (analytical).  As I've already been accepted into the programs, these are not interviews but, as I understand it, times for me to ask as many questions as possible and get to know the people with whom I might be spending the next 5-9 years of my life.  

I have a whole battery of questions I plan on asking, mostly the requisite, obvious ones that anybody in my position would ask.  I realize that there are probably a whole host of questions that I won't think to ask because I do have the experience of actually being in graduate school.

So, for those who are in or have been to graduate school in chemistry, or in general, is there anything you wish you would have asked about that would have made a big difference in your decision/expections for graduate school?

Also, because these questions might vary by institution and department, does anyone who is currently or has been in the chemistry (especially, analytical) PhD programs at Univ of AZ, Univ of Ill Urbana, Univ of Wisc Madison, Univ of NC Chapel Hill, Purdue Univ., or Univ of WA have anything in particular that they wish they would have known prior to enrolling?

Thanks!


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[info]roh_wyn
2008-02-13 04:41 am UTC (link)
I have a PhD in analytical chemistry, and of all the things I wish I had known before I started graduate school, I wish I had asked potential advisors about potential non-academic career choices. At the time, I think I believed that people would just be lining up to hire me when I was done with grad school! :)

I also wish I had asked about the potential for attending conferences, presenting my work, networking with investigators at other institutions, etc. My advisor was terrific, but also notoriously cheap. In five years of grad school, I only went to two conferences, and only one was a large, national meeting. The lack of exposure seriously affected my ability to find a good post-doc position, and soured me on academics in general.

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[info]markovnikov
2008-02-13 04:50 am UTC (link)
Wow, you're visiting every one of your schools? I'm only visiting my top few choices. :(

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[info]lapenn
2008-02-13 05:05 am UTC (link)
I have no idea how to go about doing this via asking questions . . . but, in my opinion, the #1 most important thing is making sure that you have a good fit with your advisor. by this, I mean that

-> you get along with your advisor
-> you have a similar way of approaching a thought process (for example, does the advisor like to sit around and have brainstorming sessions, or would the advisor prefer you come to him/her with a thorough proposal written up first?)
-> you have similar research goals, and your advisor is open to the possible avenues you might go down
-> that you have similar thoughts about where your career goals might head. for example, does your advisor envision all his/her students eventually going into academia? Is the advisor cool with supporting you in a quest for a private sector job? Basically, does your advisor have pre-formed expectations for how his/her students will turn out?

I will say that I am leaving grad school because of the problems with my advisor. He expects his students to be more research-oriented and not teaching oriented, whereas I came to grad school intending to be a teaching prof (my mistake, likely -- I should not have gone to an R1 grad school). He and I also have different ways of thinking through ideas, and that proved to be a problem; he saw my way of going about things as "wasting time," but brainstorming and just chatting was always how I came up with research ideas in undergrad.

So, yeah, I definitely think advisor fit is super important. If I ever decide to go back to grad school, I will consider advisor fit even more important than the exact research topic I'm doing.

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[info]silversliver
2008-02-13 06:17 am UTC (link)
I wholeheartedly second this comment. My former advisor was even apprised of my goals in education before I came into the lab, paid lip service to helping me meet them, and did his damnedest to force me out of the group when I demonstrated I was not interested in working in industry. Bonus: he didn't like women or gay people either, so I had a whole mess of red Xs next to my name. My new advisors are awesome.

Ask if the PIs have a history, what sort of jobs students tend to get upon graduation, and how they handle students with goals in education (get an idea of liberal arts vs. graduate-degree-granting vs. R1 institutions too -- students may be treated differently on this basis). Ask about programs that will get you formal education on teaching. It might also be good to ask if students would rate their department on the whole as functional or dysfunctional.

For your final pick, I'd choose a school where you could see yourself working with several different PIs, just in case something catastrophic happens or you find out something unsavory about PI A once you're there but before you've signed on.

I think there was a post on this topic about a year ago as well. If you look through the archives, you should find it. 'Tis the season, after all!

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[info]lapenn
2008-02-13 01:29 pm UTC (link)
oh, I totally agree. Excellent additions. My PI has been similar. I was really upfront upon coming in about what goals I had -- heck, I stated them in my statement of purpose. I was upfront about not having an exact direction to go in. I feel like I was really honest going in, and my PI never said anything about things being concerning. Then, he had one talk with me during my entire first year about his concerns on my progress (okay, maybe two).

Then, in the middle of prelims, he says that he doesn't think I'll pass, he doesn't like working with me, and I should put prelims off for a year. I continued. I didn't pass (well, I passed the knowledge portion but not the research portion). And now I'm leaving, since I didn't follow the advice to make sure that there were multiple PIs to work with.

Perhaps, in a few years, I might go back. I'm unsure. But I need a little time off now.

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[info]planetsalign
2008-02-13 08:35 am UTC (link)
Advisor meaning what?

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[info]lapenn
2008-02-13 01:32 pm UTC (link)
in my department, an advisor is pretty much the same as your PI. Your advisor is the person who ends up being the chair of your thesis. We don't call it PI because it's not always a whole lab effort toward a unified research goal. Also, I'm a field ecologist, so we only have a little microscope room on campus. Otherwise, we do all our lab work out at a few field labs.

It's just the convention where I am to talk about your advisor rather than to talk about your PI. The advisor doesn't just direct lab-run research; the advisor also helps you with classes, works you through prelims, etc.

Another potential difference (not sure if this is universal) is that advisors here don't tend to dole out research projects. In a few labs, the advisors will give a general direction to students about what they should be doing. In my lab, my advisor would not give me a project, nor a direction, nor anything really. He wanted to be there to help me finesse methodology, but that was utterly useless when my research ideas were just "I like ecology, and I'm interested in foraging and, uh, yeah." He expected me to be an expert in the literature at the end of my first term. It was somewhat disheartening, and, honestly, I probably was not prepared for R1 caliber grad school.

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[info]bitterpoetry
2008-02-13 06:06 am UTC (link)
Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt; I'm a somewhat bitter (physics) grad student at this point. First, you need to look at the departmental requirements. What do you have to do to pass quals? Are they written exams? Are they oral exams? How many times do you get to take them? What's the pass/fail rate on the exams (aka, do they use them as some kind of weeding tool, or do they trust their admissions committee?) How many courses do you have to take? Do you get to choose the courses or are they set in stone? When are you expected to join a research group? The minute you set foot on campus? After the first year? How are you funded (external fellowships? departmental fellowships? teaching? research?) What's the average time for completion of a Ph.D.?

Things to think about when looking for an adviser:
Do they have funding?
Are there grad students in the group whom you can pump for information? [aka, is the adviser sane (definition of sane is up to you; one man's sane is another's crazy)? you can also find out about the adviser's quirks this way as well]
Non-tenured profs publish lots, but have lots of pressure on their grad students to perform.
What type of environment do you do well in? Lots of supervision? Little supervision? Does the adviser's management style work for you?
Is the adviser doing research that you like?

Other:
Can you live in that area for the next 5 years? (aka don't move to Wisconsin if you hate snow)
What's the cost of living in the area?
Does the university have student organizations that you are interested in/would like to participate in (aka intramural sports)

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[info]planetsalign
2008-02-13 08:47 am UTC (link)
Grad school takes five years how?
Can you give me an idea of a course layout?

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[info]flyingapple
2008-02-13 09:14 am UTC (link)
If you are in a research-driven field, you will only spend the first year or two in classes - after that, you will be doing research full-time, until you have accomplished enough to defend a thesis (ie, until your adviser lets you go)

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[info]narfenugen
2008-02-13 07:55 am UTC (link)
Ugh.. so many things.
I wish I'd know that I was in a small entering class and wouldn't be able to break into last year's clique. I also wish I'd known that I'd generally be working by myself and that I wouldn't be interacting with people as part of my work. I like having friends but grad school isn't providing me with any, so I'm not a big fan of that.

I wish I'd known more about my advisor and how work-o-holic he is. My project requires someone keep an eye on some stuff 7 days a week for 6 months of the year. My advisor honestly thinks it's reasonable that I do this monitoring all by myself since it's not all day on the weekends. I'm just not that career-oriented and I've got a life outside of school. So, that combination has lead to some headache. Either I feel overworked or I feel like I'm cutting corners. If I'd known my advisor's expectations, I would have never signed up to work with him.

I'd consider things like the following:
-Are you an your advisor on the same page about supervision of work?
-Do your advisor's work expectations mesh with your desire to work?
-Do you and your advisor have the same timeline for graduation? (I.e. if they think it'll take you 10 years to get out and you want to be out in 6 that's a problem).
-What's your advisor's track record for getting students graduated?
-Will you get to work with peers and/or members of the community?
-Do you like the location?
-Are their restrictions on when you can vacation? Is it okay to take a couple days off during a busy research time to attend a wedding, etc?

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[info]flyingapple
2008-02-13 09:23 am UTC (link)
Some other things you should make sure the department reps make clear to you (and double-check with current grad students at the school to make sure its accurate) are money and benefits. The price of everything is going up, and education and science funding are generally going down - and you have to survive on a stipend for 5+ years. Make sure they have a plan for stipend increases, and ask the students if they are living comfortably on the stipend they are getting now - and if they could afford to earn less. Also ask students about quality of medical care, and how often they have heard of students getting screwed. You are probably not going to find any place ideal, but it might help you avoid disaster.

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[info]ecogryff
2008-02-13 09:37 am UTC (link)
Several people have mentioned it, but I can't emphasize it enough: I wish I would have known that my research would not teach me any useful skills for getting a non-academic job in my intended field. I did tell my advisor from the very beginning that I had no desire to stay in academia, but I don't think that it ever really sunk in for him. I know he never realized until today (literally today...over a week after submitting my thesis) that his precious research that I've been doing for the past five years has given me no saleable skills.

Just a note, I don't really know that much about either department, but my sister did her PhD in analytical chemistry at University of WA (she did the combined MS / PhD program in the Synovec lab)...and her undergrad at University of AZ.

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[info]quistak
2008-02-13 12:32 pm UTC (link)
I visited Purdue and my best friend went to UNC-CH, but just left with her MS... didn't feel like it was worth it.

I go to Penn State where I'm a 3rd year. One thing I made sure to do was choose my advisor carefully. I started looking back in October of 2004 (I entered grad school in fall 2005). You've got to like the advisor and the research. Once I chose my advisor, I made sure to email her and tell her how interested I was. We started a dialog, which ended up with me coming to work for her the summer before grad school started, and everything is still dandy.

Of course, I had a bit of luck that she didn't turn out to be some ogre after I started working for her. But I helped myself by really looking hard beforehand.

Also, get to know your incoming class. They are the ones who will suffer along with you when it comes to classes, teaching, staying up way too late and getting stir-crazy your 1st year, etc. I was lucky to have come in with PSU's biggest class ever (55!), so I have a big network to fall back on.

Looking at UNC, I'm glad I didn't go, from hearing the plight of my best friend. She said that the analytical people work so hard there that after 1st year orientation, she hardly saw them again (she was inorganic). However, some people love it there, so you've really got to feel it out for yourself. They require an oral exam during your 2nd year in which each of your committee members gets 20 minutes to ask you questions, and then they evaluate you on how you do. Then in your 3rd year, you have to come up with a research proposal on your own that isn't related to your work and defend it before your committee.

Purdue was ok; I liked staying at the place on campus, and I actually met one of my to-be classmates there. One thing that did turn me off though was the prospect of qualifying exams, which the grad students at my undergrad had to go through, so I heard all the whines. Additionally, when it comes to analytical, I found them a bit pretentious. They gathered us all into a room and said "You are in the presence of the best analytical school in the country! Don't listen to what US News says, we're above UNC!" Seriously?

I also found that I didn't want to do straight analytical-- MS isn't for me. I now do interdisciplinary stuff, which I love.

Good luck! You should update us on where you decide to go.

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[info]evil_admiral
2008-02-13 01:09 pm UTC (link)
I wish I had know that my MS (assigned defacto) advisor would be as helpful in planning my MS course of study as a sack of potatoes. Actually, the potatoes would have been more helpful probably.

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[info]zandperl
2008-02-13 03:58 pm UTC (link)
I wish I'd known more about the biases (racism and sexism) in the graduate program chair before I started my program. And I wish I'd thought to ask how much the grad students published and picked my advisor based upon that.

I was in astro.

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[info]ignis
2008-02-13 04:33 pm UTC (link)
How to pick a better advisor. I ended up with a very unhappy young professor and he took his frustrations out on me.

I lasted a year.

There is some good advice stuff from Science Magazine
http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_development/career_stage/graduate__1

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[info]micat
2008-02-13 08:06 pm UTC (link)
I haven't read the other posts, but here my two cents anyway:

If you don't want to stay in research/uni check if your PhD topic has connections/funding from industry. Might be useful afterwards, even if only on your CV.


Check the latest paper of the group _on_the_topic_of_your_thesis - not anything else. Ask about publications, and when you could start publishing. If the answer is - after one year, you might have calibrated the setup and start taking measurements, you should think twice. ...

Try to find out how long an average PhD takes at the group. I'm in europe, and a PhD might take from 3 to 6 years. This depends on the person of course, but also on the advisor.

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[info]darkecology
2008-02-13 09:09 pm UTC (link)
Some of this reiterates the above, but...

1) I wholly, wholly repeat the "make sure your advisor is a good fit" advice. I'm having problems with mine and I wish I had had more info coming into the program about him.

2) Count how many people are in the lab. Next, how many are close to graduation? Stay away from labs that have lots of people and no graduation in sight.

3) Take your potential future lab mates out for a beer WITHOUT the advisor and ask them what the lab is REALLY like. This might be your only way to find out about problems in the lab that will really affect you later. I wish I would have done this - it would have saved me a lot of headaches and stress.

4) Find out - preferably from both the advisor and the lab members - what a typical week is like.

5) Will you be expected to get your own funding?

6) I would try to get a feel for the city you would be living in, too, and make sure you can live with it for several years.

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[info]scourgeotheseas
2008-02-14 03:32 am UTC (link)
I ditto #3 - get the students alone and ask their honest opinion. They might not tell you the truth, but it's likely you'll pick up on any undercurrents.

While I agree advisor fit is a #1 priority, in my case the advisor basically underwent a personality change around year 2. (All 5 of her students thought so). So what I signed up for/came in with was nowhere near the advisor I had to finish with.

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[info]ladyserephina
2008-02-13 09:22 pm UTC (link)
Put me on the list of people who had to leave grad school because of problems with an advisor.

To that end-- Ask questions like:

What happens if I have a problem with my advisor?
What are my avenues of complaint? Is there a system of redress for my complaints? If I find myself in my fifth year, and my advisor has decided he doesn't like (American) women, what do I do? Can I rotate through another lab? Can I file a complaint against that person? What, as a department, are you going to do to make sure that I can finish my degree, and not be stopped by the prejudices and choices of my advisor?

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[info]amariem25
2008-02-13 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Ask about the requirements for the courses, and the written and oral exams. What happens if you don't pass them? How many students leave with a conditional masters degree (meaning they probably couldn't stand the program so they didn't want to stay in it a few more years for the PhD).

Ask about the health care plan for students. And if the school provides free counseling. Mine does not, and I wish I had known that earlier. Sure would help to have counseling or just someone to talk to when your advisor turns out to be a jerk and classes and research are not going well.

Ask about the commaderie between the students. Is there a large incoming class? The class at my school was super small and all the students are really cliquey and it's hard to make friends. So watch out for schools like that.

Also, make sure there are things to do outside of grad school. Are there clubs you can join for fun? Are there other things to do in the town/city? Do students have weekends off generally? How much freetime do they get outside of the lab?

Ask about housing options - do students buy houses/townhomes/condos, or do the majority rent?

Does the school provide discounted public transportation passes? Or do students live within walking distance? If you have to drive, is there somewhere for you to park? Paying $3+ a day to park in a ramp on campus will add up fast!


That's all I can think of for now. Good luck with your visits!

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[info]jennekirby
2008-02-14 12:41 am UTC (link)
Talk to students! Talk to students! Talk to students! And not just the student(s) who are officially paired up with you during the university's courtship of you.

I didn't talk to any grad students other than the ones who took me out to lunch on the department's dime when visiting my first grad school, and I only found out when I got there that everyone was miserably. Don't just ask, "Do you like it here," but ask about whether the requirements of the department seem useful or obnoxious, what their favorite and least favorite parts of being in the program are, whether they'd actually recommend you go there, whether they enjoy working with your prospective advisor, how hopeful they feel about jobs coming out...

Statistics about all these things are great, and totally worth asking the graduate coordinator about, sure, but it is really good to have a sense of what the going mentality among grad students is. Of course, everything can be impacted by a good day or a bad day, and some people are naturally more positive or negative than others, so take it all with a grain of salt, but remember, these will be the people around you every day, and their view of the department almost certainly will impact you.

And, of course, all the other things people mentioned are important too. :)

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[info]lagarconne
2008-02-14 01:46 am UTC (link)
I went to U of I for 2 years and LOVED it! It is a damn cool college town. I took gen chem for majors and O chem, and my impression is that they might demand a lot of teaching from grad students.

The campus is beautiful and has everything you'd ever need... possibly short on parking spots (most ppl walk or bike), but not impossible. Housing is wicked cheap.

The drawback is its distance from chicago/st.louis both 3-4 hours drive.

have fun!!!!

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[info]norepi
2008-02-15 03:25 am UTC (link)
I'm at Purdue. Not in analytical chemistry, though. I'm a medicinal chemist, but I did three rotations in the chemistry department and thus know quite a bit about the workings of it.

Even though the "honeymoon period" is over, I love my lab, and I think my advisor's fantastic. He's positive and supportive and has no problems telling his students to take breaks and pace themselves. As a result, everyone who works for him really likes working for him and is self-motivated. One thing I learned from all of this is that you can't always believe what the older grad students say when you're asking about certain PIs; mine got badmouthed by someone who was bitter over research woes, and some terribly unfortunate things were said about him. I often think it's best to trust *your* instincts in this respect. If someone seems like a jerk, more than likely they probably *are.* Sometimes when you talk to people, red flags just fly up; do not ignore these, because if you don't jive well with your advisor, things will be really, really miserable.

As far as Purdue's concerned, I'm at the very end of my second year, however, and I'm totally burned out on classes. Some of the classes in the chemistry department here are *preposterously* hard, but maybe that's just in organic, and I have a pre-existing problem with stress/anxiety which makes things difficult sometimes.

The analytical program here is quite good, mind you, and most of the analytical people I know are very nice. However, first, the chemistry department here is a little old-school, or rather, some of the professors are, and they subscribe to that God-awful mentality that chemistry is something to be done "begrudgingly" (I do it because it's fun!) so you'd really have to be careful. The chemistry department doesn't allow lab rotations, which I think are really important for picking your advisor and a good lab to work in. If you're more into the biological side of analytical chemistry, getting in through the PULSe program here may be a viable alternative. Also, our two chemistry buildings are sort of in various stages of decay, which is unfortunate as we've got some real state-of-the art equipment.

Tell me, Amelia, what kind of analysis are you interested in?

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